The God Chemical

  Alcofribas said:

  Awepittance said:

i believe all religious experiences ever recorded in history are either

 

A) lies

 

B) chemicals being ingested or naturally released in the brain

 

isn't B) something of a vacuous statement? if it's true it must apply to every experience, including a "scientific logical mindset," yes? it seems rather banal and not exactly explanatory.

 

juss sayin

sorry i should have been more specific, i meant not the normal chemicals in our brains that attribute to our normal everyday lives. I mean things like DMT or plants being taken by people by accident or on purpose.

And i mean pretty much any traditional mystical experience or religious hallucination that's been documented through out time. but yeah i guess you could peel back anything farther and say we are all controlled by chemicals but i was trying to keep it in a specific context

  Awepittance said:

B) chemicals being ingested or naturally released in the brain

you shoulda quit while you were ahead..... that's like saying you enjoy music because the speaker coils vibrate...

  hahathhat said:

  Awepittance said:

B) chemicals being ingested or naturally released in the brain

 

you shoulda quit while you were ahead..... that's like saying you enjoy music because the speaker coils vibrate...

well now that 2 people have read very broadly into what i meant to say , i apologize for wording that so badly

just wanted to interrupt this thread to say that if you're into this sort of stuff I highly recommend this book:

Rational Mysticism - Spirituality Meets Science in the Search for Enlightenment

by John Horgan

http://www.amazon.com/Rational-Mysticism-S...t/dp/061844663X

John Horgan is a science journalist who's open to ideas but also able to apply a bit of reason

covers mysticism, leary's experiments, hallucinogenics (including the authors account of taking ayahuasca) and interviews with Huston Smith, Steven Katz, Bernard McGinn, Ken Wilber, Andrew Newberg, Michael Persinger, Susan Blackmore, James Austin, Albert Hofmann, Stanislov Grof, Terence McKenna, Alexander "Sasha" and Ann Shulgin.

there is also an in-depth look at The Good Friday Experiment of 1962, when LSD was given to volunteers by researchers, which is also mentioned in the article at the top of this thread.

Horgan's other book 'The undiscovered mind' is also really good.

  zazen said:

just wanted to interrupt this thread to say that if you're into this sort of stuff I highly recommend this book:

 

Rational Mysticism - Spirituality Meets Science in the Search for Enlightenment

by John Horgan

http://www.amazon.com/Rational-Mysticism-S...t/dp/061844663X

 

John Horgan is a science journalist who's open to ideas but also able to apply a bit of reason

looks very interesting, thanks for sharing i am looking forward to reading it.

grrr. right after I posted this topic my boss made me do a bunch of shit and I couldn't follow the discussion.

you have to remember that we don't really know very much about most psychedelic substances and the doors they open in our brains (or could possibly open if only we knew how to use them correctly). so yes, I still contend that there is a huge potential that one or more of them could prove to be extremely beneficial in some way we cannot yet predict.

the "trippiness" and "new point of view" aspects of them could very well be only the tip of the iceberg in terms of what we can do with some of these substances. they are amazing chemicals which affect the human body in ways no other known substances do, and yet people in general are afraid to find out more about them because they are also known to have bad consequences. I would argue that those bad consequences (bad trips, psychotic trauma, etc.) are largely a result of our lack of knowledge.

iain c, sorry but I suspect your position earlier in the thread has a lot to do with your unpleasant experiences with ketamine you mentioned (which is completely understandable).

forgot to say, my main issue with the article was that terms like "spiritual experience" were being thrown around without any definition. it felt to me like it was being taken for granted that these "mystical experiences" and narco-psychedelic experiences were the same thing, and I am not at all convinced they are at all.

Psychedelics have a strong potential to elicit near fascist tendencies in groups and aggressively ideological ones in individuals, imo. And I don't mean this to be condescending towards you awepittance, but the declaration, the world would be a better place if everyone took acid once a year, is itself as empty, abstract, and naively general as the one karmakramer states later about hippies being the most 'humane culture' of people. Which really just speaks to spite itself. And this isn't to entirely belittle the potential positive aspects of psychedelics (psycho-therapeutic use, for instance) but I'm just very skeptical in the context of the world of today and the history that has led up to it.

