Black Lives Matter

Law enforcement - white supremacist alliance confirmed

Shittenhouse arrested (if only for deescalation sake): https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/08/teenager-kyle-rittenhouse-arrested-charged-kenosha-shootings-200826180242065.html

  On 8/27/2020 at 6:12 AM, timbre monke said:

Shittenhouse arrested (if only for deescalation sake): https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/08/teenager-kyle-rittenhouse-arrested-charged-kenosha-shootings-200826180242065.html

They pretty much had to. Even if the major charges get dropped he's guilty of unlawful possession, breaking curfew, crossing state lanes with a weapon, etc. Cynically I expect some affluenza horseshit defense or mental illness (kid was clearly deluded and raised that way) and him being a lionized right-wing figure for life akin to Zimmerman or [insert pardoned convicted SEAL war criminal here]. That's worst case though.

The hot-headed prosecution going for 1st degree is idiotic.

The idea of a 17 year old kid running around unloading an assault rifle on protestors is such a mad premise.  And then when you add in endorsement by the cops... crazy.

I can't remember the last time I even saw a real gun. 

(edit... don't think I have ever seen an automatic rifle unless it was being discretely carried by an army soldier on the local air base near here.  Have seen shotguns for game hunting, don't think I have ever seen a real pistol).

Sorry, but USA is fucking crazy and I cannot even

This is the exact kind of thing that would cause a riot and it kind of seems like a precursor for much more vigilante justice, or chaos, basically. The opposite of law and order. Stupid all around. 

  On 8/28/2020 at 1:15 PM, Soloman Tump said:

The idea of a 17 year old kid running around unloading an assault rifle on protestors is such a mad premise.  And then when you add in endorsement by the cops... crazy.

I can't remember the last time I even saw a real gun. 

(edit... don't think I have ever seen an automatic rifle unless it was being discretely carried by an army soldier on the local air base near here.  Have seen shotguns for game hunting, don't think I have ever seen a real pistol).

Sorry, but USA is fucking crazy and I cannot even

Expand  

It's all a matter of perspective innit. Nearly everyone owns one in my state, myself included.

But you're not wrong. Trump has emboldened too many dangerous alt-right lunatics since he got elected.
 

  On 8/28/2020 at 1:27 PM, Candiru said:

This is the exact kind of thing that would cause a riot and it kind of seems like a precursor for much more vigilante justice, or chaos, basically. The opposite of law and order. Stupid all around. 

This election is gonna be like a powder keg for these assholes if Trump loses. But at this point we'll have to accept that risk.

  On 8/28/2020 at 12:50 PM, chim said:

The hot-headed prosecution going for 1st degree is idiotic.

there's multiple charges so something will stick hopefully.  i'm sure they'll try to prove his intent on traveling from another state etc etc.. but whatevers.. it's gonna be media spectacle. 

it seems like there's a good chance he'll be able to get off the 2nd killing, or at least plea it down to a much lesser charge (seems like he has reasonable case for self defence). 1st one might be a lot tougher to get out of though. will come down to the jury unless he pleas out the whole thing. the only thing they have him dead to rights on is a misdemeanour by the looks of things, he wasn't old enough to have the gun in the first place.

  On 8/28/2020 at 12:50 PM, chim said:

The hot-headed prosecution going for 1st degree is idiotic.

First degree homicide and first degree murder are different. You have to prove premeditation and intent for murder, so first degree homicide is apt for this case. He shot somebody in the head ffs.

  On 8/28/2020 at 7:39 PM, caze said:

it seems like there's a good chance he'll be able to get off the 2nd killing, or at least plea it down to a much lesser charge (seems like he has reasonable case for self defence). 1st one might be a lot tougher to get out of though. will come down to the jury unless he pleas out the whole thing. the only thing they have him dead to rights on is a misdemeanour by the looks of things, he wasn't old enough to have the gun in the first place.

He won't be able to claim self defense since he had just attacked a random person. However, since he's 17, they might be able to argue that he's a minor and get his sentence reduced for now and maybe expunged when he's 18.

Depends on how corrupt the court is.

The thing is, he was being chased and attacked in most definitions of the word. We don't know exactly what provoked the initial chase AFAIK. I don't think you can legally expect someone using self defense to be able to determine the lethal capacity of a pursuer and his thrown object, it all happened very fast, the video is very blurry and I didn't analyse it very closely. I don't think US self defense laws would expect you to anyway. 

