The God Chemical

an interesting article on NPR today about new research on the similarities between chemically-induced psychedelic experiences and spiritual/mystical ones.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...oryId=104240746

personally, I'm all for experimenting with consciousness-altering substances for almost any reason, because we know very little about them, their properties are extroardinary and potentially extremely beneficial to humanity, and also because often we end up learning things about the workings of the human brain we weren't even looking for.

but I find the attempt to prove that eating acid or mushrooms is akin to fasting, meditation, self-mutilation, or whatever other means by which people claim to achieve "spiritual experiences" is a bit of a stretch. there is no way to quantify these "mystical experiences" (or even prove whether or not those claiming to have had them have truly had them); I did not find any instance in the article where the term "spiritual/mystical experience" was even defined.

any thoughts?

  doorjamb said:

an interesting article on NPR today about new research on the similarities between chemically-induced psychedelic experiences and spiritual/mystical ones.

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...oryId=104240746

 

 

personally, I'm all for experimenting with consciousness-altering substances for almost any reason, because we know very little about them, their properties are extroardinary and potentially extremely beneficial to humanity, and also because often we end up learning things about the workings of the human brain we weren't even looking for.

 

but I find the attempt to prove that eating acid or mushrooms is akin to fasting, meditation, self-mutilation, or whatever other means by which people claim to achieve "spiritual experiences" is a bit of a stretch. there is no way to quantify these "mystical experiences" (or even prove whether or not those claiming to have had them have truly had them); I did not find any instance in the article where the term "spiritual/mystical experience" was even defined.

 

any thoughts?

i don't think it's a stretch at all, in fact i think if you took a group of 200 random people on this planet and told them to fast, meditate, self mutilate or take high doses of psychedelics. The success rate of spiritual experiences for high doses of psychedelics would be far far higher than those via other methods.

and in my opinion i think a spiritual experience as they describe it is basically loosing one's own sense of self or ego

edit: i've always seen drugs like LSD and especially DMt to be like a 'game genie' for spiritual experiences. you don't have to do any work whatsoever like from meditation you just smoke a drug and for most people even if you are not religious you will have a spiritual experience.

  doorjamb said:

their properties are extroardinary and potentially extremely beneficial to humanity

Are they?

  Iain C said:

  doorjamb said:

their properties are extroardinary and potentially extremely beneficial to humanity

 

Are they?

do you deny that the properties of psychedelics are extroardinary?

do you claim that there is no potential for psychedelic substances to be beneficial to humans?

I think these drugs dip into the sub-conscious, whether that gets you closer to god I have no idea. I just think it brings in elements that helps understand life in different ways. Its not better or worse its just altering your perspective.

mushrooms just make me feel super happy, i cant see any possible way they could be considered beneficial. especially considering that you have to set yourself up in quite a nice place for them to cause that euphoria, if i go outside or meet people who arent on mushrooms i just feel odd.

  doorjamb said:

  Iain C said:

  doorjamb said:

their properties are extroardinary and potentially extremely beneficial to humanity

 

Are they?

 

 

do you deny that the properties of psychedelics are extroardinary?

 

do you claim that there is no potential for psychedelic substances to be beneficial to humans?

I didn't find them extraordinary, just tiring and eventually pretty boring. I'm sure they've got their potential benefits in therapy or whathaveyou, but you tell me: how do you think psychedelics are going to change the world? I'm not the one making sweeping statements and bold claims here.

  karmakramer said:

I think these drugs dip into the sub-conscious, whether that gets you closer to god I have no idea. I just think it brings in elements that helps understand life in different ways. Its not better or worse its just altering your perspective.

This is the sort of thing people generally mean when they say these drugs are "beneficial to humanity". Oh hooray, you understood something. Congratulations. Now let's solve world hunger or develop a source of renewable, reliable clean energy please.

the only way in which drugs like psychedelics can benefit the world is i think through depersonalization and breaking down one's barriers or boundaries. I believe more often than not psychedelics accomplish this more so than any other form of consciousness shifting (natural or synthetic). Whether you think this would amount to a benefit for people on this planet or not is a matter of opinion but i personally think it would be.

i'm also of the opinion that humans dream for evolutionary reasons and i also believe certain other forms of shifting our consciousness serve a utilitarian purpose as well. but of cour

so i think it's a little misguided to say that something that taps as strongly as psychedelics do into the human imagination could not benefit society. It would be like saying 'prove to me that imagination benefits society'

for me the potential good psychedelics offer far outweighs the negatives

but for course the idea of what benefits society is totally subjective. Ian C seems to be of the persuasion unless something can end world hunger it's not of much benefit to society.

I think since psychedelics break down one's preconceived notions of things, the more people who did psychedelics the less homogeny there would be in the world. i see that as a very good thing, other people probably see that as a very bad thing.

