I'm scared of ignorant right-wing bigots.

  On 9/15/2009 at 11:52 PM, abusivegeorge said:

  On 9/15/2009 at 11:39 PM, Joyrex said:

I think all this anti-Obamaism that's going on in the States is just thinly veiled racism. All this "he's a Muslim" crap is just a convenient way of getting around wanting to say "He's a nigger, and I don't want a nigger as President".

 

America is still terribly racist, regardless of how far we feel we've come since the 60's.

 

This is very true, although I would never label a person or nation "racist" unless it was complately obvious in an entirity, but this definetly does still seem to be the way.

 

 

Agreed. Obama has brought a lot of racist and bigoted people out in public, as seen in the video, because they have a thin excuse now. Still, I think the racism card is being used to easily by some Dems, the left, and diehard Obama supporters to dispel criticism.

Edited September 15, 2009 by joshuatxuk

people in Europe who wonder why anybody would rationally be opposed to Obama's plan should take a look at what they have VS what Obama is proposing. Uk and Canada have 'single payer' Obama is proposing america devise a 'public option' to compete with private health insurance companies

Edited September 16, 2009 by Awepittance

  On 9/15/2009 at 11:51 PM, joshuatxuk said:

And I personally think a national healthcare system like NHS won't be feasible. We're a federal government with a population of 300 million. And fatasses. A more minimal but adequate (I'm being generous in assumptions here) single payer healthcare system like that in Europe isn't going to fly for us.

yeah. if you have it, it should be on a state level, where populations will be comparable to those in the best european countries. that way, the clever folks can have locally-administered medical aid while the rednecks can praise their white anglo-saxon god for the absence of DixieCare.

 

 

 

 

i'm starting to feel really sorry for Obama right now. it's really not going to work, the way he wants it. this shit's gonna backfire bigtime.

Edited September 16, 2009 by ezkerraldean

  On 9/15/2009 at 11:38 PM, ezkerraldean said:

  On 9/15/2009 at 11:16 PM, fox said:

i take it then that you are not scared by ignorant left-wing bigots,

they're also scary but much less prolific

  Quote

or well-informed bigots of any stripe?

they are oxymoronic

 

do you really think there are no well-informed bigots? and do you really think there are fewer left-wing bigots?

 

don't be naive.

  On 9/16/2009 at 12:12 AM, ezkerraldean said:

i'm starting to feel really sorry for Obama right now. it's really not going to work, the way he wants it. this shit's gonna backfire bigtime.

 

in what way do you feel sorry for him? his inability to be free of his overwhelming and costly desire to always be bipartisan and 'reach across the aisle'?

  On 9/16/2009 at 12:12 AM, fox said:

do you really think there are no well-informed bigots?  

nope.

  Quote

and do you really think there are fewer left-wing bigots?

 

well, they certainly don't come across as being as numerous and vocal.

the public choice option sucks in comparison to the single payer one, i agree.

 

but in your shoes, i'd still support the bill. once you manage to get people used to the public choice option the single payer option won't be too hard to sell, later down the road.

 

of course, you'll have to fight for single payer even then. but it'll easier to argue for a transition from public choice to single payer compared to all private to single payer. the latter is too much of a shock for most people without an imagination.

 

the biggest problem you'll have will be to start to remove the private healthcare industry. and this is a start.

I love how the guy carrying the cross had a wheel installed on it.

  On 9/16/2009 at 12:18 AM, Awepittance said:

  On 9/16/2009 at 12:12 AM, ezkerraldean said:

i'm starting to feel really sorry for Obama right now. it's really not going to work, the way he wants it. this shit's gonna backfire bigtime.

 

in what way do you feel sorry for him?  his inability to be free of his overwhelming and costly desire to always be bipartisan and 'reach across the aisle'?

 

mmm, maybe you're right. he always came across as having good intentions though, as in he originally wanted to create a genuinely decent health system but has been forced into making faustian pacts with the powers at be to make it remotely feasible.

 

maybe it's just my background notions of the guy, or what i've inherited from the hype surrounding him. a lot of my desire to see him succeed is probably just because he's the lesser of two evils.

