synth shopping

  On 3/4/2010 at 10:00 PM, soundwave said:

and this video completely avoids both the points I've made in fact you could have done the same thing with a revolution and got the same results!

just posted it for the sake of the discussion.

the x0xb0x doesn't sound 110% like the tb-303. is it good enough for 99.9% of the people out there? yeah.

and from what i hear, no two 303's sound the same anyway. the arguments all seem moot.

ms2000 vs. 303?

Ok first of all, that video does indeed prove both your points, soundwave. That crunchy (and woody when overdriven) resonance circuit it would say is, along with the sequencer, a defining characteristic of the 303. The xoxbox does indeed squelch, but goes way too deep, like it's in a fucking puddle or something. And i wouldn't say the fidelity is 99% either, myself. Of course, might not be noticeable in a busy mix, but might be noticeable in a more minimalist one (as most acid usually is) and might be noticeable both to artists who invest as much in their production as they do in their composition and to listeners who are as discerning with the sound as they are with the music.

Bigs, i'm betting my fucking beermoney that you won't make a Reaktor patch that even touches the very tip of the big fuck-off Saruman beard that the 303 sports. And if you do, just call D16 Group and get rich because that's what they were missing with Phoscyon. Speaking of Phoscyon, if i'm gonna with stuff that is "99% there" in some people's perception, why not go cheaper, handier and potentially (piratentially) free-er.

I really with the Planet Mu forums where still up, there were a couple of posts by Richard himself on some random digital vs. analogue thread that were pretty didactic on this very topic.

Thank you.

What's your budget, anyway? You may consider the reissued SEM. They have one equipped with MIDI and it's a juicy mofo.

I just blew my budget on a voyager. It's gonna be a long time before i buy a 303 or even 303 clone though, and when that time comes it's gonna me more of a treat than a pragmatic purchase.

edit: for a guy with "acid" in his username, i really find it hard to believe that the 303 holds no special place in your heart.

Lube-

You'll note that the second part of my name is a play on the word 'fake'. I use x0xb0xes and an 808 hardware clone (Praise be to Moogah for the mb808). I even have a 909 hardware clone, but sadly it doesn't work.

And when I say 'clone', I mean circuit for circuit recreations.

In all truth, it seems that in raw head-to-head competition people (acid heads) can tell a teebee from an x0xb0x about 70% of the time. But when you stick an x0xb0x in a mix and add even a touch of processing, the distinction quickly falls away.

  On 3/5/2010 at 3:57 AM, Lube Saibot said:

I really with the Planet Mu forums where still up, there were a couple of posts by Richard himself on some random digital vs. analogue thread that were pretty didactic on this very topic.

 

Thank you.

-----------

  Quote

Author: analord

Date: 02-07-05 03:14

 

some people bought the analogue equipment when it was unfashionable and very cheap though.

some of us are over 30 you know!

anyone remember when 303`s were £50? and coke was 16p a tin? crisps 5p

 

also you have overlooked A LOT of other points because its not all about the overall frequency response of the recording system its how the sound gets there in the first place.

here are some things which you can`t get from a plugin,they are often emulated but due to their hugely complex nature are always pretty crass aproximations..

 

the sound of analogue equpiment including EQ, changes very noticably over even a few hours due to temperature changes within a circuit.

Anyone who has tried to make tracs on a few analogue synths and make them stay in tune can tell you this,you leave a trac running for a few hours come back and think Im sure I didnt fucking write that,I must be going mental!

 

this affects all the components in a synth/EQ in an almost infinte amount of tiny ways.

and the amount differs from circuit to circuit depending on the design.

 

the interaction of different channels and their respective signals with an analogue mixer are very complex,EQ,dynamics....

any fx, analogue or digital that are plugged into it all have their own special complex characteristics and all interact with each other differently and change depending on their routing.

Nobody that ive heard of has even begun to start emulating analogue mixer circuitry in software,just the aesthetics,it will come but im sure it will be a crap half hearted effort like most pretend synth plugins are.

they should be called PST synths, P for pretend not virtual.

 

Every piece of outboard gear has its own sound ,reverbs,modulation effects etc

real room reverb, this in itself companies have spent decades trying to emulate and not even got close in my opinion, even the best attempts like Quantec and EMT only scratch the surface.

 

analogue EQ is currently impossible in theory to be emulated digitally,quite intense maths shit involed in this if youre really that interested,you could look it up...good luck.

 

your soundcard will always make things sound like its come from THAT soundcard..they ALL impose their different sound characteristics onto whatever comes out of them they are far from being totally neutral devices.

 

all the components of a circuit like resistors and capacitors subtley differ from each other depending on their quality but even the most high quality milatary spec ones are never EXACTLY the same.

