morrissey has left the building

  On 10/27/2009 at 8:58 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 8:14 PM, Joyrex said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 7:59 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 7:48 PM, Joyrex said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 7:32 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/26/2009 at 4:48 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

wait, what has morrisey done to make him morally bankrupt/

 

im not arguing, i genuinely dont know.

 

 

always loved the smiths, never got into his solo career.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/209224.

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1998/1711.html

 

 

 

I glossed over the second link (the first is a 404 deadend), and the gist of what I read is Joyce wants to rewrite history based on prior British Law, despite the fact he agreed to a 10% stake in the band's earnings, and after some thought (and especially since they became wildly popular), he attempted to renegotiate his contract, which Marr and Morrissey rejected, as was their right since they were the majority stakeholders in the band. Am I missing anything that points towards Morrissey being "morally bankrupt" there?

 

Wikipedia has a non-legal explanation of the incident:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Smiths#Court_case

 

It's quite clear that you are an elitist/capitalist...maybe someone else should do your 'job' for awhile?

 

Y'know what - you don't come into someone's front room and shit on the floor - I gave my opinion on what I read, and I don't see how Joyce would have or should have been entitled to anything more than what he agreed to - now, the court did rule in his favour on the aspect of him losing out since he was not credited as a songwriter (and I agree with that, since he DID have a hand in creating the work from which the others benefited), and it could be inferred that Morr/Marr did this purposely to garner more for themselves. But, selling unreleased tracks on Ebay is shitty, since at that point, it IS all about the money for him, which is far more capitalist than you're making me out to be.

 

Joyce agreeing to the arrangement was his first mistake, and obviously not having good business sense in ensuring he got properly compensated was his second. He's a victim of his own circumstances, really.

 

You're funny Joyrex. I know this is your pet project, but that doesn't make you God. You are a capitalist, because your whole answer contains nothing but technical / financial references. Joyce was only a child (20 in 1983) when he started out, a punk drummer who would hardly be an expert on binding agreements and accounting. Moz and Marr both colluded and took advantage of their 'hired help'. As any serious fan of music knows, it's about the group dynamic that defines a band's sound and how they are seen by their fans, and obviously the songs themselves. It should never be about the cash, as soon as you start messing about trying to garner extra for your 'greater duties', you sow the seeds of future legal battles. The Smiths will always be a four piece to my mind and memory, they are all integral to the sound even if some are less gifted intellectually or in terms of skill. They should have split the money four ways, apart from song writing, that is simply common sense. You quote the law a lot, the law is a load of ass that anyone with a smart laywer can wriggle round to their way of thinking. As for selling stuff on Ebay, I guess you must be sitting pretty in your ivory tower looking down at the serfs toiling in the mud. Rourke had to sell his bass guitar, the famous one in the Glastonbury shot just to stay afloat in this capitalist sea of scum, Joyce is hardly rolling in it either. Within a short space of signing the Rough Trade 50/50 deal, Moz and Marr were able to move into a fashionable part of London. The lads got the crumbs falling from the table. Sound familiar? You must be doing very well indeed to have the time to pontificate on the minutia of a penniless drummers attempts to survive in the world.

LOL, I love how you're injecting me running this site into the discussion, as it initially never was part of it. As for my financial standing, that's frankly none of your business, and like my position here, not part of this discussion.

"he was only a child in 1983" - he was an adult, and while he may not have had much life experience, he should have asked for advice (free or otherwise), or I dunno, LIVED BY HIS DECISIONS AND CHOICES AND LEARNED FROM THEM, both good and bad.

Also, I disagree with you about Joyce's drumming - it was Marr and Morrissey's respective talents that defined the Smiths' sound, and I doubt you'd be able to find as much lauding of his drumming compared to the vocals and guitar.

Why should Marr and Morrissey care or worry about Joyce or Rourke's bad financial decisions? If they weren't making ends meet as musicians, then they should have went back to school and gotten degrees, or found some other way to make a career.