You can probably get a murder (2nd degree? third degree? My understanding of American criminal law falters here) or manslaughter charge out of the fact that he traveled state lines without a justifiable motive other than to start shit. This will be difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt for the prosecution. As far as I understand it, you are entitled to move about as you please and defend other people's property, unsure what Wisconsin laws state here. But the unlawful gun charge is paramount. I noticed the initial social media reaction of the murder charge was that they'll lose the case from nobody being able to prove that particular charge, but I expect lesser charges will still have merit in the same procedure? 

FWIW as an isolated instance I think he did the right thing defending himself on the run from people trying to disarm him and bash his head in. But he had no business there and I don't buy the initial video and motivations. These people are clever enough to wash graffiti all day and bring a medkit to have an excuse to live target practice their AR15's. I really don't understand why you'd want to rush someone holding that weapon. 

I expect dominant right wing or left wing politics will guide the outcome either way. 

  On 8/29/2020 at 2:24 AM, chim said:

The thing is, he was being chased and attacked in most definitions of the word. We don't know exactly what provoked the initial chase AFAIK. I don't think you can legally expect someone using self defense to be able to determine the lethal capacity of a pursuer and his thrown object, it all happened very fast, the video is very blurry and I didn't analyse it very closely. I don't think US self defense laws would expect you to anyway. 

You can probably get a murder (2nd degree? third degree? My understanding of American criminal law falters here) or manslaughter charge out of the fact that he traveled state lines without a justifiable motive other than to start shit. This will be difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt for the prosecution. As far as I understand it, you are entitled to move about as you please and defend other people's property, unsure what Wisconsin laws state here. But the unlawful gun charge is paramount. I noticed the initial social media reaction of the murder charge was that they'll lose the case from nobody being able to prove that particular charge, but I expect lesser charges will still have merit in the same procedure? 

FWIW as an isolated instance I think he did the right thing defending himself on the run from people trying to disarm him and bash his head in. But he had no business there and I don't buy the initial video and motivations. These people are clever enough to wash graffiti all day and bring a medkit to have an excuse to live target practice their AR15's. I really don't understand why you'd want to rush someone holding that weapon. 

I expect dominant right wing or left wing politics will guide the outcome either way. 

Expand  

Murder doesn't fit because there's no intent or premeditation on a particular individual. Manslaughter doesn't fit because that's stuff like negligence (drunk driving, leaving your baby in a hot car etc). Homicide fits because there is intent to harm, but no premeditation for anyone in particular.

As far as the events go, from what I understand, the guy shot at someone and then the crowd tried to get his gun away from him. People in the crowd were protecting themselves. That fits self defense. If the shooter engages first, he won't be able to claim self defense since he's the instigator. They may, indeed, try to make that argument, but they would need to identify a solid precedence in order to make it stick.

  On 8/29/2020 at 2:41 AM, Braintree said:

Murder doesn't fit because there's no intent or premeditation on a particular individual. Manslaughter doesn't fit because that's stuff like negligence (drunk driving, leaving your baby in a hot car etc). Homicide fits because there is intent to harm, but no premeditation for anyone in particular.

As far as the events go, from what I understand, the guy shot at someone and then the crowd tried to get his gun away from him. People in the crowd were protecting themselves. That fits self defense. If the shooter engages first, he won't be able to claim self defense since he's the instigator. They may, indeed, try to make that argument, but they would need to identify a solid precedence in order to make it stick.

Expand  

Thanks for clearing that up, I didn't even know homicide was a separate class from the other two. The first video we have of the events is him being chased by the first victim who threw a bag at him and eventually got close enough to be shot in the head. I'm not sure if Kyle fired his weapon before this, is that new info? 

It's a sad sequence of events and these people shouldn't have to die (although the supposed paramedic false surrendering with a pistol in hand was really asking for that arm shot), but I'm fascinated by how evenly polarizing it is. It's not even far right vs left anymore, it's literally everyone either labeling him a murderer or hero, even here across the pond. 

Thanks Obama. 

  On 8/28/2020 at 5:32 PM, Valleyfold said:

Nothing is going to happen if Biden wins, a few months in he becomes a vegetable, Harris becomes the first woman president and we go back to neoliberal slumber. If Trump wins shit will really hit the fan. 

