Wisconsin Protests

Exactly. Anyone who is not a millionaire who hates on unions just doesn't know what's good for them.

Hey ET you wanted some conspiracy theory kinda stuff, here's something for you:

The Koch brothers may be involved. Heavily involved.

  On 2/18/2011 at 9:51 PM, chaosmachine said:

my only experience with unions: ottawa's 51 day bus strike in the middle of winter. there's no reason bus drivers should get paid $85k/year when nurses are getting $60k.

 

there may be times and places where unions do good, but most of them just serve to inflate wages and entrench incompetence.

you should take a look at the first two charts here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-sorscher/making-business-succeed_b_812684.html

  On 2/19/2011 at 6:20 PM, DeadlyTowers said:

  On 2/18/2011 at 9:51 PM, chaosmachine said:

my only experience with unions: ottawa's 51 day bus strike in the middle of winter. there's no reason bus drivers should get paid $85k/year when nurses are getting $60k.

 

there may be times and places where unions do good, but most of them just serve to inflate wages and entrench incompetence.

 

you should take a look at the first two charts here:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-sorscher/making-business-succeed_b_812684.html

so, basically unions have done nothing productive for workers in the last 35 years?

  On 2/19/2011 at 6:23 PM, chaosmachine said:

  On 2/19/2011 at 6:20 PM, DeadlyTowers said:

  On 2/18/2011 at 9:51 PM, chaosmachine said:

my only experience with unions: ottawa's 51 day bus strike in the middle of winter. there's no reason bus drivers should get paid $85k/year when nurses are getting $60k.

 

there may be times and places where unions do good, but most of them just serve to inflate wages and entrench incompetence.

 

you should take a look at the first two charts here:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-sorscher/making-business-succeed_b_812684.html

 

so, basically unions have done nothing productive for workers in the last 35 years?

  Quote

Unionized workers in blue-collar occupations averaged $18.88 per hour, compared with $12.95 for nonunion blue-collar workers. The highest paid blue-collar workers among the major occupational groups were precision production, craft, and repair workers; in this group, union workers had average hourly earnings of $23.05, compared with $16.33 for nonunion workers.

the only jobs that actually have increasing wages are union jobs. the rest are stagnating. unions have lost loads of power over the last 35 years, but the ones that are still kicking are doing great things for their employees.

  On 2/19/2011 at 6:23 PM, chaosmachine said:

so, basically unions have done nothing productive for workers in the last 35 years?

I think unions have done amazing things in the past, but I think now they suffer the same corruption that caused them to be formed in the first place (speaking generally, not about the particular situation in wisco). As I said earlier... when unemployment is at 9%, the private sector is barely holding on, threatening to strike over a 2% wage increase is absolutely ridiculous.

  On 2/19/2011 at 6:51 PM, EDGEY said:

  On 2/19/2011 at 6:23 PM, chaosmachine said:

so, basically unions have done nothing productive for workers in the last 35 years?

I think unions have done amazing things in the past, but I think now they suffer the same corruption that caused them to be formed in the first place (speaking generally, not about the particular situation in wisco). As I said earlier... when unemployment is at 9%, the private sector is barely holding on, threatening to strike over a 2% wage increase is absolutely ridiculous.

It's honestly not that ridiculous, considering how wide the gap between rich and poor has become over the last 30 or so years. The private sector isn't suffering, the rich aren't making as much money as they want to be making, so they take it out on the poor.

This sounds like a shitty situation. I won't pretend to be informed about what's going on outside of what I've read in this thread.

I'm somewhat tempted to go on a rant about how overpaid the union workers are here in Seattle, but I won't. I do disagree with the standard of paying union members upwards of $30/hr for the same work that I was happily paid $13/hr for, but that could very well just be a local phenomenon. Apparently the Seattle Labor Unions agreed to only take a 0.6% pay increase in 2011, as opposed to the 2% increase they were asking for (this bargain happened because the city is $65mil in debt).