And surviving by going back and using the court system and legal avenues to "survive in the world" is about as bad as being able-bodied and being on the dole and doing nothing to raise yourself out of that situation.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were related or ARE Joyce, the way you are defending him - that, or just trying to raise my ire, which I'll have you know bigger and better ones have tried before you, and had at least some sort of standing/respectable post count before attempting to do so.

  On 10/27/2009 at 9:37 PM, Joyrex said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 8:58 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 8:14 PM, Joyrex said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 7:59 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 7:48 PM, Joyrex said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 7:32 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/26/2009 at 4:48 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

wait, what has morrisey done to make him morally bankrupt/

 

im not arguing, i genuinely dont know.

 

 

always loved the smiths, never got into his solo career.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/209224.

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1998/1711.html

 

 

 

I glossed over the second link (the first is a 404 deadend), and the gist of what I read is Joyce wants to rewrite history based on prior British Law, despite the fact he agreed to a 10% stake in the band's earnings, and after some thought (and especially since they became wildly popular), he attempted to renegotiate his contract, which Marr and Morrissey rejected, as was their right since they were the majority stakeholders in the band. Am I missing anything that points towards Morrissey being "morally bankrupt" there?

 

Wikipedia has a non-legal explanation of the incident:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Smiths#Court_case

 

It's quite clear that you are an elitist/capitalist...maybe someone else should do your 'job' for awhile?

 

Y'know what - you don't come into someone's front room and shit on the floor - I gave my opinion on what I read, and I don't see how Joyce would have or should have been entitled to anything more than what he agreed to - now, the court did rule in his favour on the aspect of him losing out since he was not credited as a songwriter (and I agree with that, since he DID have a hand in creating the work from which the others benefited), and it could be inferred that Morr/Marr did this purposely to garner more for themselves. But, selling unreleased tracks on Ebay is shitty, since at that point, it IS all about the money for him, which is far more capitalist than you're making me out to be.

 

Joyce agreeing to the arrangement was his first mistake, and obviously not having good business sense in ensuring he got properly compensated was his second. He's a victim of his own circumstances, really.

 

You're funny Joyrex. I know this is your pet project, but that doesn't make you God. You are a capitalist, because your whole answer contains nothing but technical / financial references. Joyce was only a child (20 in 1983) when he started out, a punk drummer who would hardly be an expert on binding agreements and accounting. Moz and Marr both colluded and took advantage of their 'hired help'. As any serious fan of music knows, it's about the group dynamic that defines a band's sound and how they are seen by their fans, and obviously the songs themselves. It should never be about the cash, as soon as you start messing about trying to garner extra for your 'greater duties', you sow the seeds of future legal battles. The Smiths will always be a four piece to my mind and memory, they are all integral to the sound even if some are less gifted intellectually or in terms of skill. They should have split the money four ways, apart from song writing, that is simply common sense. You quote the law a lot, the law is a load of ass that anyone with a smart laywer can wriggle round to their way of thinking. As for selling stuff on Ebay, I guess you must be sitting pretty in your ivory tower looking down at the serfs toiling in the mud. Rourke had to sell his bass guitar, the famous one in the Glastonbury shot just to stay afloat in this capitalist sea of scum, Joyce is hardly rolling in it either. Within a short space of signing the Rough Trade 50/50 deal, Moz and Marr were able to move into a fashionable part of London. The lads got the crumbs falling from the table. Sound familiar? You must be doing very well indeed to have the time to pontificate on the minutia of a penniless drummers attempts to survive in the world.

 

LOL, I love how you're injecting me running this site into the discussion, as it initially never was part of it. As for my financial standing, that's frankly none of your business, and like my position here, not part of this discussion.

 

"he was only a child in 1983" - he was an adult, and while he may not have had much life experience, he should have asked for advice (free or otherwise), or I dunno, LIVED BY HIS DECISIONS AND CHOICES AND LEARNED FROM THEM, both good and bad.

