Wisconsin Protests

the system will never change because those that control it are in great position to profit from it

That's quite a narrow view. All political periods are transient, might not happen in our lifetime, but it will happen. Also it might get worse instead of better =)

  On 3/13/2011 at 2:14 AM, theSun said:

the problem with the teachers union, for example, is that they negotiate contracts that give tenure to senior teachers (after 5-10 years). teachers with tenure are impossible to fire, no matter how bad their performance is. unions are seen as protecting these shitty teachers that have seniority, rather than giving more incentive for performance.

At that extreme I can see a problem, but on the other hand, if the state does not increase teaching wages at the rate of inflation, for example, or change their contracts to something fairly egregious, the state is essentially fucking the teachers. Being at the state has practical--and rightly so imo, free education for the masses etc--monopoly on education what can the teachers do except strike? If, say, they're striking not out of fairness, but out of greed, then there's a problem. But that's more a case for firm handed reform. Collective bargaining rights of those in a dead end due to justified state monopolies seems fairly important to be extinguished completely.

looks like people are still turning out, and in larger numbers than ever. good. from salon-

  Quote

The largest crowd yet has descended on Wisconsin's Capitol to protest cuts to public worker collective bargaining rights day after Gov. Scott Walker signed the measure into law.

 

Protests have rocked the Capitol almost every day since Walker unveiled his proposal. But Madison Police estimate Saturday's crowd as the largest at 85,000 to 100,000 by late afternoon.

 

Demonstrators say they're undeterred after lawmakers passed the legislation this week and Walker to put his signature on it Friday. Labor leaders have promised to fire up members and mount a major counterattack against Republicans at the ballot box in 2012.

 

High school English teacher Judy Gump says passage of the measure "is so not the end." She says "this is what makes people more determined and makes them dig in."

will Wisconsin be the next Tunisia/Egypt/Libya?

lol?

ive see4n postings of teacher's salaries in various states, and I dont know how credible they are, as many of them (they are from right-wing blogs) have an average salary at 70k, with the lowest on the median being about 55k....that doesn't make any sense to me...

the Maryland County I grew up in at a ceiling salary of 70k for high school teachers, but thats with an MA as well as at least 15 years of continuous service...and Ive been told its the second most highly paid in the state....i dont know where they are getting their numbers from.

also the whole fallacy of "they only work from 8 to 230" is complete nonsense. Most around here stay on average until 4-430 for meetings and presentations...thats pretty damn close to a normal workday.

the whole nonsense about teachers having the summer off seems a bit sketchy too...im sure for most it requires meetings and entering the school far earlier than students do to prepare lesson plans and review textbooks.

can someone provide me an insight as to where the anti-teacher legislators are getting this salary info?

also, professors making a shitload of money is incredibly understandable if you look at their income on an individual basis. Often these teachers are paid around 80-100k because of the accomplishments outside of class in forms of traveling lectures, outside research, and grants that build the names and prestige of the universities.

maybe teachers are overpaid, but it doesn't seem like much.

also, from personal experience, the whole private vs. public uni doesn't pan out. ive gained a far more valuable education within a public university than I did in the private, for a number of reasons.

americans seem to get massive boners over the whole concept of private, non-state things. even if they're really shitty. i dungetit lol

I just stopped back in this thread to say that Salman Khan and khanacademy.org are truly awesome.

privatization isn't shitty at all for the people that run things. they can make more money that way and ultimately couldn't care less for the greater public good.

I love the people that want to cut down on teacher's salaries, then in the next breath turn around and complain that the education system sucks. I can just see their reasoning: "Yes, these people are going to be spending the better part of the day with little johnny or little susan from the time they are 6 until they are 18. Let's pay them peanuts and then threaten to sue them if they try to discipline johnny/susan and/or teach them to question their parents."

  On 3/13/2011 at 10:33 PM, chenGOD said:

I love the people that want to cut down on teacher's salaries, then in the next breath turn around and complain that the education system sucks. I can just see their reasoning: "Yes, these people are going to be spending the better part of the day with little johnny or little susan from the time they are 6 until they are 18. Let's pay them peanuts and then threaten to sue them if they try to discipline johnny/susan and/or teach them to question their parents."

basically, you get this degree and either go on to a masters or do education. Once people would would be swayed towards the latter course as it was seen as both a secure and a respected career path, with compensations for not having taken your own path further to more lucrative climes. Kids currently facing that fork in the road, must rightly be wavering at pursuing the latter path.

  On 3/13/2011 at 8:20 PM, luke viia said:

I just stopped back in this thread to say that Salman Khan and khanacademy.org are truly awesome.

yeah for rael

i think its because we have reached such an astounding climate of anti-intellectualism that anything involving critical thinking outside of business models is worthless....and the sad thing is, i can sorta see where that hostility is coming from

since im hoping to go on to higher education ive been keeping an eye on the US job market for humanities PhD's...and they are rapidly shrinking to the point where one university opening will see over 200 applicants.

all people care about now is science, math, and business. anything else is a waste of time through their eyes.