 

no two analogue synths can ever be built exactly the same,there are tiny human/automated errors in building the circuits,tweaking the trimpots for example which is usually done manually in a lot of analogue shit.

just compare the sound of 2 808 drum machines next to each other and you will see what I mean,you always thought an 808 was an 808 right?

same goes for 303`s they all sound subltey different,different voltage scaling of the oscillator is usually quite noticable.

 

VST plugins are restricted by a finite number of calculations per second these factors are WAY beyond their CURRENT capability.

 

Then there is the question of the physicallity of the instrument this affects the way a human will emotionally interact with it and therfore affect what they will actually do with it! often overlooked from the maths heads,this is probably the biggest factor I think.

for example the smell of analogue stuff as well as the look of it puts you in a certain mental state which is very different from looking at a computer screen.

 

then there is analogue tape...ah this really could go on forever....

 

im quite drunk cant be bothered to type anymore...

so yeah,whatever, you obviously dont have to have analogue equipment to make `good` music in case thats the impression im giving,EVERYTHING has its uses .And not all anlaogue equipment is expensive you can still get bargains like old high end military audio devices,tape machines fx etc just go for the unfashionable stuff.

 

Richard.

I have a nord modular g2, a mopho and a novation nova. I like all three! Although the mopho sure does have something special goin on, soundwise. the g2 has something special goin on options wise. the nova has something goin on knobs wise.

a 303 would be awesome but I could never justify it

  On 3/5/2010 at 1:12 AM, Retape said:

  On 3/4/2010 at 10:00 PM, soundwave said:

and this video completely avoids both the points I've made in fact you could have done the same thing with a revolution and got the same results!

 

just posted it for the sake of the discussion.

 

the x0xb0x doesn't sound 110% like the tb-303. is it good enough for 99.9% of the people out there? yeah.

I'd say its more like 85%, sure it can sound very similar in most respects but the 303 does some very strange things that no clone has nailed quite yet.

The Revolution is like a clean, stable 303 the x0x is like its dirty cousin neither get that unique high resonance feedback or the punchy compressed accent right although I did get close using a bass limiter pedal on my old Revolution the sound would clip always at certain settings.

If I can get hold of my mates 303 I'll post the type of sound with the settings I'm talking about.

I've got a FR Revolution. I like it.

ive got a bassstation for analogue. nothing digital comes close to it for prescence, thickness, warmth.

im considering buying a voyager, andromeda & a macbeth m5. also another modular with all the esoteric modules. and a 303. id be happy then.

just need to sell my soul huh.

bass station is digital I'm afraid lala - many people think it's analogue, but it ain't! 'tis analogue emulation.

  On 3/5/2010 at 12:45 PM, BCM said:

bass station is digital I'm afraid lala - many people think it's analogue, but it ain't! 'tis analogue emulation.

ehh? its got vcf... and the oscs arent digital..

edit* i meant cv-gates.

you've made a mistake

on the analog side, I've got only the dsi tetra and an old kawai sx210. I like both, but the kawai has some problems, gotta fix it somehow.

I don't know. I guess I'm not that picky when it comes to 303s. being a poor student (bum) the x0xb0x with all its extra features and a much lower price seemed like a better deal to me. with the money saved not buying a real tb-303 I bought an sh-101 instead.

  On 3/5/2010 at 1:14 PM, BCM said:

also, just coz it's got cv doesn't mean it's sound synthesis is analogue. just means it's got a cv converter built into it (which is very useful).

 

check out http://www.vintagesynth.com/novation/nov_bsk.php if you don't believe me!

Um, read the comments.

  Quote

The first ever 'analog modeling' synth, Nord Lead, didn't come out until 1995. The Novation Bass Station came out 2 years before, when there was no such technology.

 

This analog synth uses DCOs and analog filters! Please check your facts next time, VSE.

Don't ever treat VSE as gospel mang

  On 3/5/2010 at 1:02 PM, lala said:

  On 3/5/2010 at 12:45 PM, BCM said:

bass station is digital I'm afraid lala - many people think it's analogue, but it ain't! 'tis analogue emulation.

 

 

ehh? its got vcf... and the oscs arent digital..

 

edit* i meant cv-gates.

 

 

you've made a mistake

Bass station kb = digital osc

Bass station rack = DCOs (therefore analogue)

bass station rack is indeed analog. The oscs are just digitally controlled just like junos, dave smith stuff, etc. Filter is most certainly analog.

It can get some good sounds, but imo the k-station line or v-station vst can achieve much better sounds, especially in the bass department. Bass station can get really good almost vowel like and kinda ring moddy/cripsy cem type sounds with lots of resonance. The 12 db filter on it is alright at doing bass, certainly worth having around, though I'd pick something else.

ok the rack supposedly has DCOs (though I'm not 100% convinced - this is just what people claim, novation apparently don't mention whether it is analogue emulation or analogue or what...they just kind of avoid the whole debate and keep quiet). anyway, I guess lala has the rack version then if it's got CV outs on it? not sure if the keyboard has them...

but like I said earlier, doesn't matter how it makes the sounds, it's what they end up sounding like and the bass station sounds really good!

