Panic attacks

Wasn't in on it man.

On panic attacks, I'm just gonna say this one last thing: one month ago, I would have agreed with you.

In my case, they we're kickstarted by an underlying organic cause (several actually), which have all been fixed since and the attacks have persisted and worsened to the point i couldn't function, sleep, would have a continual standing heartrate of 140 for 6 hours with palpitations (repeated visits to several cardiologists excluded any and all possible heart conditions) etc. Hormonal imbalances also thoroughly checked, not found. Xanax cleared everything up and have resumed the happy living prior to the attacks. Will get treated for a few months, hopefully they will go away. If not i am prepared to take Xanax for the rest of my life, as the attacks were the most horrible things i ever experienced (and, in the past, i was in and out of the hospital for 2 years due to a tumor). I've never been afraid of anything in my life, never had phobias (maybe just heights, a little), am rich, happy, in a loving relationship, relatively accomplished etc. I hate doctors, not trying to get attention, not "crying for help", not anything.

Panic attacks are just a symptom. Read up on "generalized anxiety". It's a brain chemistry thing, and a neuro-vegetative reflex disorder. No hocus pocus, no bullshitting, nothing.

"Fucking brains, how do they work?"

I had to find out the hard way.

I realize the stake that Pfizer has in commercializing Xanax, that statistically it mostly used by capricious or weak-willed divorcees or someshit upon prescription from their psychotherapist (i.e. psychology major) in the US, but that does not negate it's results on treating actual conditions. Down here, only medical doctors can prescribe Xanax. Down here, all psychiatrists are unequivocally MDs. I might consider resuming stupid uneducated hipster rebellion against Big Pharma and "the pedestals of psychiatry" or whatever the fuck you're yammering on once I'm not forced to:

a) have 2mg of alprazolam in my system daily, for a while at least;

or

b) shiver uncontrollably, continually cry (not sob, not a tearful sad sob, just cry stupidly and loudly and screaming) for absolutely no reason and never sleep again, not be able to talk, to think, to eat, to interact, GENUINELY FEEL chest pressure and not be able to breathe unconsciously, GENUINELY FEEL muscle pain and weakness, get angina at 22 from daily 6-hour heart exertion from subconsciously-induced tachycardia, etc etc after not having had a shred of anxiety, of fear, or social reticence, of awkwardness in anything my whole life;

or, maybe

c) man up?

HAHA. I dare any motherfucker in the world to get a panic attack and shrug it off. Chuck Norris couldn't pull that shit off. Troon probably could, but then again he's a "collective".

xxx, please bike in here already and set this idiot straight.

i think i agree with you - it seems like what you're saying is that panic attacks are as real as you make them, which for many people means they're quite real.

i am glad you're saying that there's a way out, because i think there is too. it's different for everybody. if you're ruled by your head, the panic (/depression/anger/voices/mania) seems indistinguishable from who you are.

No, they aren't as real as you make them, it's not a matter of subjective perception. I'll try to make it as facile to understand as possible.

Think of it as sneezing. You can't ever truly sneeze on command, and you can't not sneeze once you get that itch in your sinuses. Sneezing (or rather the ability to sneeze or control sneezing) is unaffected by almost any disease, it has nothing do with your willpower, your personality, your feelings, your perspective. It's completely random. A neuro-vegetative reflex to clear sinuses and breathing pathways when foreign bodies enter them and stimulate nasal ciliae. Sometimes you sneeze even with no dust or pollen or anything around and without having a runny nose.

Now, replace "sometimes, randomly" with "virtually continually" and "sneezing" with point b) in my previous post.

this thread has become pretty similar to my panic attack actually. foreign and numb, with a complete absence of reason. well done chaps!

  On 8/9/2010 at 9:50 PM, kakapo said:

I'm not a troll. I always just assume everyone else is in on it and then play a straight bat. I'm pretty sure Lube was in on it.

 

Wattem has gotten far too nice recently. We need another debacle.

 

Anyway back on topic.