As far as individual realization or self-improvement, I don't think having an immediate 'spiritual experience' necessarily is more valuable or 'successful' than lasting, affecting change in one's everyday life - however that happens. Plus psychedelics and capitalism are a terrible mix. Your spiritual experience as commodity is reminiscent of the Catholic Church selling absolution during the Renaissance.

This is actually a 5 part series that will be running all week. I listened to it today as part of the All Things Considered program. I thought it was interesting. Science should definitely be looking into these compounds, why limit research on substances just because they're considered bad? Don't vaccines come from poisons?

Supposedly, Richard Alpert a.k.a. Baba Ram Dass went to India, gave an enlightened guru a shit-tonne of LSD and the guru was not affected at all.

:undecided:

  atropa said:

As far as individual realization or self-improvement, I don't think having an immediate 'spiritual experience' necessarily is more valuable or 'successful' than lasting, affecting change in one's everyday life - however that happens. Plus psychedelics and capitalism are a terrible mix. Your spiritual experience as commodity is reminiscent of the Catholic Church selling absolution during the Renaissance.

You're right, down with capitalism

  atropa said:

Psychedelics have a strong potential to elicit near fascist tendencies in groups and aggressively ideological ones in individuals, imo. And I don't mean this to be condescending towards you awepittance, but the declaration, the world would be a better place if everyone took acid once a year, is itself as empty, abstract, and naively general as the one karmakramer states later about hippies being the most 'humane culture' of people. Which really just speaks to spite itself. And this isn't to entirely belittle the potential positive aspects of psychedelics (psycho-therapeutic use, for instance) but I'm just very skeptical in the context of the world of today and the history that has led up to it.

 

As far as individual realization or self-improvement, I don't think having an immediate 'spiritual experience' necessarily is more valuable or 'successful' than lasting, affecting change in one's everyday life - however that happens. Plus psychedelics and capitalism are a terrible mix. Your spiritual experience as commodity is reminiscent of the Catholic Church selling absolution during the Renaissance.

Thanks for making sense. I'm interested to hear how you came about this opinion in particular:

  atropa said:

Psychedelics have a strong potential to elicit near fascist tendencies in groups and aggressively ideological ones in individuals, imo.

  Awepittance said:

edit: i've always seen drugs like LSD and especially DMt to be like a 'game genie' for spiritual experiences. you don't have to do any work whatsoever like from meditation you just smoke a drug and for most people even if you are not religious you will have a spiritual experience.

Push button.

Receive happiness.

  atropa said:

Psychedelics have a strong potential to elicit near fascist tendencies in groups and aggressively ideological ones in individuals, imo. And I don't mean this to be condescending towards you awepittance, but the declaration, the world would be a better place if everyone took acid once a year, is itself as empty, abstract, and naively general as the one karmakramer states later about hippies being the most 'humane culture' of people. Which really just speaks to spite itself. And this isn't to entirely belittle the potential positive aspects of psychedelics (psycho-therapeutic use, for instance) but I'm just very skeptical in the context of the world of today and the history that has led up to it.

 

As far as individual realization or self-improvement, I don't think having an immediate 'spiritual experience' necessarily is more valuable or 'successful' than lasting, affecting change in one's everyday life - however that happens. Plus psychedelics and capitalism are a terrible mix. Your spiritual experience as commodity is reminiscent of the Catholic Church selling absolution during the Renaissance.

I don't see how the culture of hippies "peace and love" is not one of the more humane cultures/sub-cultures... though of course there will always be a fair share of people within these groups that are hypocritical, the overall goal is agreed among them... whether they do anything about it, is another point.

My main argument was that drugs don't have the opposite/negative effects that people like to claim and that the movement in the 60's is evidence of this.