 

 

 

 

 

  On 9/15/2009 at 11:43 PM, idrn said:

  On 9/15/2009 at 10:57 PM, messiaen said:

wow

 

you know, i dont actually think americans are any more stupid than british people, its just that people that ill-informed and stupid in britain would never in a million years to care enough about leaving their council estate to go and protest, and if they got interviewed, they would prefer to just shout obsceneties and make rude symbols at the interviewer to look cool on TV.

 

truth, although these people are the equivalent of daily mail readers, not estate dwellers (who are the equivalent of 'rednecks'). i reckon it's more how cynical we are, as culturally we cringe at overt sentimentality or emotional rhetoric. we're more likely to grumble and moan in acceptance that things are shit and always are because we're not told from a young age that everything is FUCKING GREAT AND PERFECT AND OUR SOCIETY IS AWESOME, WOO YEAH. post-colonial guilt innit?

 

teabaggers (if that's what they seriously called. seriously?) are just the unfortunate effect of a huge and overwhelming barrage of insidious misinformation, lies and calls to emotion that's used to keep the vested interests of psychopathic capitalism coming through via 'democracy'. i'm at risk of sounding so stereotypical, but this is serious business. those people actually believe they're protesting against something rather than protesting for healthcare industry profits. they've had their prejudice and cuntishness mobilized by the biggest cunts.

 

btw, it is also well funny how they're probably all super christian. 'would you like to help the less-fortunate? help those out of totally unneccairy suffering?' "FUCK NO". most of them are probably gonna be so embarrassed in 20 years.

 

 

Great post. Sums up the differences between UK and USA . You really put it in a nut shell

Everyone interviewed seemed to be completely ill-informed.

I think the media in the US are the problem, they don't offer any relevant information to the public, instead Fox and CNN offer too many opinions and not enough factual information. The opinions of the mainstream media look to determine the outlook which the TV viewer adopts if the viewer is easily manipulated.

 

I choose to get some of my US news from www.rawstory.com

There's a bias on that site (leans more towards the libertarian side) however the majority of the US public probably don't have the motivation to actively seek out and search for alternative news websites and TV news programs. TV news is easily accessible so most people are going to get their news from the popular media channels rather than looking on the internet.

  On 9/15/2009 at 11:51 PM, joshuatxuk said:

And I personally think a national healthcare system like NHS won't be feasible. We're a federal government with a population of 300 million. And fatasses.

 

germany's a federal country.

 

and as for size, the federal part actually helps, as your country is split up into segments. the nhs is difficult because beaucracy for 65 million people is difficult. california is half that, and your other states are much smaller.

 

the uk has plenty of fatasses. we're #2 in the world, i'll have you know.

 

i'm not sure about the costs. someone once told me the medicare stuff is actually more expensive per capita than the nhs. that could be total shit though.

I know, apathetic Christians. In the minds of many americans poor people = black people

  Quote

yeah. if you have it, it should be on a state level, where populations will be comparable to those in the best european countries. that way, the clever folks can have locally-administered medical aid while the rednecks can praise their white anglo-saxon god for the absence of DixieCare.

 

 

 

There are states that are trying to offer free health care. I think Mass and Tennessee, maybe. They aren't doing to well I gather. Im not too read up on it though so I'll shut up

Edited September 16, 2009 by marf

As a foreigner i've some questions to ask :

 

Those people are ignorant right ? Because they're not enough informed and haven't been at the university ok ? So logically they're are poor and are likely not to have enough money for hospital fees. So why the fuck are they against obama's health plan ?

 

 

Why does the presidents of the USA take oath on the Bible. Isn't america a secular country ? What if the next president is jewish. What'd happen ?

that guy with the microphone is a smug little cock. I thought the yokels came out of it rather well

 

 

  On 9/16/2009 at 12:19 AM, inteeliguntdesign said:

the public choice option sucks in comparison to the single payer one, i agree.

 

but in your shoes, i'd still support the bill. once you manage to get people used to the public choice option the single payer option won't be too hard to sell, later down the road.

 

of course, you'll have to fight for single payer even then. but it'll easier to argue for a transition from public choice to single payer compared to all private to single payer. the latter is too much of a shock for most people without an imagination.

 

the biggest problem you'll have will be to start to remove the private healthcare industry. and this is a start.