Yes, although we're going to see some sporadic Qanon and/or far-right violence in forms of shootings, terrorist attacks, etc. He's going to make a spectacle of leaving office too. If he legally gets elected I don't even want to imagine the empowerment of his base and their allies in office and in military and law enforcement are going to feel. I am most scared for those in deep red areas who can't leave.

  On 8/29/2020 at 4:22 AM, Rubin Farr said:

Expand  

Truly the most anodyne man alive.

  On 8/29/2020 at 2:41 AM, Braintree said:

As far as the events go, from what I understand, the guy shot at someone and then the crowd tried to get his gun away from him

That's not what the video I've been able to find has shown so far, maybe there will be more uncovered and available at the trial, but so far it looks like the first shot he fired was after he was being chased by the first guy who was shot, who lunged at him - maybe trying to take his gun, but you can't see clearly (someone else shot into the air with a handgun before that, not sure if this was one of the people involved in the 2nd shooting incident a few mins later). The second incident happened after he was running away, he stumbled and then got attacked by several people (he was kicked in the head, hit in the head with a skateboard, and then another guy came at him with a gun drawn) - he then shot the guy with the skateboard in the stomach, and the guy with the gun in arm. The fact that he was running away prior to getting attacked, in addition to having a reasonable fear for his life due being attacked and a guy drawing a gun on him, is what makes a self defence case seem at least somewhat reasonable. The first killing is far less obvious, as there doesn't appear to be much evidence that he could reasonably claim to be in fear for his life, getting chased by a guy and having a bag of rubbish thrown at him, doesn't seem likely to cut it - but we don't really know what happened to trigger the initial confrontation (the only video I've seen shows the first guy who was shot being very aggressive and shouting 'shoot me nigga' at him, but I didn't see why it escalated and caused him to leave and the other guy to chase after him). 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html

I'm not saying he deserves to get off, just that there's a reasonable chance he'd be able to convince a jury on at least some of the charges. It seems to me like everyone involved was a dumb asshole who would have been better off staying at home that night.

  On 8/29/2020 at 2:41 PM, caze said:

That's not what the video I've been able to find has shown so far, maybe there will be more uncovered and available at the trial, but so far it looks like the first shot he fired was after he was being chased by the first guy who was shot, who lunged at him - maybe trying to take his gun, but you can't see clearly (someone else shot into the air with a handgun before that, not sure if this was one of the people involved in the 2nd shooting incident a few mins later). The second incident happened after he was running away, he stumbled and then got attacked by several people (he was kicked in the head, hit in the head with a skateboard, and then another guy came at him with a gun drawn) - he then shot the guy with the skateboard in the stomach, and the guy with the gun in arm. The fact that he was running away prior to getting attacked, in addition to having a reasonable fear for his life due being attacked and a guy drawing a gun on him, is what makes a self defence case seem at least somewhat reasonable. The first killing is far less obvious, as there doesn't appear to be much evidence that he could reasonably claim to be in fear for his life, getting chased by a guy and having a bag of rubbish thrown at him, doesn't seem likely to cut it - but we don't really know what happened to trigger the initial confrontation (the only video I've seen shows the first guy who was shot being very aggressive and shouting 'shoot me nigga' at him, but I didn't see why it escalated and caused him to leave and the other guy to chase after him). 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html

I'm not saying he deserves to get off, just that there's a reasonable chance he'd be able to convince a jury on at least some of the charges. It seems to me like everyone involved was a dumb asshole who would have been better off staying at home that night.

Expand  

I assumed he illegally possessed that AR-15, as he is 17 years old, but apparently a lot of states allow a child to own a long gun.  Because America.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/27/in-30-states-a-child-can-still-legally-own-a-rife-or-shotgun/

  On 8/29/2020 at 4:33 AM, joshuatxuk said:

if Biden wins, a few months in he becomes a vegetable, Harris becomes the first woman president and we go back to neoliberal slumber.

Only if you let it go back to the neoliberal slumber. Substantive change to engrained systems requires sustained and concentrated effort. (josh, i realize this isn't your quote, just happened to copy it from your post).

  On 8/31/2020 at 6:14 PM, chenGOD said:

Only if you let it go back to the neoliberal slumber. Substantive change to engrained systems requires sustained and concentrated effort. (josh, i realize this isn't your quote, just happened to copy it from your post).

It's not but I agree completely, kudos to @Valleyfold for the succint take