  On 3/12/2011 at 6:27 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

the question that gets me though is that I don't think the American populous or any portion of it can really successfully pull off a protest (i mean a REAL one that actually works in favor of the protesters)...with all the new anti-riot equipment, and the majority of Americans absolutely despise protesters of any kind fueled by a distorted media perception...

 

i know i always sound pessimistic, but i really cant help but feel the time where something actually could have been done has since long passed away.

you're right to an extent but you're also wrong. Here is why, there are still plenty of very effective methods of civil disobedience that people are simply too afraid to practice.

One great example of this is when Tim DeChristopher, an activist bid on over 1.8 million dollars worth of land that was being auctioned off by the federal government to oil companies and mineral people.

the Obama justice department and the corporate structures were so angry at what he did that they refused his plea/agreement to actually pay off the 1.8 million dollars, they want to throw him in prison for 10 years as a punishment, or more specifically as a message to send to anybody else wanted to do this kind of civil disobedience.

What this tells me is that individuals still very much hold power, its the illusion that they don't and this dogmatic fatalistic view that there is absolutely nothing one can do thats actually the source of the powerlessness

http://www.bidder70.org/news/view/164099/?topic=16689

  On 3/13/2011 at 11:01 PM, Awepittance said:

  On 3/12/2011 at 6:27 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

the question that gets me though is that I don't think the American populous or any portion of it can really successfully pull off a protest (i mean a REAL one that actually works in favor of the protesters)...with all the new anti-riot equipment, and the majority of Americans absolutely despise protesters of any kind fueled by a distorted media perception...

 

i know i always sound pessimistic, but i really cant help but feel the time where something actually could have been done has since long passed away.

 

 

you're right to an extent but you're also wrong. Here is why, there are still plenty of very effective methods of civil disobedience that people are simply too afraid to practice.

 

One great example of this is when Tim DeChristopher, an activist bid on over 1.8 million dollars worth of land that was being auctioned off by the federal government to oil companies and mineral people.

 

the Obama justice department and the corporate structures were so angry at what he did that they refused his plea/agreement to actually pay off the 1.8 million dollars, they want to throw him in prison for 10 years as a punishment, or more specifically as a message to send to anybody else wanted to do this kind of civil disobedience.

What this tells me is that individuals still very much hold power, its the illusion that they don't and this dogmatic fatalistic view that there is absolutely nothing one can do thats actually the source of the powerlessness

http://www.bidder70.org/news/view/164099/?topic=16689

but this is what im saying in terms of the protest actually benefiting the protesters. how did anyone benefit from this? sure it raised awareness of corruption, but what doesn't these days?

seems the guy just got thrown in jail, punished, nothing affected the overall outcome, and most could care less....i mean, hell, i remember hearing a news stub on npr about it a while back and then nothing. if you expect the populous, and thats everyone including me to dig through articles finding evidence o f mass corruption, thats mind blowing in of itself.

secondly, what do you do next? if you show the evidence to others who haven't done the research, what is their response?

i really think the US is a rarity in the sense that comparatively we have a populous who has access to numerous channels of information, but none are acted on outside the mainstream narrative. we as a populous willfully choose ignorance in the face of torrents of allegations and damning evidence.

it just seems in short we arent willing to admit what truly needs to be done. by the time people are ready, it will be violent, and we know who will have the advantage in that situation...the military and militaristic minded people. US citizens for the most part believe in correcting the government through the government, they aren't prepared to risk life and limb for civil liberties....,and if armed conflict was to happen, how likely would it be that it ends in anything other than a hardcore right-wing or reactionary coup?

i mean, for chrissakes, a great example is the daily show.

whenever fox news or cbs or what have you mentions policy as truth, Jon Stewart and Co. make mincemeat out of it by showing the exact same news networks saying the opposite.

how does the audience react? with disgust, but also laughter. its hilarious to us, not damning and inspirational to the point of true mass protest. we willingly reject the truth in favor of holding on to what little we have left.

i know im all over the place on this, and i appreciate what you are saying, but ive been sitting here bringing this shit up to just about everyone I know on a regular basis...and I am met with condescending laughter and even threats from people that were formerly friendly to me.

no joke, i literally had a friend of a friend tell me that if a fascist government took complete martial law and control over the country, she would be the first to report me to the authorities. this is openly and in public, and no one else had a problem with that...shit, im willing to bet that other people in the vicinity were nodding their heads deep inside of themselves.

  On 3/13/2011 at 10:33 PM, chenGOD said:

I love the people that want to cut down on teacher's salaries, then in the next breath turn around and complain that the education system sucks. I can just see their reasoning: "Yes, these people are going to be spending the better part of the day with little johnny or little susan from the time they are 6 until they are 18. Let's pay them peanuts and then threaten to sue them if they try to discipline johnny/susan and/or teach them to question their parents."

this brings up an important problem that i see in the us, and that is parents expecting the teachers to be 100% of education. there's no discipline at home, how can the kids expect to behave and succeed in class?

  On 3/13/2011 at 11:18 PM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

but this is what im saying in terms of the protest actually benefiting the protesters. how did anyone benefit from this? sure it raised awareness of corruption, but what doesn't these days?