  Iain C said:

  doorjamb said:

  Iain C said:

  doorjamb said:

their properties are extroardinary and potentially extremely beneficial to humanity

 

Are they?

 

 

do you deny that the properties of psychedelics are extroardinary?

 

do you claim that there is no potential for psychedelic substances to be beneficial to humans?

 

I didn't find them extraordinary, just tiring and eventually pretty boring. I'm sure they've got their potential benefits in therapy or whathaveyou, but you tell me: how do you think psychedelics are going to change the world? I'm not the one making sweeping statements and bold claims here.

 

  karmakramer said:

I think these drugs dip into the sub-conscious, whether that gets you closer to god I have no idea. I just think it brings in elements that helps understand life in different ways. Its not better or worse its just altering your perspective.

 

This is the sort of thing people generally mean when they say these drugs are "beneficial to humanity". Oh hooray, you understood something. Congratulations. Now let's solve world hunger or develop a source of renewable, reliable clean energy please.

I don't think they are for everyone, but I think changing one's mind is changing the world. Your mind is everything because for all we know this could be the matrix. We could all just be asleep, dreaming for a very long time.

Maybe these drugs allow us to tap into that part of our brain, that doesn't otherwise get used.

Just don't abuse them and do them in circumstances that make sense.

  Iain C said:

This is the sort of thing people generally mean when they say these drugs are "beneficial to humanity". Oh hooray, you understood something. Congratulations. Now let's solve world hunger or develop a source of renewable, reliable clean energy please.

wtf... you can't do both?

considering the amount of people ive seen who really cant handle it for whatever reason and find themselves battered by seriously unpleasant feelings and visuals that leave them permanantly altered for the worse, id say that overall the bad outweighs the good. unless you are that person that can disconnect, and just realise that there is nothing that can happen in your own head that will ever really harm you. a tremendous amount of people cannot keep this train of thought after hallucinogens.

  karmakramer said:

I don't think they are for everyone, but I think changing one's mind is changing the world. Your mind is everything because for all we know this could be the matrix. We could all just be asleep, dreaming for a very long time.

 

Maybe these drugs allow us to tap into that part of our brain, that doesn't otherwise get used.

 

Just don't abuse them and do them in circumstances that make sense.

Maybe this, hypothetical that, subjective the other.

No doubt people can have personally valuable/spiritual/rewarding experiences on psychedelics... but assuming that most or even many people will suddenly experience enlightenment because they decided to try them is just ridonkulous.

  karmakramer said:

  Iain C said:

This is the sort of thing people generally mean when they say these drugs are "beneficial to humanity". Oh hooray, you understood something. Congratulations. Now let's solve world hunger or develop a source of renewable, reliable clean energy please.

 

wtf... you can't do both?

Sure you can, but which is providing more benefit? Or any real, tangible, difference in people's lives?

My point isn't that anyone doing psychedelic research should give it up and work for a clean water project... it's that one has a very obvious and direct application to the improvement of people's lives, and one frankly does not.

  Awepittance said:

i've always seen drugs like LSD and especially DMt to be like a 'game genie' for spiritual experiences.

ha, i like that metaphor. taking it further, i get immense pleasure from entering random codes into the game genie to see what happens...

  Quote

No doubt people can have personally valuable/spiritual/rewarding experiences on psychedelics... but assuming that most or even many people will suddenly experience enlightenment because they decided to try them is just ridonkulous.

i think it's pretty much guaranteed that if you fed a human with enough tryptamine at a certain point they would have no choice but to loose their ego. im not scientist but i would be willing to bet the results would be fairly consistent.

at this point its a subjective characterization to call this an 'enlightened' experience or something beneficially spiritual. other people might perceive at as the most terrifying horrific experience of their life. regardless i think the drug is still breaking down boundaries and preconceived notions and ideas, its the natural result of having ones sense of self completely dissolved.

If you think some people are better off from never experiencing what it's like to lose your sense of self i would strongly disagree.

  Iain C said:

Sure you can, but which is providing more benefit? Or any real, tangible, difference in people's lives?

Bettering yourself is making a tangible difference in people's lives. However small it may be.

I suppose I shouldn't do anything for myself then... because its not making any real tangible difference in people's lives.

Why are you even comparing drug use with being a humanitarian? If anything the most humane culture of people (i.e. hippies I guess, though they can be annoying) do take drugs.

if everyone in this world took acid once a year, the world would be a better place

there i said it

(maybe not young children though! :shade: )

  Awepittance said:

  Quote

No doubt people can have personally valuable/spiritual/rewarding experiences on psychedelics... but assuming that most or even many people will suddenly experience enlightenment because they decided to try them is just ridonkulous.

 

i think it's pretty much guaranteed that if you fed a human with enough tryptamine at a certain point they would have no choice but to loose their ego. im not scientist but i would be willing to bet the results would be fairly consistent.