 

see i guess my logic is, Obama is wasting his opportunity. When again in the future of american history will we have this type of opportunity? I don't see it happening very soon, at least not soon enough in my lifetime to matter for anyone i know or am associated with.

He wasted his opportunity from the very beginning of not even having Single Payer as an option to go in with, he already surrendered his hand out of the gates. Why couldn't he at least have tried to get single payer or people to rally around it instead of killing it before he even started going around promoting the bill?

Because think about the way politics play out. Now that hes only gone in with 'pubic option' as his main hand, hes now going to have people fighting in opposition to disable and weaken the public option as much as they can. And i dont even mean at the outset of when the bill is written i mean that when the actual policies are put into action the insurance companies will still be fighting tooth in nail with their bought and paid for house members to squash or revise the public option to further cripple it.

The problem is that his public option plan isnt going to do that much good, you say when people 'get used to' the public option. Thats operating under the assumption that sweeping positive steps in our healthcare system would be taking place for people to want to move on from there. The public option is as it stands a disabled, weakened capitulation to the health insurance industry that does little to nothing to threaten them.

Obama could have easily just gone in at the start promoting single payer, i mean really how much worse could the criticisms being leveled at him be if that were his argument?

people are ALREADY calling him a nazi, a socialist, a communist a marxist for just promoting the freaking weak public option!

Edited September 16, 2009 by Awepittance

  On 9/16/2009 at 12:39 AM, Babar said:

As a foreigner i've some questions to ask :

 

Those people are ignorant right ? Because they're not enough informed and haven't been at the university ok ? So logically they're are poor and are likely not to have enough money for hospital fees. So why the fuck are they against obama's health plan ?

 

 

Why does the presidents of the USA take oath on the Bible. Isn't america a secular country ? What if the next president is jewish. What'd happen ?

The problem with your questioning is that you assume the American mindset works according to logic.

 

It doesn't.

  On 9/16/2009 at 12:41 AM, Awepittance said:

  On 9/16/2009 at 12:19 AM, inteeliguntdesign said:

the public choice option sucks in comparison to the single payer one, i agree.

 

but in your shoes, i'd still support the bill. once you manage to get people used to the public choice option the single payer option won't be too hard to sell, later down the road.

 

of course, you'll have to fight for single payer even then. but it'll easier to argue for a transition from public choice to single payer compared to all private to single payer. the latter is too much of a shock for most people without an imagination.

 

the biggest problem you'll have will be to start to remove the private healthcare industry. and this is a start.

 

see i guess my logic is, Obama is wasting his opportunity. When again in the future of american history will we have this type of opportunity? I don't see it happening very soon, at least not soon enough in my lifetime to matter for anyone i know or am associated with.

He wasted his opportunity from the very beginning of not even having Single Payer as an option to go in with, he already surrendered his hand out of the gates. Why couldn't he at least have tried to get single payer or people to rally around it instead of killing it before he even started going around promoting the bill?

Because think about the way politics play out. Now that hes only gone in with 'pubic option' as his main hand, hes now going to have people fighting in opposition to disable and weaken the public option as much as they can. And i dont even mean at the outset of when the bill is written i mean that when the actual policies are put into action the insurance companies will still be fighting tooth in nail with their bought and paid for house members to squash or revise the public option to further cripple it.

The problem is that his public option plan isnt going to do that much good, you say when people 'get used to' the public option. Thats operating under the assumption that sweeping positive steps in our healthcare system would be taking place for people to want to move on from there. The public option is as it stands a disabled, weakened capitulation to the health insurance industry that does little to nothing to threaten them.

Obama could have easily just gone in at the start promoting single payer, i mean really how much worse could the criticisms being leveled at him be if that were his argument?

people are ALREADY calling him a nazi, a socialist, a communist a marxist for just promoting the freaking weak public option!

 

i can't really figure out why he didn't for for single payer, unless there was some kind of weird conciliation during planning i.e. he thought single payer would be far too hard too sell at the start, even to his own party. i don't know enough about the majority he'd need in his own party, and what those people think about healthcare to really guess. but i can guess there'd be concilliation even before the proposal came to the fore. still, as i said, i don't know enough about what his internal circle, democratic party, and important parties think about healthcare.

 

the only other option is that he purposely gave himself a weak hand, which either suggests he doesn't really want universal healthcare or that he's stupid.

