SFPD shoot and kill unarmed 19 yr old

who's to say you wouldn't adopt the same mentality growing up like this young man did? we're only the product of our environment... if what you're implying is true, he was a victim from birth.

maybe he didnt now she was 13

  On 7/20/2011 at 3:34 AM, impotentwhitecapitalist said:

who's to say you wouldn't adopt the same mentality growing up like this young man did? we're only the product of our environment... if what you're implying is true, he was a victim from birth.

we're a product of many things, there are no "onlys"

  On 7/20/2011 at 3:56 AM, eugene said:

  On 7/20/2011 at 3:34 AM, impotentwhitecapitalist said:

who's to say you wouldn't adopt the same mentality growing up like this young man did? we're only the product of our environment... if what you're implying is true, he was a victim from birth.

we're a product of many things, there are no "onlys"

i considered this man, but didn't think anyone would get specific about it. i use the term 'environment' very loosely, thus covering these "many things"... shit this is getting too abstract.

if only my mother had been impregnated with someone else's semen, I might not like Minecraft so much. I hate you, dadsemen.

if you want to find videos of police/sherrifs/feds behaving badly and beyond the law you can find plenty of them. There isn't enough context in this video to decide whats going on (at least not yet for me).

here is a video of a sherrif's deputy throwing man in a wheelchair on the ground for refusing to get up out of the chair when she asked him (the story goes, she didn't believe he was really paralyzed), he suffered multiple broken ribs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX2nCT-cOU8

another sheriff here kicks and throws a young girl to the ground face down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipb_PeXOdT4&feature=relmfu

this man was left in a coma after a police officer was responding to a tip, they identified him as a suspect and then after the fact realized it was the wrong person

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9llvTQn8v-c&feature=relmfu

  On 7/20/2011 at 3:17 AM, jules said:

  On 7/20/2011 at 3:08 AM, Braintree said:

I know thugs aren't the smartest people, but I find it incredible, and mostly questionable, that someone would run away, fire their weapon, then keep running. Why not just dead sprint and keep running? And he has to know he's outnumbered in the first place.

 

If he shot at the police then they are obligated to fire back, but it just seems unbelievable.

 

because he is ignorant and arrogant as fuck? i mean if dude was pimping out a 13 year old, he has issues. sounds like he wanted the thug life. and got it.

  On 7/20/2011 at 7:03 AM, Sprigg said:

  On 7/20/2011 at 3:17 AM, jules said:

  On 7/20/2011 at 3:08 AM, Braintree said:

I know thugs aren't the smartest people, but I find it incredible, and mostly questionable, that someone would run away, fire their weapon, then keep running. Why not just dead sprint and keep running? And he has to know he's outnumbered in the first place.

 

If he shot at the police then they are obligated to fire back, but it just seems unbelievable.

 

because he is ignorant and arrogant as fuck? i mean if dude was pimping out a 13 year old, he has issues. sounds like he wanted the thug life. and got it.

yea well, he was victim to the setting from which he was born... you're neglecting 'the big picture' by leaving it at just that.

FUCK that apologist white guilt shit. maybe he can blame his environment for a few petty crimes as a wayward youth, but pimping a 13yr old? what the fuck is wrong with you? nobody has to be taught that that is wrong.

also, people that make excuses for thugs like him are really just exposing some roundabout racism of their own. "that poor nigger from the hood just didn't know any better..."

so...has he respawned yet?

I declare lumpenprol the winner of this thread!!!

Also - my original post still stands: regardless of whether or not this guy deserved to get shot, more incidents like this will set it as an "us against them" kind of thing - and I don't mean race necessarily, I mean "the pigs vs the people" kind of mentality.

Trying to pin this guy's life choices on his social environment is pretty ludicrous: unless you're implying that black, poor people believe it's ok to pimp out 13 year old girls?

Live by the sword.

  On 7/20/2011 at 8:30 PM, rumbo said:

Live by the sword.

using a biblical verse to justify violence, that's a new one

A bit cranky today, are you?

just a bit irritable, i guess you could say i'm like super effected by my environment right now

local environment or just society in general?

wanna know what for to do to get really revenge on the police? dont commit any crimes in 1 year.... cuz in the wire prope joe says what kills most police every year then guns?? getting bored!!

  On 7/20/2011 at 9:23 PM, rumbo said:

local environment or just society in general?

local shit inevitably hyped by society in general

  On 7/20/2011 at 9:46 AM, Al Hounos said:

FUCK that apologist white guilt shit. maybe he can blame his environment for a few petty crimes as a wayward youth, but pimping a 13yr old? what the fuck is wrong with you? nobody has to be taught that that is wrong.

 

also, people that make excuses for thugs like him are really just exposing some roundabout racism of their own. "that poor nigger from the hood just didn't know any better..."

It's hard to believe at times, but the brain is incredibly plastic and malleable. You can become conditioned to condone or even carry out such aberrated offences by the environment you're embedded in. There is the so-called "common sense, lay person" belief that we all hold an inherent moral value system, and surely EVERYONE should know that this is wrong, or that is wrong, or you shouldn't do this or that. Unfortunately, human behaviour is not as simple as this. One cannot basically generalise human behaviour. Majority of academics in the social sciences would support this view - and it is not even controversial anymore... Stop looking to "inherent morals" because:

1. All moral values are SUBJECTIVE and not actually objective in any sense

2. Morals are LEARNED values - they are not inherited genetically

People get shot and killed all the cot damn time. Whether it's cops shooting civilians, cops shooting cons, civilians shooting cops, cons shooting cops, civilians shooting cons, or civilians shooting cops...I don't give a good god damn unless it's my friends or family. Don't get me wrong...I'm not condoning shooting or saying I wish anyone gets shot, but for fuck's sake we've got BILLIONS of people in this world and we're all gonna die anyway.