 

at this point its a subjective characterization to call this an 'enlightened' experience or something beneficially spiritual. other people might perceive at as the most terrifying horrific experience of their life. regardless i think the drug is still breaking down boundaries and preconceived notions and ideas, its the natural result of having ones sense of self completely dissolved.

 

If you think some people are better off from never experiencing what it's like to lose your sense of self i would strongly disagree.

I've been there, thanks to ketamine, and I'd rather not return. No noticable benefit to my life, except an iron will never to experience anything like it ever again ever.

  karmakramer said:

  Iain C said:

Sure you can, but which is providing more benefit? Or any real, tangible, difference in people's lives?

 

Bettering yourself is making a tangible difference in people's lives. However small it may be.

 

I suppose I shouldn't do anything for myself then... because its not making any real tangible difference in people's lives.

 

Why are you even comparing drug use with being a humanitarian? If anything the most humane culture of people (i.e. hippies I guess, though they can be annoying) do take drugs.

Taking psychedelics does not necessarily "better yourself".

Your last point is irrelevant. I am comparing drugs and drug use with "humanitarian" concerns because I do not think the former counts as the latter.

I think a person needs a certain amount of intelligence to benefit from a hallucinogenic experience.

  Iain C said:

  Awepittance said:

  Quote

No doubt people can have personally valuable/spiritual/rewarding experiences on psychedelics... but assuming that most or even many people will suddenly experience enlightenment because they decided to try them is just ridonkulous.

 

i think it's pretty much guaranteed that if you fed a human with enough tryptamine at a certain point they would have no choice but to loose their ego. im not scientist but i would be willing to bet the results would be fairly consistent.

 

at this point its a subjective characterization to call this an 'enlightened' experience or something beneficially spiritual. other people might perceive at as the most terrifying horrific experience of their life. regardless i think the drug is still breaking down boundaries and preconceived notions and ideas, its the natural result of having ones sense of self completely dissolved.

 

If you think some people are better off from never experiencing what it's like to lose your sense of self i would strongly disagree.

 

I've been there, thanks to ketamine, and I'd rather not return. No noticable benefit to my life, except an iron will never to experience anything like it ever again ever.

not to nit pick but i don't think ketamine can have quite the same effect as a high dose LSD or DMT trip where you experience ego loss, but yeah if you don't like it you don't like it. psychedelics especially the dissociative anesthetic ones are not for everybody.Ketamine ego loss for me is more like a really opiate like grey total apathy, i wouldn't really call it 'spiritual' in the traditional sense.

  Awepittance said:

if everyone in this world took acid once a year, the world would be a better place

 

there i said it

 

(maybe not young children though! :shade: )

If anyone ever tried to make me take acid again I would punch them in the mouth.

Didnt read the whole thread, just thought Id say:

All of my veil busting, break through DMT experiences fit the bill for what people commonly refer to as a near-death experience, white light and everything. There is a good amount of research on the subject of natural DMT production and studies that suggest our brains release a massive amount of the stuff at the moment of our final breath. Given my experiences with that it is a very easy step to suggest religious/mystical experiences are nothing more than the release of a psychedelic chemical in the brain, or on the flip that these chemicals provide the architecture for an understanding of what 'god' is that exceeds our day to day cognition.

Man some of you just get me all wiley thinking about these things. I bet if we gathered together Awe, Hat, Dos, myself and are respective kits we'd have one hell of journey.

  The Pod said:

I think a person needs a certain amount of intelligence to benefit from a hallucinogenic experience.

That must be very comforting for you.

  Awepittance said:

if everyone in this world took acid once a year, the world would be a better place

 

there i said it

 

(maybe not young children though! :shade: )

I wouldn't go that far, because I know people who have had their lives ruined because of a bad acid trip... but I will say that the "War on Drugs" is doing the most harm because its changing our perception of the purpose for taking these drugs.

Its not to escape... well it might be for some people... for me though its simply a new experience/world that I at times want to explore. Its about learning and understanding.

Yes its all in your head, but if you think about it, so is everything else that infects our minds.

i believe all religious experiences ever recorded in history are either

A) lies

B) chemicals being ingested or naturally released in the brain

if you are of a scientific logical mindset these 2 choices are by far the most likely.

Im glad NPR is reporting things like this im surprised this very obvious concept is not more of a mainstream idea.

  Iain C said:

  The Pod said:

I think a person needs a certain amount of intelligence to benefit from a hallucinogenic experience.

 

That must be very comforting for you.

Pardon? I don't think a truly intelligent person needs hallucinogens in the first place...

  Awepittance said:

i believe all religious experiences ever recorded in history are either

 

A) lies

 

B) chemicals being ingested or naturally released in the brain

isn't B) something of a vacuous statement? if it's true it must apply to every experience, including a "scientific logical mindset," yes? it seems rather banal and not exactly explanatory.

juss sayin