 

if his plans a) show people benefits which make them want more, b) show people the healthcare industry really is bad for them, or c) allow people to be persuaded once they realise what universal healthcare actually is (i.e. not some terrorist marxist muslim plot to resurrect stalin and overthrow the white house and erect a giant statue of hitler to take its place), then i still think it's be worth it. worth it because further argument will have more to stand on. and the populous will at least be educated enough to know universal healthcare (public choice) does not equal killing every first born child in the land.

 

if none of the three come from the bill, then it may be worth killing it and waiting for another opportunity (but when?).

Edited September 16, 2009 by inteeliguntdesign

There wasn't unity in the Democratic Party for support of a single payer plan.

  On 9/16/2009 at 1:03 AM, inteeliguntdesign said:

[the populous will at least be educated enough to know universal healthcare (public choice) does not equal killing every first born child in the land.

 

i liked your post, i had some other things to say but i gotta run right now but i wanted to address this part.

Basically these people who think that grandma will die or that there are 'death panels' are not operating under logic or reason, they are in a hurricane of emotion and fear. Even if what you say happens and the fruits of the public option do not cause those fears of theirs to come true, its not going to alleviate their out of control irrational fear. They will find something new Obama is doing to be terrified about, something that will help the republican create a wedge issue for an upper hand in 2012, it doesn't really matter what it fucking is, they've just somehow managed to snowball the healthcare thing, it has no basis in logic of any kind (and thus the same crazies who think public option is 'universal healthcare' will not change their tune in a less crazy way, they will be acting exactly the sam as they are now)

Edited September 16, 2009 by Awepittance

  On 9/16/2009 at 1:08 AM, scones to die for said:

There wasn't unity in the Democratic Party for support of a single payer plan.

 

well point to none other than Rahm Emanuel for this being the case. the 'blue dog' demoratic clique that he created to rally together on specific issues has not had any pressure put on it from Rahm to support single payer, in fact these same Blue Dogs are saying they wont support Public option. I thought the Reason Obama hired rahm emanuel was so he can be 'rambo' in the senate and intimidate rivals of obama's policies into conceding and voting how he wanted them to.

Rahm's boys are actually completely going against what Obama says he wants

funny how things actually work out!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjwgMKhYfjg&feature=player_embedded

Edited September 16, 2009 by Awepittance

  On 9/16/2009 at 1:09 AM, Awepittance said:

  On 9/16/2009 at 1:03 AM, inteeliguntdesign said:

[the populous will at least be educated enough to know universal healthcare (public choice) does not equal killing every first born child in the land.

 

i liked your post, i had some other things to say but i gotta run right now but i wanted to address this part.

Basically these people who think that grandma will die or that there are 'death panels' are not operating under logic or reason, they are in a hurricane of emotion and fear. Even if what you say happens and the fruits of the public option do not cause those fears of theirs to come true, its not going to alleviate their out of control irrational fear. They will find something new Obama is doing to be terrified about, something that will help the republican create a wedge issue for an upper hand in 2012, it doesn't really matter what it fucking is, they've just somehow managed to snowball the healthcare thing, it has no basis in logic of any kind (and thus the same crazies who think public option is 'universal healthcare' will not change their tune in a less crazy way, they will be acting exactly the sam as they are now)

 

cool.

 

i think it would quieten a few, demotivate them, when they were wrong first time, or at least as you said make it so they concentrate on some other silly thing next time. dunno how much tv coverage they'd get a second time, either, especially when the someone on the show, or caller, whatever can quickly point out they were wrong first time.

 

still,

yeah you may be right, the republicans are especially crazy right now because a black man beat their guy, only time will tell how this is all going to resolve.

I wasn't alive when Jimmy Carter was president here , but it would be interesting to see comparisons in how Carter tried to push through liberal policy VS Obama, especially given that he only served one term and is universally despised by republicans. Did his proposed progressive policies have more teeth? is that why he didnt survive a second term? The guy apparently had Ralph Nadar come and stay at camp david for a weekend to discuss energy policy.

 

this was a photo circulating a bunch of republican blogs to show how huge the 9/12 rally was, predictably the photo turned out not to be fake exactly but a photo from a 1997 washington 'Promise Keepers' rally