Tottenham riots

  On 8/10/2011 at 7:51 PM, chenGOD said:

The protests in june by the public sector workers - those were politically motivated, and look ma - no looting.

http://www.thisislon...ctor-walkout.do

 

Eugene - there is no such thing as the free market - every nation's government interferes in its economic and fiscal policies to some degree, and in some sectors more than others. Look at US farm policy for an example of straight up socialism leading to oligarchies. Additionally, your country's economy would be in the shitter without US subsidies and favored nation status.

Don't conflate economic policy with social policy.

Although i do agree that anarcho-socialists should be forced to live in Somalia. Same goes for libertarians.

i don't understand why are you trying to evade..the west's ideal type was freer market, communist bloc preferred more interference and regulations. compare eastern europe and western europe today, what is wrong with that argument ?

my country was a player in the cold war just like any other..

  On 8/10/2011 at 7:32 PM, BCM said:

on the jobs thing - loads of them had jobs: front page of the evening standard featured a story of one of the looters in court today - a 31 year old primary school teaching assistant. another in court today was a lifeguard.

Now you're disproving all your previous posts about it being solely (black) schoolkids.

Eugene -

Did you read what i wrote? South Korea's growth (and Taiwan's and now China's) was based on the developmental state. This is a model where the state has a high level of intervention in growing companies and the nation's GDP. South Korea and Taiwan are now both democracies, and yet there is still a high level of government intervention in their political economy. In fact, in the case of South korea, the conservative government in power now has increased state control compared to the previous government (more socialist leaning).

When the US and England underwent their growth periods, they did so by using economies that in no way, shape or form represented a "free market".

I'm not trying to evade anything - your ideas on political economy and the history of industrialization are simply a fairy-tale.

i know many unemployed university graduates

that article Ian C posted is the best coverage of the rioting so far, too bad the mainstream media turned it into a racial thing out of the gates

  On 8/10/2011 at 8:42 PM, chenGOD said:

Eugene -

Did you read what i wrote? South Korea's growth (and Taiwan's and now China's) was based on the developmental state. This is a model where the state has a high level of intervention in growing companies and the nation's GDP. South Korea and Taiwan are now both democracies, and yet there is still a high level of government intervention in their political economy. In fact, in the case of South korea, the conservative government in power now has increased state control compared to the previous government (more socialist leaning).

When the US and England underwent their growth periods, they did so by using economies that in no way, shape or form represented a "free market".

I'm not trying to evade anything - your ideas on political economy and the history of industrialization are simply a fairy-tale.

i don't have any ideas on economy at all, this area is major black hole for me, lol. i just got dragged into a territory i shouldn't have. you couldn't probably infer that i kinda easily juggle free market and capitalism in general...

i'm simply still stuck at your argument that "dogmatic free market is no better than communism"..which still sounds absurd.

lets try to rephrase it, do you think that economic systems that were having more in common with communism than democracies and capitalism and all that jazz are just as bad ?

eugene - simple answer - yes, the economic systems used in the USSR were not good - they were susceptible to corruption, and there was little incentive to develop new production methods/products as there was no need to compete.

Long answer - lol, well um...i think we've gone off-topic enough here, and also the long answer would take more than a post here.

Who is coming to Dalston on Saturday to get some pide, or lahmacun, or whatever it is you meaty boys like to eat?

  On 8/10/2011 at 7:32 PM, BCM said:

on the jobs thing - loads of them had jobs: front page of the evening standard featured a story of one of the looters in court today - a 31 year old primary school teaching assistant. another in court today was a lifeguard.

yeah. The guardian liveblog has been giving details of some of the people appearing in court today:

  Quote

An 18-year-old college student from Lambeth was one of the first alleged troublemakers to appear, accused of attacking a police car with his bike

...

a 22-year-old leisure centre worker from west Kilburn, was accused of violent disorder and stealing a quantity of Seiko watches from H Samuel on Ealing Broadway during the disturbances on Monday.

...

a teaching assistant who works at a primary school in Stockwell, south London, appeared at Highbury magistrates' court charged with burglary with intent to steal

...

A 23-year-old scaffolder broke down into tears in court this morning after admitting taking part in the looting in Hackney.

...

They also mention a few unemployed people and a few kids.

Though bear in mind over a hundred people have been up in court today in London, so maybe most of them didn't have jobs but the media are only reporting the intesting ones? Hard to tell.

Interesting piece by some young writers for Live magazine, a mag written by 16-22 year olds based in Brixton

  Quote

The youth aren’t thinking about all of this. To be honest, this is the cause of the whole situation. Nobody is thinking. But we’re not trained to use our minds in this society, we’re trained to use our ego. And that is the root cause of all the problems.

Anyone into looting Richies vault, btw? It might be our last chance to hear new material.

Jus' sayan.

  On 8/10/2011 at 9:08 PM, eugene said:

  On 8/10/2011 at 8:42 PM, chenGOD said:

Eugene -

Did you read what i wrote? South Korea's growth (and Taiwan's and now China's) was based on the developmental state. This is a model where the state has a high level of intervention in growing companies and the nation's GDP. South Korea and Taiwan are now both democracies, and yet there is still a high level of government intervention in their political economy. In fact, in the case of South korea, the conservative government in power now has increased state control compared to the previous government (more socialist leaning).

When the US and England underwent their growth periods, they did so by using economies that in no way, shape or form represented a "free market".

I'm not trying to evade anything - your ideas on political economy and the history of industrialization are simply a fairy-tale.

i don't have any ideas on economy at all, this area is major black hole for me, lol. i just got dragged into a territory i shouldn't have. you couldn't probably infer that i kinda easily juggle free market and capitalism in general...

