On 6/15/2020 at 12:15 AM, marf said:

Why do people fight cops? It's not going to end well no matter what you look like. 

the rush, the adaptation, and the general revolutionary spirit of the act

  On 6/15/2020 at 4:58 AM, cyanobacteria said:

the rush, the adaptation, and the general revolutionary spirit of the act

denial of authority of some asshole w/a badge can be a pretty strong motive. 

I mean, they’ll fuck you up either way. Why not draw some blood?

60 minutes had an interesting piece on Tulsa/Greenwood and the massacre that no one is taught about.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/greenwood-massacre-tulsa-oklahoma-1921-race-riot-60-minutes-2020-06-14/

  Quote

 

Greenwood, 1921: One of the worst race massacres in American history

In 1921, a thriving black neighborhood in Tulsa, Oklahoma, burned, leaving hundreds dead.

 

Expand  

  On 6/15/2020 at 5:02 AM, doublename said:

I mean, they’ll fuck you up either way. Why not draw some blood?

and if it's one on one there's a chance you could win and get away... temporarily.  but it's generally a bad idea unless you have nothing to lose, are very wealthy with a good lawyer, have MMA like skills and can safely choke someone out and split before the back up gets there. 

if you're getting arrested you could always piss/shit/puke in the back of the car. it's the passive aggressive way to go. but they'll probably beat your ass for that too. 

  On 6/15/2020 at 1:09 AM, hijexx said:

 

Expand  

was ruled a homicide today. guy was shot twice in the back. seems like they could've just let him go and arrested him later or tomorrow. or perhaps shot him in the ass. i guess cops are drilled to shoot to kill and i'm guessing this cop will argue if they gave chase and tackled him he could've gotten his gone away from the officer or who knows what.  they had his car, his license etc seems like they could've follow up later. impounded his car but i think that would feel like a "loss" to them ya know.. they want to win and get the 'bad guy'.

what a shit show. no reason that guy should be dead. 

Homicide is a specific legal definition. A police officer shooting and killing a suspect is usually ruled homicide by the medical examiner.

  On 6/15/2020 at 5:23 AM, ignatius said:

shot him in the ass. i guess cops are drilled to shoot to kill

Police are trained to shoot at center mass, because it's the easiest to hit and because there is less chance of a bullet missing and hitting a bystander. That whole "shooting the gun out of someone's hand" is a movie fantasy.

Still, that guy should never have been shot. They had all his information, so they're going to get him on the DUI, resisting arrest, fleeing the scene, assault (with the taser), plus a bunch of whatever charges. In the heat of the moment all things go out the window. I don't want to add this one to the racist killings, unless it comes out that the dude who shot him had some back story. The cops were being perfectly reasonable with him up until he decided to resist (I'm not justifying the shooting because of the resistance as it was clear he was running away), so difficult to say that it was racially motivated.

  On 6/15/2020 at 6:07 AM, chenGOD said:

Police are trained to shoot at center mass, because it's the easiest to hit and because there is less chance of a bullet missing and hitting a bystander. That whole "shooting the gun out of someone's hand" is a movie fantasy.

Still, that guy should never have been shot. They had all his information, so they're going to get him on the DUI, resisting arrest, fleeing the scene, assault (with the taser), plus a bunch of whatever charges. In the heat of the moment all things go out the window. I don't want to add this one to the racist killings, unless it comes out that the dude who shot him had some back story. The cops were being perfectly reasonable with him up until he decided to resist (I'm not justifying the shooting because of the resistance as it was clear he was running away), so difficult to say that it was racially motivated.

Expand  

i think this is a case of the cop training taking over and poor judgement/snap decision but it's pretty difficult to know the cop's mind.  also, can't help but wonder if cops draw their weapon less often on white suspects? shrug. 

my brother was a cop for around 15 years. i recall him telling me they were not trained to wound when they have to fire their weapon. they drill them w/all kinds of scenarios "What if the suspect is high on PCP or "Alien Nation" drugs and gets up and rages out on you and takes your gun?" regardless i think there's a mindset of "stop the suspect" and not complying means OK to shoot which is ingrained in cop brains.  in 15 years my brother never had to pull his gun and only once thought he would have to.. when a massive 6+ ft 300+ pound dude was having some kind of mental break and was sitting naked in the middle of a busy 4 lane road. my brother kept his distance standing next to his vehicle and waited for back up. thankfully the guy was calm as a hindu cow and they talked him into handcuffs and got him a trip to the psych ward or whatever the equivalent of that is in north miami. 

i think the more recent trend of the "killology" talks from that fucking guy who does talks 200 days a year at police precincts have done a lot of damage. not that cops weren't trigger happy but these days they often reach for the most lethal weapon over some absolute bullshit. 

There are tens of thousands of cop/civilian interactions daily that don’t have violent or deadly outcomes.

To clarify, I’m just acknowledging ignatius’ brother’s experience. Not a commentary on the BLM movement or anything. Sorry

  On 6/15/2020 at 7:10 AM, ignatius said:

I recall him telling me they were not trained to wound when they have to fire their weapon.