At any rate, hopefully this Wisconsin business turns out for the best for the workers and the city.

One thing I've seen no one mention here is how unions impact an independent business, small or large. I have a friend who runs his father's business that was started back in the early 80s in New York, and the company basically does pretty well for itself negotiating corporate contracts for work. However, he's always getting hassled by the unions for every single thing under the sun, for not unionizing. For example he was doing a sheet metal sign installation at a bank, so the sheet metal workers union picketed the actual installation. They leave him threatening voicemail and are just totally awful about him "not paying his dues". The irony of all this is...he is the exact opposite of an uber-capitalist business owner. He prides himself on providing bigger rewards for his employees (such as nice insurance and 401k with a match) simply because he wants them to be working for him in the long run. So what it boils down to is, the unions want him to join because they want his money, and if he did that, his current employment structure might fail because he wouldn't be able to treat his employees as well after all the union dues. I'm sure unions are probably different in a lot of different states, depending on what the employment/unemployment rate is there, so I'm not making any big assumptions about it. From what I've seen in this case with my friend though, unions are a real bitch.

  On 2/19/2011 at 7:19 PM, Mellow U said:

One thing I've seen no one mention here is how unions impact an independent business, small or large. I have a friend who runs his father's business that was started back in the early 80s in New York, and the company basically does pretty well for itself negotiating corporate contracts for work. However, he's always getting hassled by the unions for every single thing under the sun, for not unionizing. For example he was doing a sheet metal sign installation at a bank, so the sheet metal workers union picketed the actual installation. They leave him threatening voicemail and are just totally awful about him "not paying his dues". The irony of all this is...he is the exact opposite of an uber-capitalist business owner. He prides himself on providing bigger rewards for his employees (such as nice insurance and 401k with a match) simply because he wants them to be working for him in the long run. So what it boils down to is, the unions want him to join because they want his money, and if he did that, his current employment structure might fail because he wouldn't be able to treat his employees as well after all the union dues. I'm sure unions are probably different in a lot of different states, depending on what the employment/unemployment rate is there, so I'm not making any big assumptions about it. From what I've seen in this case with my friend though, unions are a real bitch.

They can be.

I've worked a lot in film in NYC and I've seen the bad side too. I was also harassed on a set for not being a union member.

I also have loved ones that work for the railroads and some of their union's policies can seem counterproductive, if not destructive at times.

They aren't always going to be perfect, but the country would basically be medieval in power and class divisions if it weren't for their presence.

Ultimately, unions serve as safeguards that prevent those who otherwise would be powerless with protection from exploitation.

However shitty your friend's situation is, if the unions are dismantled in the way that Scott Walker and his counterparts desire, you can bet your ass that things will be looking a lot more grim in this country.

btw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZsOKNfNkfQ&feature=player_embedded

  On 2/19/2011 at 12:34 AM, jefferoo said:

  On 2/19/2011 at 12:03 AM, Babar said:

 

 

Socialism, neoliberalism, socialism, neoliberalism. ARG that's a hard choice to make ! Can you guys help me make up my mind here ?

What is neoliberalism?

 

neoliberalism as far as i understand it is the modern form of american corporatist imperialism rebranded by centrist status quo maintaining democrats or centrists in liberals clothing. One aspect is the believed humanitarianism of bringing world peace through arial bombing. the Clintons, Kerrys and Obamas of the world are pretty much neoliberals. edit: unfortunately just like neoconservatism, it has completely taken over the democratic party to the point of real liberals like Kucinich and Barbara Lee being ostracized as 'far left radicals'

  On 2/19/2011 at 1:21 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

 

Its dangerous to assume Democrat=good, Republican=racist evil guy.

yeah, and i would argue it's one of the fundamental problems with creating real change with this country, team loyalty tribalism over actually rationally thinking about issues

Who needs to think, when you can just feel it?