  On 7/20/2011 at 9:53 PM, Bread said:

  On 7/20/2011 at 9:46 AM, Al Hounos said:

FUCK that apologist white guilt shit. maybe he can blame his environment for a few petty crimes as a wayward youth, but pimping a 13yr old? what the fuck is wrong with you? nobody has to be taught that that is wrong.

 

also, people that make excuses for thugs like him are really just exposing some roundabout racism of their own. "that poor nigger from the hood just didn't know any better..."

It's hard to believe at times, but the brain is incredibly plastic and malleable. You can become conditioned to condone or even carry out such aberrated offences by the environment you're embedded in. There is the so-called "common sense, lay person" belief that we all hold an inherent moral value system, and surely EVERYONE should know that this is wrong, or that is wrong, or you shouldn't do this or that. Unfortunately, human behaviour is not as simple as this. One cannot basically generalise human behaviour. Majority of academics in the social sciences would support this view - and it is not even controversial anymore... Stop looking to "inherent morals" because:

 

1. All moral values are SUBJECTIVE and not actually objective in any sense

2. Morals are LEARNED values - they are not inherited genetically

Are you implying then that the black community from where this kid is from taught him that pimping out 13 year old girls is the correct way to live one's life?

All morals are subjective but most people agree that moral relativism has its limits (genocide is generally frowned upon, for example). Social scientists do agree that one cannot generalise, but at the same time they also tend to agree that individuals have some form of agency.

  On 7/20/2011 at 11:20 PM, chenGOD said:

  On 7/20/2011 at 9:53 PM, Bread said:

  On 7/20/2011 at 9:46 AM, Al Hounos said:

FUCK that apologist white guilt shit. maybe he can blame his environment for a few petty crimes as a wayward youth, but pimping a 13yr old? what the fuck is wrong with you? nobody has to be taught that that is wrong.

 

also, people that make excuses for thugs like him are really just exposing some roundabout racism of their own. "that poor nigger from the hood just didn't know any better..."

It's hard to believe at times, but the brain is incredibly plastic and malleable. You can become conditioned to condone or even carry out such aberrated offences by the environment you're embedded in. There is the so-called "common sense, lay person" belief that we all hold an inherent moral value system, and surely EVERYONE should know that this is wrong, or that is wrong, or you shouldn't do this or that. Unfortunately, human behaviour is not as simple as this. One cannot basically generalise human behaviour. Majority of academics in the social sciences would support this view - and it is not even controversial anymore... Stop looking to "inherent morals" because:

 

1. All moral values are SUBJECTIVE and not actually objective in any sense

2. Morals are LEARNED values - they are not inherited genetically

 

Are you implying then that the black community from where this kid is from taught him that pimping out 13 year old girls is the correct way to live one's life?

 

All morals are subjective but most people agree that moral relativism has its limits (genocide is generally frowned upon, for example). Social scientists do agree that one cannot generalise, but at the same time they also tend to agree that individuals have some form of agency.

Regarding your first statement - do you not think he has learned that there is an economic advantage to doing such an aberrated act? Therefore, this learned behaviour delivers a monetary "benefit" - it's an education and economic problem. We can speculate that if he might have came from a background full of abundance and "wealth", would he need to "pimp out" individuals of that age? I'm not defending this person's actions at all - I'm merely delivering a view point which focuses on how one learns a behaviour. There could be [i'm speculating] very complex insecurities and an inability to empathise with others in this person's character - again, such a mentality can be conditioned by the environment.

Regarding your second statement - "individuals have some form of agency" - what do you mean by this? Knowledge on how to act and integrate in society is learned over time. Recent developments in neuroscience theorise on the notion of mirror neurons, and that we are soft-wired with such a neuronal network which enables a propensity for empathic actions to be influenced - however this needs to be nurtured. Although one may think that because we are social organisms, who thrive/flourish cognitively via social connections, if such social behaviour is not nurtured throughout childhood then a sociopath can be produced from an environmental standpoint thus chucking out a "natural form of morality argument" in the human brain.

And by saying such things as "such a mentality can be conditioned by the environment" you are implicitly implying that poor (and in Bayview predominantly black) people are teaching their young that the pimping out of 13 year old girls is acceptable. I'm saying that this is one of those moral lines which is generally considered not acceptable. (13 being too young).

Agency means the capacity for an actor to make choices and impose those choices on the world. Sociologists (and other social scientists) largely agree that individual actors have this capacity.

The whole situation is just so horribly racist...

I mean the guy was pimping 13 yr. olds and died in a hail of police gunfire! How badass is that? If he was Al Pacino you'd be making a movie about him. Let's not let the fact that he was black obscure his accomplishments.

  Quote

And by saying such things as "such a mentality can be conditioned by the environment" you are implicitly implying that poor (and in Bayview predominantly black) people are teaching their young that the pimping out of 13 year old girls is acceptable. I'm saying that this is one of those moral lines which is generally considered not acceptable. (13 being too young).

But there is a reason(s) as to why this individual had taken this choice... and choices we make are influenced by many, many societal factors

  Quote

Agency means the capacity for an actor to make choices and impose those choices on the world. Sociologists (and other social scientists) largely agree that individual actors have this capacity.

Yes... a capacity to make choices based on education/existing knowledge