You only pull your gun if you’re prepared to kill, is the usual phrase I think. More here: https://www.ajc.com/news/national/here-why-police-don-shoot-wound-the-case-deadly-force/IV4ohtIm6r8FaEMj78u1bO/

And yeah that guy giving all the “kill” talks and training sessions is out of his fucking mind. 
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/02/dave-grossman-training-police-militarization/

Some interesting info in this youtube on cop training. With some explanation about procedures and what goes on in peoples (including cops) minds. At points he is critical wrt current habits. Also note how he warns cops about bringing this stuff up in their unit. It's basically a guarantee to get another job.

He should offer beard training, that's quite the face bush

  On 6/15/2020 at 5:23 AM, ignatius said:

or perhaps shot him in the ass.

  On 6/15/2020 at 1:09 AM, hijexx said:

 

Expand  

Those policemen clearly lack the slightest common sense. Even I could have done a better job without any training. It's a disgrace

  On 6/15/2020 at 7:26 PM, dingformung said:

Those policemen clearly lack the slightest common sense. Even I could have done a better job without any training. It's a disgrace

It's super easy to say when you're not in the situation. They were completely professional up until the point they let the guy get a hold of the taser. Then the fight or flight response kicked in, knocking out the higher-level functions of the brain. Training and experience are the things that cancel that out.

Explain to me why they put him into handcuffs in the first place.

Once upon a time in grade 1, after recess, my friend told me he was going to become a cop when he was older and arrest me (we had some kind of playground dispute, presumably).  I was p sure he was full of shit though, and guess what?  Here we are 31 years later and he STILL hasn't placed me under arrest.

  On 6/14/2020 at 11:30 PM, chenGOD said:

And the whole “black people are killing each other at alarming rates” is such a straw man. How about looking at the underlying structural issues that turn black neighborhoods into ghettos, or that put black people into societal situations where addiction and crime are sometimes all that’s left. I’m not saying African-Americans don’t have any agency, but they face an uphill battle much steeper than you or I.  

Spot on. But don't forget that right wingers only think 'what'. Never 'why', 'how', 'when' etc.

  On 6/15/2020 at 12:15 AM, marf said:

Why do people fight cops? It's not going to end well no matter what you look like. 

The correct question is why do the cops want to fight people who aren't a threat to anyone. The problem is a lot of innocent people don't want to fight the cops, but the cops choose to fight (and sometimes kill) them. And there's a trend of this happening to black people in extremely disproportionate numbers and for reasons of pure ignorance.

There has been a tacit acceptance of this for the entire history of the police in the United States. It should never be accepted. There is a collective awareness of this that only gets louder and more numerous.

  On 6/15/2020 at 12:53 PM, goDel said:

Some interesting info in this youtube on cop training. With some explanation about procedures and what goes on in peoples (including cops) minds. At points he is critical wrt current habits. Also note how he warns cops about bringing this stuff up in their unit. It's basically a guarantee to get another job.

 

Expand  

He's a solid dude that guy. Been watching him for a while. No nonsense.

  On 6/15/2020 at 8:54 PM, dingformung said:

Explain to me why they put him into handcuffs in the first place.

After having a field sobriety test administered he blew a .108 on the breathalyzer. The legal limit is .08. It's a cop's discretion on whether you are arrested for DUI or not. You can be arrested for DUI even if you don't blow over the limit.

He was being arrested and placed in police custody at that point the cuffs were going on. Next step was probably going to be put into a police car and taken to jail for booking and a night in a cell to sober up.

Cuffs are used to mitigate the risk of a suspect's violent resistance. This suspect was ordered to put his hands behind his back. He knew what was coming and made the choice to resist arrest. He started fighting the officers, struck the officers, wrestled a taser away from one of the officers, discharged the taser into one of the officers, fled, turned and shot the other officer with the taser, then went down when fire was returned.

It's unfortunate it wound up this way. The privilege we have is being able to keep rewinding this video from multiple angles over and over. We get to read deliberative thoughtpieces and view detailed analyses on YouTube. The cops that handle these situations in real life when lives are at stake have to make these decisions in the moment.

I could also feed into this and armchair quarterback the play by play on whether this was a justified homicide but that's not up for me to decide. The jury will sort this out.

What I do know is that I still want drunk drivers arrested and I still want cops to pursue suspects that flee.

He was relatively calm and responsive. He also was under the influence of alcohol and probably drugs, also he just woke up from deep sleep. Being put into handcuffs can make you panic in such a situation. The cops' job is to deescalate and prevent harm. They could have talked to him calmly, make him go into the car, bring him to the precinct, let him sober up and then sort it out. Instead they decided to put him in handcuffs for no apparent reason. And then they were incompetent enough to let him take away a weapon from them. The way they tried to put him on the ground was amateurish. Every little girl who went to a karate course for half a year could do better

Maybe it's different in Germany, I dunno. Just not the way it works here. Being handcuffed is pretty standard police practice and not generally seen as anything out of the norm.

I dunno either. I just think that the policemen could have done a better job if they were trained to act rationally and competently in situations non-trained people couldn't. To stay on topic, I don't really see the racial aspect of it, though. None of their behaviour made me think their intentions were racially motivated but a mere result of poor training