LOST - Season 6

  On 5/25/2010 at 5:46 PM, blicero said:

  Quote

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

 

FALSE: The MIB did not recruit Ben and get him to kill Dharma, that was Richard – a/k/a Jacob's sidekick.

 

I stopped reading when I got here and realized this was more BS.

lol good point. but maybe he corrupted him when richard dipped hi the temple water same way he got sayid?

haha remember when the others were running around in fake beards

  On 5/25/2010 at 5:58 PM, Benedict Cumberbatch said:

  On 5/25/2010 at 5:46 PM, blicero said:

  Quote

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

 

FALSE: The MIB did not recruit Ben and get him to kill Dharma, that was Richard – a/k/a Jacob's sidekick.

 

I stopped reading when I got here and realized this was more BS.

 

lol good point.

 

haha remember when the others were running around in fake beards

Yeah. I assume that was to give the illusion that they were living like cast-aways, so that the Losties wouldn't find out about their Disney suburb and ruin their book club.

  Quote

So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

yea also, why couldn't smokey swoop in at any time and just kill every one on the beach like he did at the temple he wasn't even allowed in.

that whole block of copy could not have come from a writer on the show, its so full of crap.

then again, it very possibly could have and just proves even more how little anyone knew what they were doing.

  On 5/25/2010 at 4:36 PM, o00o said:

Who was it? Would be interesting to know what he is working on currently

I don't know, it would be interesting to find out. the way they put it when the news came out was that he was the one with ideas like the button and the hatch map. not sure if those ones exactly.

  On 5/25/2010 at 6:24 PM, GORDO said:

  On 5/25/2010 at 4:36 PM, o00o said:

Who was it? Would be interesting to know what he is working on currently

 

I don't know, it would be interesting to find out. the way they put it when the news came out was that he was the one with ideas like the button and the hatch map. not sure if those ones exactly.

after reading a list of writers, the name Javier Grillo-Marxuach rings a bell.

  On 5/25/2010 at 6:05 PM, jules said:

that whole block of copy could only have come from a writer on the show, its so full of crap.

fixd

  On 5/25/2010 at 6:00 PM, blicero said:

  On 5/25/2010 at 5:58 PM, Benedict Cumberbatch said:

  On 5/25/2010 at 5:46 PM, blicero said:

  Quote

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

 

FALSE: The MIB did not recruit Ben and get him to kill Dharma, that was Richard – a/k/a Jacob's sidekick.

 

I stopped reading when I got here and realized this was more BS.

 

lol good point.

 

haha remember when the others were running around in fake beards

 

Yeah. I assume that was to give the illusion that they were living like cast-aways, so that the Losties wouldn't find out about their Disney suburb and ruin their book club.

you missed my edit

  On 5/25/2010 at 5:25 PM, Benedict Cumberbatch said:

semi interesting read from someone who worked on the show.

 

 

 

  Quote

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

 

First ...

The Island:

 

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

 

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

 

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

 

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

 

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

 

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

 

Now...

 

Sideways World:

 

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

 

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

 

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

 

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

 

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

 

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

 

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

 

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

 

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

 

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.

 

http://lostmediamentions.blogspot.com/2010/05/someone-from-bad-robots-take-on-finale.html#disqus_thread

God, what a ditz...

Wow that was really bad. I think the idea that it was meant to be about purgatory and then they changed it when people figured it out seems like the most likely answer. You kind of just wish they'd sat down early on and made sure they didn't raise so many questions they couldn't answer. I think that ending would have been ok (not great but not shit) if they'd answered all the questions before it. At the very least it would have been nice to know about the polar bear and the four toed statue.

I also thought the whole jacob/ MIB storyline was pretty poorly done. I think it could have been a lot better if they hadn't just made MIB evil/ wants to end the world, typical villain. Or if they wanted to go that way they could have introduced him in an earlier series..

Maybe if the time travel, and off island series had been spent explaining some of the mysteries of the island this could have been much better. I reckon they probably hit a point where they realised they didn't have time to answer all the questions, or any explanations would have been contradictory, so they just gave up.

they had mountains of time, they could have just actually done storyline instead of entire seasons of filler bullshit.

LOL

My friend was soooo pissed at this ending.

  On 5/25/2010 at 7:34 PM, blutac said:

Wow that was really bad. I think the idea that it was meant to be about purgatory and then they changed it when people figured it out seems like the most likely answer. You kind of just wish they'd sat down early on and made sure they didn't raise so many questions they couldn't answer. I think that ending would have been ok (not great but not shit) if they'd answered all the questions before it. At the very least it would have been nice to know about the polar bear and the four toed statue.

 

I also thought the whole jacob/ MIB storyline was pretty poorly done. I think it could have been a lot better if they hadn't just made MIB evil/ wants to end the world, typical villain. Or if they wanted to go that way they could have introduced him in an earlier series..

 

Maybe if the time travel, and off island series had been spent explaining some of the mysteries of the island this could have been much better. I reckon they probably hit a point where they realised they didn't have time to answer all the questions, or any explanations would have been contradictory, so they just gave up.

i'm starting to realize that everyone of us need to "let go", if we stay wondering about what was that polar bear we'll never get to heaven, WAKE UP DUDES!!!

lol at the fact that they "underestimated their audience"

the first episode is a plane crash and people are seeing dead people. fuck, how did they know we were planning on them being dead the whole time?

ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

i just want to know why you become a different person with different families in purgatory. whats the point in living if it changes in purgatory? wtf kind of message is that? ben killed a man with his bare hands and let his daughter get shot and he gets to go to heaven? smokey gets his mother killed and is banished to an island for being curious and he is all evil incarnated?

  On 5/25/2010 at 8:11 PM, jules said:

lol at the fact that they "underestimated their audience"

 

the first episode is a plane crash and people are seeing dead people. fuck, how did they know we were planning on them being dead the whole time?

 

ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

 

 

 

i just want to know why you become a different person with different families in purgatory. whats the point in living if it changes in purgatory? wtf kind of message is that? ben killed a man with his bare hands and let his daughter get shot and he gets to go to heaven? smokey gets his mother killed and is banished to an island for being curious and he is all evil incarnated?

i'm starting to wonder that what they really wanted to cause on us was: WE, THE VIEWERS, ARE ALL ALREADY DEAD, and if we don't let go all this bizness, we wont make it into heaven, so, LET GO DUDES!!!

i've never seen this show

  On 5/25/2010 at 8:11 PM, jules said:

lol at the fact that they "underestimated their audience"

 

the first episode is a plane crash and people are seeing dead people. fuck, how did they know we were planning on them being dead the whole time?

 

ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

 

 

 

i just want to know why you become a different person with different families in purgatory. whats the point in living if it changes in purgatory? wtf kind of message is that? ben killed a man with his bare hands and let his daughter get shot and he gets to go to heaven? smokey gets his mother killed and is banished to an island for being curious and he is all evil incarnated?

i don't want to know that, i want to know why would you be shoping and eating stakes in afterlife, and why wouldn't you recall your previous life...

don't you unobservant noobs know that the polar bears and shit were there from dharma? probably one of their "totally ridiculous experiments."

would be nice to have some sort of definitive lore for what really happened before the lostees crashed on the island. that's why tolkien should be resurrected as a lost writer.

hummm what does kafkaeske mean??

ben didn't go to "heaven", that's why he was outside the church

  On 5/25/2010 at 8:19 PM, theSun said:

don't you unobservant noobs know that the polar bears and shit were there from dharma? probably one of their "totally ridiculous experiments."

 

would be nice to have some sort of definitive lore for what really happened before the lostees crashed on the island. that's why tolkien should be resurrected as a lost writer.

no, i know for sure that the island had been before on the poles so that bear came from there!!!

  On 5/25/2010 at 8:23 PM, theSun said:

ben didn't go to "heaven", that's why he was outside the church

would you go??? i mean, everything was runing great down there...

re: ben - probably some bullshit about him having to make up for all the bad shit he did. cause some of the lostees did some bad shit but ben was there for so long doing so much more bad shit he's probably not "ready"

i'm just talking out my ass. i wish they didn't tie in this afterlife church bullshit. it's like they wanted you to think that initially, but then they were like "naw just fuckin with ya" then they were like "omg it is some metaphysics bullshit"

bullshit

  On 5/25/2010 at 8:15 PM, THIS IS MICHAEL JACKSON said:

  On 5/25/2010 at 8:11 PM, jules said:

lol at the fact that they "underestimated their audience"

 

the first episode is a plane crash and people are seeing dead people. fuck, how did they know we were planning on them being dead the whole time?

 

ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

 

 

 

i just want to know why you become a different person with different families in purgatory. whats the point in living if it changes in purgatory? wtf kind of message is that? ben killed a man with his bare hands and let his daughter get shot and he gets to go to heaven? smokey gets his mother killed and is banished to an island for being curious and he is all evil incarnated?

i'm starting to wonder that what they really wanted to cause on us was: WE, THE VIEWERS, ARE ALL ALREADY DEAD, and if we don't let go all this bizness, we wont make it into heaven, so, LET GO DUDES!!!

maybe watmm is the place we all created to help each other let gooooooo

  On 5/25/2010 at 8:44 PM, GORDO said:

  On 5/25/2010 at 8:15 PM, THIS IS MICHAEL JACKSON said:

  On 5/25/2010 at 8:11 PM, jules said:

lol at the fact that they "underestimated their audience"

 

the first episode is a plane crash and people are seeing dead people. fuck, how did they know we were planning on them being dead the whole time?

 

ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

 

 

 

i just want to know why you become a different person with different families in purgatory. whats the point in living if it changes in purgatory? wtf kind of message is that? ben killed a man with his bare hands and let his daughter get shot and he gets to go to heaven? smokey gets his mother killed and is banished to an island for being curious and he is all evil incarnated?

i'm starting to wonder that what they really wanted to cause on us was: WE, THE VIEWERS, ARE ALL ALREADY DEAD, and if we don't let go all this bizness, we wont make it into heaven, so, LET GO DUDES!!!

 

 

maybe watmm is the place we all created to help each other let gooooooo

oh man tath just gave me the chills

If I start getting flashes of another life in which the show had a satisfactory conclusion I might be able to accept I'm dead and start letting goooooooooo