What you are forgetting is that many people have seemingly fruitlessly protested before. How else do you think we got all these rights in the first place. They sure as hell didn't come from your constitution. It was decades of long struggle, where one action when seen in isolation may appear to have been a net loss to those involved. And for many it was, they lost their jobs, were made social pariahs, were beaten, imprisoned and even killed. But overall it effected the consciousness of a nation.

given the exponential rise in technology and what can be achieved with using such technology, there is far less time to do so.

  On 3/14/2011 at 12:31 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

given the exponential rise in technology and what can be achieved with using such technology, there is far less time to do so.

Well you will be completely controlled, is that what you think. But if we are to bring technological progress into the argument. Perhaps you can see how it will render obsolete many of the services provided by the corporations that push to limit rights. No more walmart with replicators in every home. No more coal and oil barons, with cheap and clean local community grids and home generation.

Perhaps, this is the last of the dragons fire, as it releases it's last breath.

Is it that special point in every thread where we start talking about the Zeitgeist Movement?

  On 3/14/2011 at 12:36 AM, delet... said:

  On 3/14/2011 at 12:31 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

given the exponential rise in technology and what can be achieved with using such technology, there is far less time to do so.

 

 

Well you will be completely controlled, is that what you think. But if we are to bring technological progress into the argument. Perhaps you can see how it will render obsolete many of the services provided by the corporations that push to limit rights. No more walmart with replicators in every home. No more coal and oil barons, with cheap and clean local community grids and home generation.

 

Perhaps, this is the last of the dragons fire, as it releases it's last breath.

sure, assuming these are the technologies being invested in in terms of time, manpower, and materials.

  On 3/14/2011 at 12:41 AM, inteeliguntdesign said:

Is it that special point in every thread where we start talking about the Zeitgeist Movement?

not really. im not sure how effective that will be.

  On 3/14/2011 at 12:36 AM, delet... said:

No more coal and oil barons, with cheap and clean local community grids and home generation.

generated how?

also lol zeitgeist, here we go

he was talking about technological progress, you are not going to argue against a life without oil being possible now are you. Seriously.

  On 3/13/2011 at 10:59 PM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

i think its because we have reached such an astounding climate of anti-intellectualism that anything involving critical thinking outside of business models is worthless....and the sad thing is, i can sorta see where that hostility is coming from

 

 

since im hoping to go on to higher education ive been keeping an eye on the US job market for humanities PhD's...and they are rapidly shrinking to the point where one university opening will see over 200 applicants.

 

all people care about now is science, math, and business. anything else is a waste of time through their eyes.

Maybe try expanding your job search to outside of the US? From the sounds of things, and what I read in the news every day, the US sounds less and less like a place I'd care to live.

  On 3/13/2011 at 11:27 PM, theSun said:

  On 3/13/2011 at 10:33 PM, chenGOD said:

I love the people that want to cut down on teacher's salaries, then in the next breath turn around and complain that the education system sucks. I can just see their reasoning: "Yes, these people are going to be spending the better part of the day with little johnny or little susan from the time they are 6 until they are 18. Let's pay them peanuts and then threaten to sue them if they try to discipline johnny/susan and/or teach them to question their parents."

 

this brings up an important problem that i see in the us, and that is parents expecting the teachers to be 100% of education. there's no discipline at home, how can the kids expect to behave and succeed in class?

I absolutely agree. Too many parents don't understand the responsibilities of raising a child. They still think they can have everything they want without sacrificing any of their own activities to actually spend time with their children.

  On 3/14/2011 at 12:36 AM, delet... said:

  On 3/14/2011 at 12:31 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

given the exponential rise in technology and what can be achieved with using such technology, there is far less time to do so.

 

 

Well you will be completely controlled, is that what you think. But if we are to bring technological progress into the argument. Perhaps you can see how it will render obsolete many of the services provided by the corporations that push to limit rights. No more walmart with replicators in every home. No more coal and oil barons, with cheap and clean local community grids and home generation.

 

Perhaps, this is the last of the dragons fire, as it releases it's last breath.

The problem with relying on technology is that we don't know what the return to the investment will be (and I do not mean in terms of profit), nor do we fully understand all the risks involved with implementing new technologies. Cheap and clean local community grids powered by what? Solar and wind are not efficient enough to provide for current energy needs.

Home generation is redundant though, as the model would require that both my home and my workplace have enough generating capacity to power full operations, whereas a centralized (or otherwise distributed) system only requires that the system as a whole have that capacity and flexibility.

trust me, if Canada offered me a job, id be out of here....but apparently other countries cant possibly hope to include people under my study...

since my field is going to focus on the American Revolution, Id think I might (emphasis on might) be marketable there as Im studying the border confrontations a great deal....but how many other countries really give a shit about the Amer. Rev?...i could try connecting it to an imperialism/Atlantic World type bent, but thats not really my goal.

ive been told to not even bother trying to find a job outside of the US unless im very well published, or if I specifically study something outside of the US (and on top of that you would be competing with students of equal talent within their native country)