  On 3/4/2010 at 4:32 AM, vamos scorcho said:

303s? i've used some pretend ones in reaktor but i'm wondering if you can get similar effects with something like the roland juno 106. i think thats the synth i'm going to go for

 

that or oberheim matrix 1000, probably the juno though and the oberheim later. i just need something with true analog sound to go next level

If you don't mind computer editing I suggest (in this order)

- Dave smith mopho - Mono but with the sub oscs you get a lot out of one voice. (about $300 used on ebay, which is an absurd deal for the power you get). There's also two freeware vst editors in addition to the soundtower one. Also the feedback in this thing is killer and can warm stuff up or completely destroy it depending on settings. You also get external input to the filter with env follower and peak hold which is a nice bonus.

- Matrix 1000: About $250-300. Bread and butter cem. Poly, great filter, very versatile and lost of editing capabilities. Slow envelopes though, I sent Analogue wings (he has one) some midi files from a song I was working on, to run through his and the thing couldn't track it and kept stuttering and messing up. But for the slower pads and fx, etc it's a beast.

- Roland alpha juno 2 or MKS-50 rack (same thing): Poly, classic roland sound, can do some 303 LIKE timbres, but again 303 has a lot to do with sequencing. You can get your hoover and ravey sounds but plenty more and they are only like $250 max used on ebay. And don't forget about the epic lush chours.

Waldorf pulse - $300ish used. 24db moog ladder filter with a bit of a waldorf twist. Excellent synth I just picked one up about a month ago and even though I'm biased being a waldorf fan already, just wow. Thing can be so gentle and so vulgar. It can get some of your 303 type timbres, has a good porta, lots of mod capabilities, very sensitive amplifier. Much better interface than the previously mentioned synths.

Finally

- x0x box: your best 303 emulator at 1/4 the price of a real one. Lots of expansion possibilities, mods, more versatile (though a bit different) sequencer than the 303. USB, and lots of other bonus more modern features (not to mention midi). A bit overpriced since they stopped selling kits, but they are easy to source yourself as the bill of materials is readily available. It is not a 303 but is quite close in many aspects (though as mentioned, very different at certain settings). If you can find one under $600 bucks I'd consider that a good deal. Pay attention to what parts were used as certain ones are more "faithful" to the real 303 sound.

  On 3/5/2010 at 1:11 PM, BCM said:

 

 

anyway, your bass station is a lovely piece of kit and you should think no less of it for being analogue emulation rather than real analogue. it really doesn't matter.

i wouldnt and i know it doesnt matter. was just surprised to hear it being called an emulation.

do remember now reading it had dco's.

anyway, moog, roland, arp:]

you got the rack or keyboard lala? rack apparently has DCOs and the keyboard has a DSP chip and is analogue emulation.

I can't speak for the kb as I've never used it nor the super bass station. But I am certain the rack is analog. Yes it has digitally controlled analog oscillators. It came out in 1995 in the era of the Nord Lead. The rack has the analog "squirt" I call it. When the filter is wide open you can listen on headphones and hear this very faint oscillation that sounds like a little tiny wet high passed squirty sound that is modulated really fast. The only irl thing I can think to compare it to is when you are listening to AM radio in the car and your acceleration on the gas pedal modulates the signal, but it's still completely different sound and is very faint and in the upper frequencies.

Only up until recently could digital and vsts recreate this (ie the d-cam synth squad does this, though its a little different sounding as does the waldorf Largo). Also for its price and the time it came out there was nothing digital coming anywhere close for years compared to the analog tones you can get out of the bass station rack. That said I thought the bass station was pretty thin sounding and the parts used were certainly not "top quality" at the time (hence enabling them to offer it at a low price).

The sound on sound review of the rack states it is analog, and was a/b'ed with a pro one. Despite rumors, I trust my, and others ears on this one.

If I could find a bunch of super bass stations really cheap i'd buy about 5 and poly chain them (since you can do this). I think it would make for a decent poly analog. But for 303's and bass (which is the prime thing it was supposed to do) it kinda falls short. But it's still a very useful synth and if I saw one for around 100 bucks i'd grab it.

I have a Roland SH-201 from 2006. It's cheap as fuck and only virtual-analog but it sounds good enough and it has yummy dedicated knobs for everything instead of menus like the modern JUNO's. I recommend it but I don't know shit about analogue. maybe get a Tetra or that new mini modular Doepfer monosynth that just came out.