astronomers use a cluster of galaxies as a giant lens

  On 8/23/2010 at 4:04 PM, ET said:

if this is true, an advanced civilization could construct a gigantic alloy sphere to live inside of for the rest of time. if everything thins out and all the galaxies and asteroid belts and stars are so far apart, then this little safe haven could technically exist forever without smashing into anything. they have free energy devices, so that takes care of energy, temperature control, so if they have some kind of ecology on their planet to provide food and water, which they could artificially place, there doesnt have to be an end

 

aliens

 

i just dont see the universe ending

 

and if it is going to end, i can see millions of alien civilizations coming together to defeat nature

 

who will win?

 

aliens vs nature

What fabric would said sphere be made of that isn't affected by the ultimate collapse into a singularity?

  On 8/23/2010 at 1:25 PM, impakt said:

And here's the whole report: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/329/5994/924

 

Digesting it as we speak.

Care to share the text, for those who don't have the money?

I guess I could PM you tomorrow if you promise not to spread it. I have to be at the office to read it though, since my university pays for it.

Yeah man, it stays with me, and only me.

Watching that video, confused me... He seemed to say that it was going to expand so much that there will be nothing... That eventually the universe will go back to zero... Once it's all moved so far apart... But then wouldn't that mean the universe would reboot, as he said if younhave nothing you HAVE to have something, it was inevitable... So if the universe expands into nothing then it will start anew.

Did I miss a key part?

Also, I was very excited about the concept of nothing making something inevitable. I actually came to that conclusion last month in the shower...'it just seemed to make sense... And so i ranted my theory to my gf although I didn't have any scientific reason for it...'it felt true... So when he said that, my heart skipped a beat, and I was happy :)

Well, what you came up with is kind of the theory of the cyclic oscillating universe. A universe that expands until entropy stops the dark energy and gravity pulls it all back into a singularity that explodes back into the universe again and again. This is also what's described in the original(membrane) M-theory, I think.

what is entropy. The online defs are really confusing. Any laymen terms?

Right, but it seemed like the guy was saying that would not happen...'even though what he said made it sound like it should.

not an expert, will totally defer to impakt on this one

  On 8/23/2010 at 8:58 PM, marf said:

what is entropy. The online defs are really confusing. Any laymen terms?

Entropy is not easily described. In this situation it is used in the thermodynamic way that goes to explain the "decay" in energy that is "lost/not usable anymore" through conversion. This explanation probably isn't very correct either, but it should at least give you a nod in the right direction. Hopefully.

its like used coffee grounds?

In general entropy states that everything gets more chaotic/falls apart etc. over time. It's why people get old and wrinkly, and die.

A very simple explanation would be; if something is put in order, it will have a natural tendency to unorder itself in time -- like Alex mentioned with things becoming more chaotic.

question : how does one quantify "order" ?

That's a pretty abstract question. In what field are you thinking about?

Logic. (>maths>physics?). I want something broad.

*insert coin in impakt's slot*

*awaits for answer to spiral down*

paradox is power.

that is why reading this thread made me laugh; it's filled with paradoxical statements, scientific claims, and random words you pull out of thin air and sprinkle in there to fill in the blanks.

scientific jargon like this, is exactly that; jargon. it attempts to explain the universe as something innately void of anything, and yet from which everything came. solidifying the meaningless existence.

well, that's where i tend to disagree. our existence is more than meaningful. it is vital for the growth of the whole of existence. the entire universe is the sum of all it's parts, and us thinking, loving, conscious beings, are reflections of the sum; a thinking, conscious being of unconditional love. we are but one expression of an infinite amount of expressions emanating from the center of existence, and manifesting on every level of existence, gathering lessons and experiences, expressing our own truths, as we see them, through our own unique lenses, to ultimately benefit the whole.

to elaborate on the paradoxes; the harder we try to think as separate from the thinking, couscous whole, the more paradox we experience. we try to master our identities, and develop a material status. we try to control and use every aspect of our physical reality, so that it satisfies our separated, fabricated ego's. then we forget to look within; towards the ineffable center of our being that constellates everything around it to have meaning. we have lost the way. that is why we look to the field of science for universal answers and meaning, and when we do, we get only contradiction and paradox. if we concentrated on developing the vehicle of our imagination and our intuition with the same vigor we used to develop our egos, it would do wonders for the understanding in the nature of our reality, as well as that of our existence.

paradox is powerful, because it follows and reveals patterns that wouldn't be seen otherwise, and the whole of existence is littered with patterns, manifesting themselves over and over again, for all to see; that there is an order to all this, and that we are all capable of tuning into this fact.

we exist! we are something (not just physical) and we can't do shit about that! if we can get patterns of infinite love sprinkled into our meaningless scientific jargon, then we can certainly get an idea of what an awesome, vast existence we are a all part of!

  On 8/24/2010 at 9:18 AM, impotentwhitecapitalist said:

paradox is power.

 

that is why reading this thread made me laugh; it's filled with paradoxical statements, scientific claims, and random words you pull out of thin air and sprinkle in there to fill in the blanks.

 

scientific jargon like this, is exactly that; jargon. it attempts to explain the universe as something innately void of anything, and yet from which everything came. solidifying the meaningless existence.

 

well, that's where i tend to disagree. our existence is more than meaningful. it is vital for the growth of the whole of existence. the entire universe is the sum of all it's parts

i'd like to point out that you seem to employ those "paradoxical statements, scientific claims, and random words" you're disparaging, but maybe it's intentional.

  On 8/24/2010 at 8:44 AM, Babar said:

Logic. (>maths>physics?). I want something broad.

 

*insert coin in impakt's slot*

*awaits for answer to spiral down*

I am not sure if I can answer something so broad without reflecting on it first. Your question seems to be more in a philosophical fashion, but I want to give an answer that could cover all fields. If I manage to do so I will post it.

I guess order is the absence of chaos, unpredictability. So if a system is in order you would be able to predict the logical outcome of the successive increment or following action? Quantifying it would then be measuring the order in a system, possibly best done by inverting the measured chaos? This is a very broad explanation of course and it will probably seem out of place if you try to apply it to different sciences.

  On 8/24/2010 at 9:18 AM, impotentwhitecapitalist said:

the harder we try to think as separate from the thinking, couscous whole,

wut?

every time i try to separate myself from couscous, i find myself cooking in a pool of water. im trying to realize why im suddenly couscous, but then suddenly im done and i go into a giant ceramic half circle room, and then giant metal spears stab all of my friends and suck them into a weird hole. i fear i may be next...until i remember that we are all one couscous...

many astronomers concluded this a while ago

but of course it goes without saying that we don't know enough about dark matter/energy and how it relates to gravity or time to be sure.

this guy proclaiming that he's knows this is either making a challenge (disprove him) or doesn't respect science.

So, this is pretty fascinating shit. I've always thought that the Universe was likely cyclical, expanding to a point and then contracting as black holes slowly draw everything together into one massive singularity and then, as the last piece of matter is absorbed, reaching a critical mass and big-banging. I also always feared that Deja Vu was just us remembering one of the infinite iterations of this life that have come before.

Anyway, so, just to clarify, is this research saying that, basically, everything will keep expanding, that the overall motion won't ever rubber-band back, and that eventually all energy will basically peter out?

I'm also not very clear on wtf dark energy is - though I gather most astrophysicists aren't particularly clear either.

edit: Also, energy can't be created or destroyed right? Just transferred? So does that mean all energy turns into "dark energy?" in the end? That so Sith.