  On 2/20/2011 at 10:00 AM, Awepittance said:

  On 2/19/2011 at 1:21 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

 

Its dangerous to assume Democrat=good, Republican=racist evil guy.

 

yeah, and i would argue it's one of the fundamental problems with creating real change with this country, team loyalty tribalism over actually rationally thinking about issues

Who said "democrat = good"?

I certainly didn't.

I did essentially imply "republican = evil", because it is true.

We are living in an artificially induced state of consciousness that resembles sleep. The poor and the underclass are growing. Racial justice and human rights are nonexistent.

They have created a repressive society and we are their unwitting accomplices. Their intention to rule rests with the annihilation of consciousness.

We have been lulled into a trance.

They have made us indifferent, to ourselves, to others, we are focused only on our own gain. They are safe as long as they are not discovered. That is their primary method of survival. Keep us asleep, keep us selfish, keep us sedated. They are dismantling the sleeping middle class.

More and more people are becoming poor. We are their cattle. We are being bred for slavery.

we have taken to sleeping with pills in our jars

this is the only world

one reality once real

don't shake the sheep awake

one man's burden is another's buns

how sullen can the farmer's daughter be...after everything?

when eras pass us by like commercials, how long until we forget ourselves?

digitized plastic

trash

melting baseball caps

the brim of the world is an ice sore

flying amidst the trees

when will it all wait?

finally!

the end is night

if you feel it, do you know it?

too much wonder...wonder years

wonder ages

wisconsin

hangin out

down the street

the same old thing

we did last week

not a thing to do

but talk to you

we're all alright

we're all alright!

i love wisconsin!

  On 2/21/2011 at 3:31 AM, Alcofribas said:

 

too much wonder...wonder years

 

wonder ages

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew3JBnZZFRQ

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general

Paul Krugman really nails the whole thing in this op/ed.

  On 2/21/2011 at 1:54 AM, jefferoo said:

  On 2/20/2011 at 10:00 AM, Awepittance said:

  On 2/19/2011 at 1:21 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

 

Its dangerous to assume Democrat=good, Republican=racist evil guy.

 

yeah, and i would argue it's one of the fundamental problems with creating real change with this country, team loyalty tribalism over actually rationally thinking about issues

 

Who said "democrat = good"?

I certainly didn't.

I did essentially imply "republican = evil", because it is true.

i didn't say you did, i was responding to what Smettingham said. but i would disagree with what you said here, i don't think its as clear cut as that. There is more than plenty of evil within the democratic party.

  On 2/21/2011 at 5:52 PM, disparaissant said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general

Paul Krugman really nails the whole thing in this op/ed.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Quote

Last week, in the face of protest demonstrations against Wisconsin’s new union-busting governor, Scott Walker — demonstrations that continued through the weekend, with huge crowds on Saturday — Representative Paul Ryan made an unintentionally apt comparison: “It’s like Cairo has moved to Madison.”

 

It wasn’t the smartest thing for Mr. Ryan to say, since he probably didn’t mean to compare Mr. Walker, a fellow Republican, to Hosni Mubarak. Or maybe he did — after all, quite a few prominent conservatives, including Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum, denounced the uprising in Egypt and insist that President Obama should have helped the Mubarak regime suppress it.

 

In any case, however, Mr. Ryan was more right than he knew. For what’s happening in Wisconsin isn’t about the state budget, despite Mr. Walker’s pretense that he’s just trying to be fiscally responsible. It is, instead, about power. What Mr. Walker and his backers are trying to do is to make Wisconsin — and eventually, America — less of a functioning democracy and more of a third-world-style oligarchy. And that’s why anyone who believes that we need some counterweight to the political power of big money should be on the demonstrators’ side.

 

Some background: Wisconsin is indeed facing a budget crunch, although its difficulties are less severe than those facing many other states. Revenue has fallen in the face of a weak economy, while stimulus funds, which helped close the gap in 2009 and 2010, have faded away.