 

Also, I disagree with you about Joyce's drumming - it was Marr and Morrissey's respective talents that defined the Smiths' sound, and I doubt you'd be able to find as much lauding of his drumming compared to the vocals and guitar.

 

Why should Marr and Morrissey care or worry about Joyce or Rourke's bad financial decisions? If they weren't making ends meet as musicians, then they should have went back to school and gotten degrees, or found some other way to make a career.

 

And surviving by going back and using the court system and legal avenues to "survive in the world" is about as bad as being able-bodied and being on the dole and doing nothing to raise yourself out of that situation.

 

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were related or ARE Joyce, the way you are defending him - that, or just trying to raise my ire, which I'll have you know bigger and better ones have tried before you, and had at least some sort of standing/respectable post count before attempting to do so.

You keep getting more amusing with each tirade, I take my hat off to you! What kind of life do you lead? I think all things should be up for discussion, I certainly have nothing to hide. Am I related to Joyce? That's funny, he's from Irish stock as am I so in a way we are, but then again all the Smiths are of Irish descent.

They 'should have went back to school and gotten degrees', that's so easy for everyone, isn't it? You have no idea how hard life is for some people, do you? The fact that you spend so much time running an imaginary world for yourself speaks volumes. Your elitist sneering atitude creeps in again when you start blathering on about my post count? Am I not 'respectable' enough to engage in a stern debate with? Does that frighten you or something? Not used to the underclass throwing stones at your pretty windows?

I'm not trying to raise your ire, from how YOU carry on within these forums and debates shows you just as likely to be seeking a rise as me. Morrissey makes TRUCKLOADS of money, as does Marr, so the other two deserve to be just as rich considering they were just as important to the sound and to the ethos of the group. You don't know too much about their catalogue when you say his drumming wasn't lauded, he was a vital part of the live set up, as was Rourke. Moz and Marr were lucky to have such naive members in the rhythm section.

Anyway, write what you like, obviously I've hit a raw nerve if you feel compelled to endlessly answer the rantings of a peasant with a low post count, I guess I should bow and walk backwards until I reach the door!

FUN!

  On 10/27/2009 at 9:50 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 9:37 PM, Joyrex said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 8:58 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 8:14 PM, Joyrex said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 7:59 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 7:48 PM, Joyrex said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 7:32 PM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/26/2009 at 4:48 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

wait, what has morrisey done to make him morally bankrupt/

 

im not arguing, i genuinely dont know.

 

 

always loved the smiths, never got into his solo career.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/209224.

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1998/1711.html

 

 

 

I glossed over the second link (the first is a 404 deadend), and the gist of what I read is Joyce wants to rewrite history based on prior British Law, despite the fact he agreed to a 10% stake in the band's earnings, and after some thought (and especially since they became wildly popular), he attempted to renegotiate his contract, which Marr and Morrissey rejected, as was their right since they were the majority stakeholders in the band. Am I missing anything that points towards Morrissey being "morally bankrupt" there?

 

Wikipedia has a non-legal explanation of the incident:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Smiths#Court_case

 

It's quite clear that you are an elitist/capitalist...maybe someone else should do your 'job' for awhile?

 

Y'know what - you don't come into someone's front room and shit on the floor - I gave my opinion on what I read, and I don't see how Joyce would have or should have been entitled to anything more than what he agreed to - now, the court did rule in his favour on the aspect of him losing out since he was not credited as a songwriter (and I agree with that, since he DID have a hand in creating the work from which the others benefited), and it could be inferred that Morr/Marr did this purposely to garner more for themselves. But, selling unreleased tracks on Ebay is shitty, since at that point, it IS all about the money for him, which is far more capitalist than you're making me out to be.

 

Joyce agreeing to the arrangement was his first mistake, and obviously not having good business sense in ensuring he got properly compensated was his second. He's a victim of his own circumstances, really.