 

Panic attacks don't exist. By that I mean they're only ever a symptom of an underlying cause, could be something straight forward to deal with like high blood pressure, could be more complicated. Find out the cause and deal with it. Panic attacks on their own are nothing, they're a piece of piss to deal with, don't stick them on the psychiatric pedestal.

ahem, let me just bike in again here....

kakapo doesn't know what he's talking aboot:

Panic attacks could be caused by high blood pressure or something more complicated (called general medical condition)... or then again they could be triggered by some traumatic event (psychological traumatic) or might even appear for no apparent reason. it is not a symptom in all cases... in fact, if you want to check out the DSM-IV you'll see Panic Disorder listed and has its own set of symptoms.

they are not a "piece of piss to deal with" as kakapo suggests... he either has had absolutely no experience with them personally or merely had mild anxiety and was told it was a panic attack so sloughs it off now as something easily dealt with. Basically by definition a genuine panic attack is a very intense and sudden activation of the sympathetic nervous system that usually makes the subject feel like he will die (like actually die). The body releases stress hormones in the brain and adrenalin (not in brain) to deal with whatever threat the subject perceives. This perception may in fact be (and usually is) completely non-threatening to everybody else however. From a neuropsychological perspective there are studies of subjects with panic disorder showing less activation between the amygdala (fear center) and the frontal lobe (rational, decision-making section) which may indicate a deficit or suppression of rationality during these attacks. Panic is particularly difficult to deal with as the subject has a hard time not escaping from the threat and thus unfortunately reinforcing the anxiety. I treated a kid once who had jumped out of a moving vehicle 5 times suffering head trauma each time because of intense panic attacks.

anyway, kakapo stop misinforming people.

yeah ^^

i've had to go to the ER over panic attacks before soooo yeah, not something to just ignore or whatever.

also i find it funny that there are two people with deadwood avs that are medically informative. SWAYJIN!

  On 8/10/2010 at 11:28 PM, disparaissant said:

yeah ^^

i've had to go to the ER over panic attacks before soooo yeah, not something to just ignore or whatever.

 

also i find it funny that there are two people with deadwood avs that are medically informative. SWAYJIN!

quite honestly I'm a big deadwood fan but XXX did have his avatar first. I liked it so much I jumped right on the wagon.

+ more like SWEDGIN init?

^ holy....... shit

panic attacks eh? i had one when i was about 9, don't remember the details, just like my dreams....

  On 8/10/2010 at 11:28 PM, disparaissant said:

yeah ^^

i've had to go to the ER over panic attacks before soooo yeah, not something to just ignore or whatever.

Same. The first time I went to ER my GF was feeling my skin and it was cold and clammy, meanwhile I was gasping for air. Oh, and this went on for hours.

The above happened almost everyday, once or twice, for several hours, for several months. Very difficult to ignore.

I'll quite likely never know the cause either.

  On 8/11/2010 at 7:49 AM, xxx said:

So, in general, to me, I see panic attacks and anxiety as adapting poorly to things that appear very threatening. Sometimes they are. Having lasting panic attacks after surviving an IED blast reflects reactions to real threats. But, panic attacks that happen with no set stimulus are infinitely more complex and are usually a mixture of both real and perceived threats.

IME, absolutely.

In the past two years, I just got over some really harsh, crippling depression. It sucks that your sense of self is completely at the mercy of cold, indifferent neuroscience. It also sucks that nobody who's gone through the same thing will ever take it seriously.

  On 8/10/2010 at 10:56 PM, Franklin said:

  On 8/9/2010 at 9:50 PM, kakapo said:

I'm not a troll. I always just assume everyone else is in on it and then play a straight bat. I'm pretty sure Lube was in on it.

 

Wattem has gotten far too nice recently. We need another debacle.

 

Anyway back on topic.

 

Panic attacks don't exist. By that I mean they're only ever a symptom of an underlying cause, could be something straight forward to deal with like high blood pressure, could be more complicated. Find out the cause and deal with it. Panic attacks on their own are nothing, they're a piece of piss to deal with, don't stick them on the psychiatric pedestal.

 

ahem, let me just bike in again here....

 

kakapo doesn't know what he's talking aboot:

Who the fuck are you, Raj Persaud?

  Quote

Panic attacks could be caused by high blood pressure or something more complicated (called general medical condition)... or then again they could be triggered by some traumatic event (psychological traumatic) or might even appear for no apparent reason. it is not a symptom in all cases... in fact, if you want to check out the DSM-IV you'll see Panic Disorder listed and has its own set of symptoms.

 

So a 'panic attack' is a symptom of panic disorder? Please don't bring DSMIV into this. At its best it's a useful and unifying diagnsotic tool, but at its worst it's a fundamentalist text for lazy specialists. And that's before getting near any debate about whether half the stuff should actually be in there.

  Quote

 

they are not a "piece of piss to deal with" as kakapo suggests... he either has had absolutely no experience with them personally or merely had mild anxiety and was told it was a panic attack so sloughs it off now as something easily dealt with.

I was the first person to reply to this thread. As stated, they occurred in conjunction with migraine associated vertigo in my early teenage years. I can still remember the 'blind' panic and the total fragmentation of all cognitive function other than the urge to rip your own heart out because of the adrenal and sensory overload. I very quickly learnt to deal with them because I was lucky that I would usually get some advance warning due to aura. That's not what I mean by 'piece of piss' however.