 

In this situation, it makes sense to call for shared sacrifice, including monetary concessions from state workers. And union leaders have signaled that they are, in fact, willing to make such concessions.

 

But Mr. Walker isn’t interested in making a deal. Partly that’s because he doesn’t want to share the sacrifice: even as he proclaims that Wisconsin faces a terrible fiscal crisis, he has been pushing through tax cuts that make the deficit worse. Mainly, however, he has made it clear that rather than bargaining with workers, he wants to end workers’ ability to bargain.

 

The bill that has inspired the demonstrations would strip away collective bargaining rights for many of the state’s workers, in effect busting public-employee unions. Tellingly, some workers — namely, those who tend to be Republican-leaning — are exempted from the ban; it’s as if Mr. Walker were flaunting the political nature of his actions.

 

Why bust the unions? As I said, it has nothing to do with helping Wisconsin deal with its current fiscal crisis. Nor is it likely to help the state’s budget prospects even in the long run: contrary to what you may have heard, public-sector workers in Wisconsin and elsewhere are paid somewhat less than private-sector workers with comparable qualifications, so there’s not much room for further pay squeezes.

 

So it’s not about the budget; it’s about the power.

 

In principle, every American citizen has an equal say in our political process. In practice, of course, some of us are more equal than others. Billionaires can field armies of lobbyists; they can finance think tanks that put the desired spin on policy issues; they can funnel cash to politicians with sympathetic views (as the Koch brothers did in the case of Mr. Walker). On paper, we’re a one-person-one-vote nation; in reality, we’re more than a bit of an oligarchy, in which a handful of wealthy people dominate.

 

Given this reality, it’s important to have institutions that can act as counterweights to the power of big money. And unions are among the most important of these institutions.

 

You don’t have to love unions, you don’t have to believe that their policy positions are always right, to recognize that they’re among the few influential players in our political system representing the interests of middle- and working-class Americans, as opposed to the wealthy. Indeed, if America has become more oligarchic and less democratic over the last 30 years — which it has — that’s to an important extent due to the decline of private-sector unions.

 

And now Mr. Walker and his backers are trying to get rid of public-sector unions, too.

 

There’s a bitter irony here. The fiscal crisis in Wisconsin, as in other states, was largely caused by the increasing power of America’s oligarchy. After all, it was superwealthy players, not the general public, who pushed for financial deregulation and thereby set the stage for the economic crisis of 2008-9, a crisis whose aftermath is the main reason for the current budget crunch. And now the political right is trying to exploit that very crisis, using it to remove one of the few remaining checks on oligarchic influence.

 

So will the attack on unions succeed? I don’t know. But anyone who cares about retaining government of the people by the people should hope that it doesn’t.

 

 

good article, thanks for that.

Can someone please just make the Koch Bros. disappear? They seem to be causing lots of trouble.

  On 2/21/2011 at 10:09 PM, patternoverlap said:

Can someone please just make the Koch Bros. disappear? They seem to be causing lots of trouble.

careful. some schizophrenic might take you seriously

  On 2/21/2011 at 8:49 PM, Awepittance said:

  On 2/21/2011 at 1:54 AM, jefferoo said:

  On 2/20/2011 at 10:00 AM, Awepittance said:

  On 2/19/2011 at 1:21 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

 

Its dangerous to assume Democrat=good, Republican=racist evil guy.

 

yeah, and i would argue it's one of the fundamental problems with creating real change with this country, team loyalty tribalism over actually rationally thinking about issues

 

Who said "democrat = good"?

I certainly didn't.

I did essentially imply "republican = evil", because it is true.

 

i would disagree with what you said here, i don't think its as clear cut as that.