 

You're funny Joyrex. I know this is your pet project, but that doesn't make you God. You are a capitalist, because your whole answer contains nothing but technical / financial references. Joyce was only a child (20 in 1983) when he started out, a punk drummer who would hardly be an expert on binding agreements and accounting. Moz and Marr both colluded and took advantage of their 'hired help'. As any serious fan of music knows, it's about the group dynamic that defines a band's sound and how they are seen by their fans, and obviously the songs themselves. It should never be about the cash, as soon as you start messing about trying to garner extra for your 'greater duties', you sow the seeds of future legal battles. The Smiths will always be a four piece to my mind and memory, they are all integral to the sound even if some are less gifted intellectually or in terms of skill. They should have split the money four ways, apart from song writing, that is simply common sense. You quote the law a lot, the law is a load of ass that anyone with a smart laywer can wriggle round to their way of thinking. As for selling stuff on Ebay, I guess you must be sitting pretty in your ivory tower looking down at the serfs toiling in the mud. Rourke had to sell his bass guitar, the famous one in the Glastonbury shot just to stay afloat in this capitalist sea of scum, Joyce is hardly rolling in it either. Within a short space of signing the Rough Trade 50/50 deal, Moz and Marr were able to move into a fashionable part of London. The lads got the crumbs falling from the table. Sound familiar? You must be doing very well indeed to have the time to pontificate on the minutia of a penniless drummers attempts to survive in the world.

 

LOL, I love how you're injecting me running this site into the discussion, as it initially never was part of it. As for my financial standing, that's frankly none of your business, and like my position here, not part of this discussion.

 

"he was only a child in 1983" - he was an adult, and while he may not have had much life experience, he should have asked for advice (free or otherwise), or I dunno, LIVED BY HIS DECISIONS AND CHOICES AND LEARNED FROM THEM, both good and bad.

 

Also, I disagree with you about Joyce's drumming - it was Marr and Morrissey's respective talents that defined the Smiths' sound, and I doubt you'd be able to find as much lauding of his drumming compared to the vocals and guitar.

 

Why should Marr and Morrissey care or worry about Joyce or Rourke's bad financial decisions? If they weren't making ends meet as musicians, then they should have went back to school and gotten degrees, or found some other way to make a career.

 

And surviving by going back and using the court system and legal avenues to "survive in the world" is about as bad as being able-bodied and being on the dole and doing nothing to raise yourself out of that situation.

 

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were related or ARE Joyce, the way you are defending him - that, or just trying to raise my ire, which I'll have you know bigger and better ones have tried before you, and had at least some sort of standing/respectable post count before attempting to do so.

 

You keep getting more amusing with each tirade, I take my hat off to you! What kind of life do you lead? I think all things should be up for discussion, I certainly have nothing to hide. Am I related to Joyce? That's funny, he's from Irish stock as am I so in a way we are, but then again all the Smiths are of Irish descent.

 

They 'should have went back to school and gotten degrees', that's so easy for everyone, isn't it? You have no idea how hard life is for some people, do you? The fact that you spend so much time running an imaginary world for yourself speaks volumes. Your elitist sneering atitude creeps in again when you start blathering on about my post count? Am I not 'respectable' enough to engage in a stern debate with? Does that frighten you or something? Not used to the underclass throwing stones at your pretty windows?

 

I'm not trying to raise your ire, from how YOU carry on within these forums and debates shows you just as likely to be seeking a rise as me. Morrissey makes TRUCKLOADS of money, as does Marr, so the other two deserve to be just as rich considering they were just as important to the sound and to the ethos of the group. You don't know too much about their catalogue when you say his drumming wasn't lauded, he was a vital part of the live set up, as was Rourke. Moz and Marr were lucky to have such naive members in the rhythm section.

 

Anyway, write what you like, obviously I've hit a raw nerve if you feel compelled to endlessly answer the rantings of a peasant with a low post count, I guess I should bow and walk backwards until I reach the door!

Life is what you make of it - sure, sometimes things happen beyond one's control, but I'd hardly say Joyce or Rourke fell on hard times due to bad luck. It would have been nice if they decided after The Smiths made it big to increase their shares, since as you say, they contributed partly to it's success - but that didn't happen, and regardless, it was a decision that both Joyce and Rourke accepted rather than taking a stand and finding alternate fame or careers after the group disbanded.