I want to make it absolutely clear that I am not unsympathetic, nor do I come from the man up school of psychology, but the vast majority of people with some kind of disorder on the depression/anxiety spectrum are in the position of being able to do something about it. They may be able to do it on their own. They may need help from freinds, family or professionals or chemicals, but it is not a lost cause. I assume you feel the same way. That's what I mean by the hyperbole of piece of piss.

I'm going to drift dangerously into it's not a proper illness like cancer you cunts territory, but I've just dealt professionally with a young girl in her twenties who has been told that she will go blind, probably as soon as the next two years. She's talented and had a bright future (still has) but her chosen profession requires sight. Maybe somewhere down the line she'll get it back, but at present there is absolutely fuck all that can be done. That's tough to deal with. Popping xanax and seeing a shrink isn't. (Again that's not disparaging to Lube or anyone else in this thread, I am sympathetic, I genuinely thought we were having a cunt off)

  Quote

 

Basically by definition a genuine panic attack is a very intense and sudden activation of the sympathetic nervous system that usually makes the subject feel like he will die (like actually die). The body releases stress hormones in the brain and adrenalin (not in brain) to deal with whatever threat the subject perceives. This perception may in fact be (and usually is) completely non-threatening to everybody else however. From a neuropsychological perspective there are studies of subjects with panic disorder showing less activation between the amygdala (fear center) and the frontal lobe (rational, decision-making section) which may indicate a deficit or suppression of rationality during these attacks. Panic is particularly difficult to deal with as the subject has a hard time not escaping from the threat and thus unfortunately reinforcing the anxiety. I treated a kid once who had jumped out of a moving vehicle 5 times suffering head trauma each time because of intense panic attacks.

 

anyway, kakapo stop misinforming people.

I'll explain what I mean by 'panic attacks don't exist' and the psychiatric pedestal. I am not referring to the experience you describe above. I'm referring to the fetishization of mental illness. I'm going to use Bipolar Disorder as an example because I think it more clearly explains my point of view. It used to be the rarely seen, boutique and really quite hip mental illness 'manic depression'. Then the DSMIV came along and decided that there just wasn't enough people with it and moved the goalposts to include a greater percentage of the population. Everybody's happy. The doctors are happy because they can label people they probably previously dismissed as a bit mental and at least try some kind of appropriate treatment. The researchers are happy because they can now use statistics like 'one quarter of the population will at some point experience some of the symptoms of bipolar disorder' and secure greater funds. The pharms are happy becuase they've just increased their market share. The patient is happy because he's got a label for his spastic mentalism.

I know someone with a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. He's a cunt. Drinks too much and takes way too much cocaine, which of course is explained away by the impulsive tendencies of bipolar. He's got his label and he's got his excuse. Instead of focusing on tackling his actual problems. I've seen the same thing happen with friends who experience panic attacks. They fetishize it and become blind to everything else, so that the 'panic attack' is now the problem, rather than being a symptom (in the loosest sense of the word) of something else. Now of course I can see the irony of asking someone who experiences panic attacks to retain perspective and keep a view of the larger picture, but that is what I meant by original statement above.

I was just looking for a different article which I think I read in the guardian last month, and I'm usually loathe to quote things in discussion, but came across this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/29/mental-health-diagnostic-manual

I actually don't agree fully with everything that she has to say, but we're probably on the same page.

xxx, thanks

kakapo, i see where you're coming from now, but you're really just being quixotic in my case. i know there's people who just jump headfirst into whatever possible psychiatric diagnosis as justification for... i dunno.... egotism? capriciousness? I've known people like that, and they are truly awful people. And the system enables them, that is true.

But I'm just a guy who was in and out of hospitals for years (for "more genuine" organic conditions), been in fights, been mugged, held at gunpoint, knifepoint and didn't bat a fucking eyelash and after another couple of years gets his first panic attack one morning for absolutely no reason and then feels like his heart is gonna explode and he's got battery acid in his veins 24/7. And then i go to the ER and i do every test possible and everything is ok but I'm shaking like i have parkinsons, everything hurts, my heartbeat is in my head and its too fast and too powerful and i quite literally am feeling like i'm dying.

They tell me I've got "generalized anxiety disorder".

I WAS THE BIGGEST FUCKING SLACKER I DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING. I was basically The Dude, with less scruff and more trust-fund. Wasn't anxiety something relegated exclusively to people who are socially traumatized or awkward somehow? Apparently not. Apparently i can fear absolutely nothing but with an intensity that gives me somatizes perceptibly. Then i start fearing the act of fearing itself and it gets worse.