Whether people just waste themselves away on these drugs is up to their individual choice and as long as their behavior has no direct effects on anyone else in negative ways... then I say they should be allowed to do what they wish. This notion that we must serve others out of some common interest is basically saying everyone should surrender their own pursuits for the betterment of another...

I'd love to hear what you high horses are doing actively everyday to better a society.

One last point, I'd argue that the creation of something beautiful also helps people. There is a saying that "Rock n' Roll Saves Lives" and I think this to be very true. The power of music alone has helped me get through the tough days.

I've never suffered like some, but I think its unreasonable to conclude any stereotypical outlook as fact, we all have the ability to do anything, removing freedoms is really the main cause for shit in this world.

  atropa said:

Your spiritual experience as commodity is reminiscent of the Catholic Church selling absolution during the Renaissance.

one key difference, catholic church cannot offer someone an immediate spiritual experience like DMT. the catholic church requires faith and a specific belief structure, dmt does not.

I'd like to add that there are medical clinics in canada and mexico that distribute a substance called ibogaine that is very successfully treating people with severe addictions to heroine, meth, and alcohol in a very short period of time. The experience on ibogaine is very intense, long lasting (24+ hours), and introspective. It supposedly leaves the user free of their craving for drugs, and with the renewed mindset necessary to start a new chapter on life.

From what i understand (ive never tried one), those determined to try to get something out of the experience almost always will (which is one of the reasons ibogaine works so well). The type of experience you have is going to be extremely reliant on your mental health, circumstances, personality and preparation, when those things are given due respect and consideration, the chances of actually walking away with a worthwhile experience skyrocket.

With that said i think psychadellics have been and will continue to be very beneficial to the human population. We can optimize their benefits by broadening our understanding of how they work and ways we can healthily integrate them into our society and culture.

  42Orange said:

I'd like to add that there are medical clinics in canada and mexico that distribute a substance called ibogaine that is very successfully treating people with severe addictions to heroine, meth, and alcohol in a very short period of time. The experience on ibogaine is very intense, long lasting (24+ hours), and introspective. It supposedly leaves the user free of their craving for drugs, and with the renewed mindset necessary to start a new chapter on life.

 

From what i understand (ive never tried one), those determined to try to get something out of the experience almost always will (which is one of the reasons ibogaine works so well). The type of experience you have is going to be extremely reliant on your mental health, circumstances, personality and preparation, when those things are given due respect and consideration, the chances of actually walking away with a worthwhile experience skyrocket.

 

With that said i think psychadellics have been and will continue to be very beneficial to the human population. We can optimize their benefits by broadening our understanding of how they work and ways we can healthily integrate them into our society and culture.

Yes... and let me clear when I refer to the positives of "drugs" I am only referring to ones that are non-addictive (shrooms, weed, LSD).

Why is there still no C at the end of your name?

Alcofribas?

:confused:

  atropa said:

Psychedelics have a strong potential to elicit near fascist tendencies in groups and aggressively ideological ones in individuals, imo.

This is actually very true, because my behavior has become very much like that, and I realize it, but I don't believe there is any correct way to behave in this world at the moment, and me and my colleague's obsession has driven us to extremes, this civilization's passing is inevitable, reality is directly influenced by the human thought, time in our perspective is flawed and wrong, fractal geometry is the key, we will reach the spirits, ascend, yadda yadda, etc.

  atropa said:

Which really just speaks to spite itself. And this isn't to entirely belittle the potential positive aspects of psychedelics (psycho-therapeutic use, for instance) but I'm just very skeptical in the context of the world of today and the history that has led up to it.

one thing also i think you ought to take into account is that psychedelic drugs being very well known to the general public and widely available to them has never had a chance to happen in the history of human society.

My personal idea of taking acid once a year is a little extreme, and slightly in jest i haven't taken acid for over 6 years and i can't say i would be better off if i was to take it again.