 

i'm simply still stuck at your argument that "dogmatic free market is no better than communism"..which still sounds absurd.

lets try to rephrase it, do you think that economic systems that were having more in common with communism than democracies and capitalism and all that jazz are just as bad ?

it is just as bad. its dogmatic. that's very different from witnessing the historical effects in reality.

Pre-Leninist Marxists and even post-Lenin Marxists would have told you that the USSR was no more communist than Caesar's Rome was democratic.

by turning it into a "which one has done better", you are essentially demanding an answer that cannot, at least historically, be forthcoming. we could be witnessing capitalism's slow decay, which may or may not be contrasted with the Soviet bloc's immediate collapse in less than a century.

it would be like saying the Roman Empire was "better" than other empires simply because it lasted longer.

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

  On 8/10/2011 at 10:19 PM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

  On 8/10/2011 at 9:08 PM, eugene said:

  On 8/10/2011 at 8:42 PM, chenGOD said:

Eugene -

Did you read what i wrote? South Korea's growth (and Taiwan's and now China's) was based on the developmental state. This is a model where the state has a high level of intervention in growing companies and the nation's GDP. South Korea and Taiwan are now both democracies, and yet there is still a high level of government intervention in their political economy. In fact, in the case of South korea, the conservative government in power now has increased state control compared to the previous government (more socialist leaning).

When the US and England underwent their growth periods, they did so by using economies that in no way, shape or form represented a "free market".

I'm not trying to evade anything - your ideas on political economy and the history of industrialization are simply a fairy-tale.

i don't have any ideas on economy at all, this area is major black hole for me, lol. i just got dragged into a territory i shouldn't have. you couldn't probably infer that i kinda easily juggle free market and capitalism in general...

 

i'm simply still stuck at your argument that "dogmatic free market is no better than communism"..which still sounds absurd.

lets try to rephrase it, do you think that economic systems that were having more in common with communism than democracies and capitalism and all that jazz are just as bad ?

 

it is just as bad. its dogmatic. that's very different from witnessing the historical effects in reality.

 

Pre-Leninist Marxists and even post-Lenin Marxists would have told you that the USSR was no more communist than Caesar's Rome was democratic.

 

 

by turning it into a "which one has done better", you are essentially demanding an answer that cannot, at least historically, be forthcoming. we could be witnessing capitalism's slow decay, which may or may not be contrasted with the Soviet bloc's immediate collapse in less than a century.

 

it would be like saying the Roman Empire was "better" than other empires simply because it lasted longer.

very well put, complaining about capitalism as it exists in the UK or America is often countered with 'would your rather have communism' which just illustrates the absurd levels of polarization and lack of subtlety in decent discussions these days.

a pitifully transparent attempt to polarize the debate even more - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

*sees dailymail*

*decides against clicking*

see i'm trying to hold onto what shreds of sanity i still have.

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

WILL LESBIANS STEAL THE IDENTITY OF YOUR PENSION?

well if you want the headline here it is

  Quote

Years of liberal dogma have spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent, brutalised youngsters

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html#ixzz1UfSKYWxs

[/left]

i didn't realize how Fox newsy UK newspapers could be, Drudge has been pimping this headline as their main story about the riots all day

  On 8/10/2011 at 11:40 PM, Adam Beker said:

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

FLOL

i actually did click it i was trying to be dramatic.

didn't read it though.

the daily mail is a joke.

dollars to donuts those are futuregirlfriend's submissions ^^

Constant comments on those right wing shit rags from Americans about "The right to bear arms" and offering shock at such circumstances observed taking place over the pond. Usually followed by "If that happened here...blah blah.".

Death Toll: LA Riots 1992 - 51

Death Toll: London Riots 2011 - 4 (last count)

  On 8/11/2011 at 12:41 AM, rumbo said:

Constant comments on those right wing shit rags from Americans about "The right to bear arms" and offering shock at such circumstances observed taking place over the pond. Usually followed by "If that happened here...blah blah.".

 

Death Toll: LA Riots 1992 - 51

Death Toll: London Riots 2011 - 4 (last count)

bad example.

im no pro-gun fanatic, but the LA riots were gigantic, and based off of racial strains moreso than looting, and sticking it to the man like those Londoners did when they stole a Prada bag.

i could go on, but check out the actual details of the riots and youll know what i mean.

still, id be hard pressed to say that guns are what made the L.A. riots as deadly as they were. This seems to come as a shock to most people in the world, but you don't need a gun to kill somebody.

  On 8/11/2011 at 12:41 AM, rumbo said:

Constant comments on those right wing shit rags from Americans about "The right to bear arms" and offering shock at such circumstances observed taking place over the pond. Usually followed by "If that happened here...blah blah.".

 

Death Toll: LA Riots 1992 - 51

Death Toll: London Riots 2011 - 4 (last count)

4.

brits are fucking posers, that's why.

  Quote

I really want to say that it seems so weird to me that we have built a consumerist society predicated on the values of materialism and then simultaneously act shocked that the first act of rebellion is the looting of high-street stores. The rioters seem on the whole unable to find a framework in which to air their grievances—although this is clearly a lack of education and vocabulary, considering many at least have a clear class conciousness and say it is a reaction against the police and rich. But across the political spectrum people seem to agree that the riots are acts of desire, justified or not. The reactionaries would call it greed.

 

Surely it is telling that after Thatcherism has decimated the working class and declared that there is “no such thing as society”; after the mass media has bombarded us with advertising, instant gratification and escapism; after corporatism has replaced ideology with product branding; the rioters we have produced are uninterested in their communities, selfish, egotistic and consumerists. In other words, capitalists.

  Quote

The UK looting and destruction, in other words, is not idiopathic and without explanation, but sociopathic in behavior that imitates the primary institution of society and government protectionism—the capitalism of corporate and private wealth secured through socialized government protected capitalism.

no "all of the above?"