It really is true, there is nothing to fear but fear itself.

And then some dude gives me alprazolam and all that goes away and i'm me again, at least for now.

I have nothing to do with the basis of your rant.

  On 8/12/2010 at 12:18 AM, Lube Saibot said:

 

kakapo, i see where you're coming from now, but you're really just being quixotic in my case.

 

lol, that's the best put down anyone's thrown in my direction in 8 years of watmm, well played.

  Quote

 

I have nothing to do with the basis of your rant.

 

I wasn't using you as an example. My ranting is very generalized.

That first comment about good and bad panic attacks originally made no reference to AIDS. And then I thought, nah that's too subtle, mental health is an emotive subject on watmm, I better sign post my tongue in my cheek and make my reference as clear as possible. Although, it was in part the product of someone who had experienced panic attacks having read the thread in a sense of discomfort at some of the replies describing mild anxiety, or the 'human condition' as most right thinking people prefer to call it, and wrongly appropriating 'panic attack'. This point seems to have been lost on just about everyone.

I too find it frustrating IRL when i tell some of the few people I've told about this shit and they go, "Oh yeah man i was super-stressed one time too, i smoked so much grass after."

FUCK YOU, I'M NOT "STRESSED", I'M DYING, I HATE WOMEN I HATE MEN I'M A SNAIL!

  On 8/12/2010 at 12:54 AM, kakapo said:

  On 8/12/2010 at 12:18 AM, Lube Saibot said:

 

kakapo, i see where you're coming from now, but you're really just being quixotic in my case.

 

 

lol, that's the best put down anyone's thrown in my direction in 8 years of watmm, well played.

See, my English doesn't seem so second-language-esque any more, does it?

It is my second language though, I actually am Romaniam as per the info under my av.

  On 8/11/2010 at 10:28 PM, kakapo said:

  On 8/10/2010 at 10:56 PM, Franklin said:

  On 8/9/2010 at 9:50 PM, kakapo said:

I'm not a troll. I always just assume everyone else is in on it and then play a straight bat. I'm pretty sure Lube was in on it.

 

Wattem has gotten far too nice recently. We need another debacle.

 

Anyway back on topic.

 

Panic attacks don't exist. By that I mean they're only ever a symptom of an underlying cause, could be something straight forward to deal with like high blood pressure, could be more complicated. Find out the cause and deal with it. Panic attacks on their own are nothing, they're a piece of piss to deal with, don't stick them on the psychiatric pedestal.

 

ahem, let me just bike in again here....

 

kakapo doesn't know what he's talking aboot:

 

Who the fuck are you, Raj Persaud?

 

  Quote

Panic attacks could be caused by high blood pressure or something more complicated (called general medical condition)... or then again they could be triggered by some traumatic event (psychological traumatic) or might even appear for no apparent reason. it is not a symptom in all cases... in fact, if you want to check out the DSM-IV you'll see Panic Disorder listed and has its own set of symptoms.

 

 

So a 'panic attack' is a symptom of panic disorder? Please don't bring DSMIV into this. At its best it's a useful and unifying diagnsotic tool, but at its worst it's a fundamentalist text for lazy specialists. And that's before getting near any debate about whether half the stuff should actually be in there.

 

  Quote

 

they are not a "piece of piss to deal with" as kakapo suggests... he either has had absolutely no experience with them personally or merely had mild anxiety and was told it was a panic attack so sloughs it off now as something easily dealt with.

 

I was the first person to reply to this thread. As stated, they occurred in conjunction with migraine associated vertigo in my early teenage years. I can still remember the 'blind' panic and the total fragmentation of all cognitive function other than the urge to rip your own heart out because of the adrenal and sensory overload. I very quickly learnt to deal with them because I was lucky that I would usually get some advance warning due to aura. That's not what I mean by 'piece of piss' however.

 

I want to make it absolutely clear that I am not unsympathetic, nor do I come from the man up school of psychology, but the vast majority of people with some kind of disorder on the depression/anxiety spectrum are in the position of being able to do something about it. They may be able to do it on their own. They may need help from freinds, family or professionals or chemicals, but it is not a lost cause. I assume you feel the same way. That's what I mean by the hyperbole of piece of piss.