But imagine if psychedelics were 1) widely available on the open market 2) legal and didn't have the overly propagandistic stigma attached to them and education about them was generally fair and honest. That scenario has not existed yet. The right and ability for any man or women to go a doctor or store or local post modern shaman and blow their mind and/or have a meaningful spiritual experience of their own choosing.

and if we are speaking about spirituality in the context of religions where the leaders of them profess the ability to speak with god or commune with spirits, there isn't a single traditional established religion that can instantly provide this scenario for most of it's first time converts besides a handful of tribal societies who ritualistically use psychedelic drugs or Tibetan dream yogis who practice lucid dreaming, but like meditation that also takes a lot of practice.

  Awepittance said:

if everyone in this world took acid once a year, the world would be a better place

i agree.

And someone in this thread has been really pissing me off the last couple of weeks, and I can't figure out why. It's really bothering me, and the fact that a person from a "net board" is bothering me bothers me even more, and the fact that I can't figure out why I'm so bothered, bothers me EVEN MORE!

  sneaksta303 said:

  Awepittance said:

if everyone in this world took acid once a year, the world would be a better place

 

i agree.

 

And someone in this thread has been really pissing me off the last couple of weeks, and I can't figure out why. It's really bothering me, and the fact that a person from a "net board" is bothering me bothers me even more, and the fact that I can't figure out why I'm so bothered, bothers me EVEN MORE!

Is it me? I feel like I have been talking a bit too much lately... I am just so fucking bored... :(

  42Orange said:

The type of experience you have is going to be extremely reliant on your mental health, circumstances, personality and preparation, when those things are given due respect and consideration, the chances of actually walking away with a worthwhile experience skyrocket.

in my experience, this is key.

  Iain C said:

I didn't find them extraordinary, just tiring and eventually pretty boring. I'm sure they've got their potential benefits in therapy or whathaveyou, but you tell me: how do you think psychedelics are going to change the world? I'm not the one making sweeping statements and bold claims here.

1. I never said that (although I do believe it is quite possible). I was very careful to avoid making 'sweeping statements and bold claims.'

2. What I said was that the brain's reactions with many psychedelic substances are only marginally understood at the moment and that, with research, any number of beneficial discoveries could be made, perhaps new cures for illnesses, or new understanding of the workings of the human brain. (I also mentioned the vagueness of terms like "spiritual experience", but nobody seems to want to talk about that.)

let me try to answer your question anyway:

a long time ago there was no life on earth. then, one day, there was. things evolved. generally they evolved either to be better able to acquire food or to become more difficult to eat. eventually a genus called homo emerged. it learned to use tools and fire, and rapidly began to evolve in an entirely new kind of way: instead of growing spines or claws to defend itself, it built spears and traps and learned new ways to bend nature to its will.

very soon homo sapiens became the dominant predator of the planet and as years went on it had more and more time to think, to develop new ideas and new understandings of the world around it. thanks to the ability to pass history and craft down through generations by means of oral and later written records, the species' knowledge base increased quickly.

and here we are today, the product of that "mental evolution." we continue to experiment and learn more about the world around us. our need to evolve physically has been eliminated by our mastery of the dangers to our species, which is thanks to our mental progression since those first days. how can we continue to move forward? how about by learning about why the majority of the human brain goes largely unused? how about learning how lsd and mescaline and psilocybin actually do what they do? the more we learn about this, the better we will understand not just the drugs' reactions, but also the workings of the human brain itself.

that was kinda long, but I really do think our next evolutionary step will be mainly mental, and not necessarily a gradual, natural evolution now that we have the tools and ability to synthesize and integrate and analyze in ways previously unheard of. I find it likely that it will be self-induced, be it through 'miracle pill', neurosurgery, bioelectronic 'upgrade', etc etc. and I think psychedelic substances could very easily play a huge role in that next step.

  atropa said:

Psychedelics have a strong potential to elicit near fascist tendencies in groups and aggressively ideological ones in individuals, imo.

agreed, on both sides. those who support their use can certainly be extremist in their words and actions, but those who condemn them can be equally (if not more) so. humans just tend to be a bit fascist by nature.

  atropa said:

Your spiritual experience as commodity is reminiscent of the Catholic Church selling absolution during the Renaissance.

that's a terrible comparison; completely illogical!