How do you explain this then...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO8RE1UM8Yg&feature=player_embedded

Cold, hard proof of the evil and crookedness of the Wisconsin republicans in the State Assembly. They called for a vote at 5pm, and then had their party members arrive early to vote before the proper time. The Democrats arrived on time at 5pm to find the votes had already taken place at 4:58. Unbelievable.

This is evidence of the fact that not only are they trying to do away with unions, but they are doing away with democracy.

This is straight up Nazi shit. I'm sorry but it is.

How can you defend this? How can you?!!!

So fucked up.

btw

It is the whole lot of them, not just one republican fuck-up. THE WHOLE LOT OF THEM!

*edit*

also, Governor Walker tweeted this:

"Welcome to WI is what I say to the paid protesters who are being bussed in from Chicago on Mon. Glad u will b spending $ on food & gas here."

http://twitter.com/govwalker

That is a straight up evil fucking lie.

I have friends and family that live in Madison and that have traveled from all over Wisconsin and Illinois to go to these protests out of their own sense of decency, civic duty and HUMANITY! Who the fuck does he think he is fucking talking about?!! That fucking lying prick says people are being paid to come up in buses to protest! Fuck him.

  On 2/21/2011 at 11:45 PM, hahathhat said:

  On 2/21/2011 at 10:09 PM, patternoverlap said:

Can someone please just make the Koch Bros. disappear? They seem to be causing lots of trouble.

 

careful. some schizophrenic might take you seriously

DO IT!

*voice in your head*

  On 2/22/2011 at 5:15 AM, jefferoo said:

  On 2/21/2011 at 8:49 PM, Awepittance said:

  On 2/21/2011 at 1:54 AM, jefferoo said:

  On 2/20/2011 at 10:00 AM, Awepittance said:

  On 2/19/2011 at 1:21 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

 

Its dangerous to assume Democrat=good, Republican=racist evil guy.

 

yeah, and i would argue it's one of the fundamental problems with creating real change with this country, team loyalty tribalism over actually rationally thinking about issues

 

Who said "democrat = good"?

I certainly didn't.

I did essentially imply "republican = evil", because it is true.

 

i would disagree with what you said here, i don't think its as clear cut as that.

 

 

How do you explain this then...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO8RE1UM8Yg&feature=player_embedded

 

Cold, hard proof of the evil and crookedness of the Wisconsin republicans in the State Assembly. They called for a vote at 5pm, and then had their party members arrive early to vote before the proper time. The Democrats arrived on time at 5pm to find the votes had already taken place at 4:58. Unbelievable.

This is evidence of the fact that not only are they trying to do away with unions, but they are doing away with democracy.

 

This is straight up Nazi shit. I'm sorry but it is.

How can you defend this? How can you?!!!

So fucked up.

 

btw

It is the whole lot of them, not just one republican fuck-up. THE WHOLE LOT OF THEM!

 

 

 

*edit*

 

also, Governor Walker tweeted this:

 

"Welcome to WI is what I say to the paid protesters who are being bussed in from Chicago on Mon. Glad u will b spending $ on food & gas here."

http://twitter.com/govwalker

 

That is a straight up evil fucking lie.

I have friends and family that live in Madison and that have traveled from all over Wisconsin and Illinois to go to these protests out of their own sense of decency, civic duty and HUMANITY! Who the fuck does he think he is fucking talking about?!! That fucking lying prick says people are being paid to come up in buses to protest! Fuck him.

you are missing the point. of course me and awe (at least I assume he does) sympathize with what is happening as a downright oppressive, decisively undemocratic act.

but your reliance on political kneejerk blanket statements that all people that vote one way can be ticked off a checklist is incredibly dangerous.

what does kim jong il say? all Westerners are evil. the populous believes that no problem....is this accusation accurate? maybe in some cases, but certainly not all.

yet it makes for an incredibly useful population control.

the way you are processing this information really worries me, because if some sort of violence broke out in this country it would almost be guaranteed that violent crimes against humanity will be done in the names of BOTH parties....it already has around the world.