Morrissey and Marr make those "truckloads" of money due to their careers AFTER The Smiths - you honestly cannot say that their current income is mostly comprised of Smiths royalties these days, are you? Morrissey alone has released enough solo efforts that have done well both critically and financially that I reckon the Smiths proceeds are mere icing on the cake. I am a Smiths/Morrissey fan (a casual one, admittedly), and I can tell you, until this thread, I never really knew the bassist and drummer's names - I did, however, know the lead singer and guitarist quite well, as they are the names mostly associated with The Smiths and their place in music culture. I think Joyce is better known now for his bitter feud with Morrissey rather than any contributions he made as it's drummer.

Let's discuss this personal aspect you've injected into this (the whole subject of me running this site, etc.) - what's it to you - I don't recall inviting you here, so therefore you willingly joined to engage in intelligent discussion about music. Now, if you came here to make personal attacks on me or the site and your delusional ideas of how much time I spend running it or what I get out of it, then it's time to reassess whether creating an account here was the right decision for you.

You're not hitting a "raw nerve" other than the nerve you've displayed by taking a discussion about The Smiths and trying to turn it into a discussion about me and/or this site. Beside the fact that it's taken the discussion off-topic, for you to waltz in and make these unfounded assumptions is a bit rude and questionable, especially considering your brief tenure here.

I'll gladly debate a topic at hand at length, and give my opinion if I have one (whether it's right or wrong), and me being the administrator has (and should have) no bearing on that.

  On 10/27/2009 at 10:20 PM, xxx said:

Joyrex is a big Republican though. I can smell Sean Hannity on him frequently. S'okay, it takes all kinds in the wide world of WATMM.

WHAAAAAAA.....?

Republican, I am most certainly not!

And that's Sean Young you smell on me, mostly my fingers.

Maaan...you scared the fuck out of me .

holy shittin lols.

now now ladies, put the handbags back in the overhead locker and put the seatbelts on.

what happened to the idea that everyone can have an opinion (always the right one of course)?

i'd say there's a bit of truth in the suggestion o'rourke and joyce were royally shafted. but equally ive been around for long enough to lol at the idea that Jr is a capitalist. Any self-respecting capitalist would have pulled the plug on this place when it was still joyrex.com - i certainly couldnt be fucking bothered lobbing money every month at hosting bills, irrespective of whether donations cover it or not.

i cry rabies!

mmmmm Sean Young....

  On 10/27/2009 at 10:11 PM, Joyrex said:

I can tell you, until this thread, I never really knew the bassist and drummer's names

this conversation is over

not that i was involved in any way before

  On 10/27/2009 at 10:43 PM, Atop said:

mmmmm Sean Young....

 

 

That bitch is crazy.

I use to think she was a tranny when I was little (because of Ace Ventura ) I was a gullible young boy...sad .

  On 10/27/2009 at 10:40 PM, ~ism said:

 

 

 

i'd say there's a bit of truth in the suggestion o'rourke and joyce were royally shafted. but equally ive been around for long enough to lol at the idea that Jr is a capitalist.

 

i cry rabies!

It's Rourke Ism, not bleedin' O'Rourke. Read the rules!

if you're gonna blame something, blame smack innit

  On 10/28/2009 at 4:20 AM, badgermeat said:

  On 10/27/2009 at 10:40 PM, ~ism said:

 

 

 

i'd say there's a bit of truth in the suggestion o'rourke and joyce were royally shafted. but equally ive been around for long enough to lol at the idea that Jr is a capitalist.

 

i cry rabies!

 

 

It's Rourke Ism, not bleedin' O'Rourke. Read the rules!

lol - i thought that but couldnt remember, and was too lazy to scroll back and be sure...figured id go with the o' and if was wrong it would irk someone good and proper :)

rourke and o'joyce. got it.