 

I'm going to drift dangerously into it's not a proper illness like cancer you cunts territory, but I've just dealt professionally with a young girl in her twenties who has been told that she will go blind, probably as soon as the next two years. She's talented and had a bright future (still has) but her chosen profession requires sight. Maybe somewhere down the line she'll get it back, but at present there is absolutely fuck all that can be done. That's tough to deal with. Popping xanax and seeing a shrink isn't. (Again that's not disparaging to Lube or anyone else in this thread, I am sympathetic, I genuinely thought we were having a cunt off)

 

  Quote

 

Basically by definition a genuine panic attack is a very intense and sudden activation of the sympathetic nervous system that usually makes the subject feel like he will die (like actually die). The body releases stress hormones in the brain and adrenalin (not in brain) to deal with whatever threat the subject perceives. This perception may in fact be (and usually is) completely non-threatening to everybody else however. From a neuropsychological perspective there are studies of subjects with panic disorder showing less activation between the amygdala (fear center) and the frontal lobe (rational, decision-making section) which may indicate a deficit or suppression of rationality during these attacks. Panic is particularly difficult to deal with as the subject has a hard time not escaping from the threat and thus unfortunately reinforcing the anxiety. I treated a kid once who had jumped out of a moving vehicle 5 times suffering head trauma each time because of intense panic attacks.

 

anyway, kakapo stop misinforming people.

 

I'll explain what I mean by 'panic attacks don't exist' and the psychiatric pedestal. I am not referring to the experience you describe above. I'm referring to the fetishization of mental illness. I'm going to use Bipolar Disorder as an example because I think it more clearly explains my point of view. It used to be the rarely seen, boutique and really quite hip mental illness 'manic depression'. Then the DSMIV came along and decided that there just wasn't enough people with it and moved the goalposts to include a greater percentage of the population. Everybody's happy. The doctors are happy because they can label people they probably previously dismissed as a bit mental and at least try some kind of appropriate treatment. The researchers are happy because they can now use statistics like 'one quarter of the population will at some point experience some of the symptoms of bipolar disorder' and secure greater funds. The pharms are happy becuase they've just increased their market share. The patient is happy because he's got a label for his spastic mentalism.

 

I know someone with a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. He's a cunt. Drinks too much and takes way too much cocaine, which of course is explained away by the impulsive tendencies of bipolar. He's got his label and he's got his excuse. Instead of focusing on tackling his actual problems. I've seen the same thing happen with friends who experience panic attacks. They fetishize it and become blind to everything else, so that the 'panic attack' is now the problem, rather than being a symptom (in the loosest sense of the word) of something else. Now of course I can see the irony of asking someone who experiences panic attacks to retain perspective and keep a view of the larger picture, but that is what I meant by original statement above.

XXX has replied well in true XXX style.... I'll be a bit more brusque:

I understand that Raj P is a psychiatrist and was famous for a time for plagiarizing or something. I'm not sure what you're getting at with your question but, of course, I am not this gentleman. I am a psychotherapist however and direct a company that provides therapeutic interventions like desensitization for ptsd and specific phobia.

I understand that there are faults with the DSM IV, but your claim that its authors have purposefully widened the "goalposts" of certain disorders in order to just include more people is fairly lame. symptom inclusions change over time as we learn more about different disorders. science becomes hip to new information from research or from treatment. It's pretty conspiratorial to believe that all the doctors and pharm companies are in on it so that we can all profit somehow.

The argument that some of these disorders didn't exist in older times is always an interesting one... it could be that because we weren't looking for it we didn't see it.... or it could be that different disorders have developed as biology has changed or as society has changed. Either way we can't just say that they don't exist now when tons of people are walking around with very similar symptoms and are generally not having that great of a time dealing with them.

getting back to the panic part.... you talk about people fetishizing these disorders and not "tackling the real problem." What's the real problem? you're providing a bit of a circular argument so it's difficult to respond to properly.

  On 8/12/2010 at 3:46 AM, xxx said:

The mentally ill understand that there is a component of brain disease that they can only treat with medicine and not do much about currently but that there are basically an infinite number of other dimensions in their life that they can use to forge a recovery that is unique to them and not fall under that trap of "thinking sick". Most people want to get well but were not gifted with your particular resilience in life and have to go find it themselves--a task for which you should muster a slow-clap of your own for.

i laughed out loud so hard when i read the end.

7 pages? panic attacks must be fucking awesome!

i can't be bothered reading all your shit paragraphs. fucking hell you guys can crap on.

  On 8/12/2010 at 12:16 PM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

  On 8/9/2010 at 5:11 PM, azatoth said:

You weak ass pussies and your panic attacks. Man up and deal with it

serious irl lol

that gif is the shit

jesus christ this thread.

this fuckin thread.

  On 8/12/2010 at 1:21 PM, disparaissant said:

jesus christ this thread.

this fuckin thread.

fucking love your avatars.

french fried potaters, mmm hmm