Tottenham riots

  On 8/11/2011 at 2:44 PM, eugene said:

 

maybe a concrete example will help,

the collectivization in the countryside in china prior to the "great leap forward", where you can see easily that it goes bad and ineffective the more people lose the sense of property and direct reward for labor involved. and then you can see the trend reversed in the restoration period after the great leap, when people are allowed more freedom and control over their produce, when the collective units are smaller and in addition a re-formation of markets - the economic situation improves rapidly. i think you can see something similar with lenin's nep.

 

now i don't know if its academically correct to associate collectivization and the lack of private property and private enterprise to communism as we've seen it and the reverse of those to the systems that defined the western bloc but i doubt im far off, i'm totally ok with being proven wrong though ! its just that so far you've been nitpicking, missing the larger picture.

No, you're totally, right. China should have colonized other countries, exploited the population as slave labour and extracted their resources for the gain of China.

Ok, sarcasm aside - the point that I'm trying to make with the South Korean/Taiwanese example is that government interference in the market is not necessarily bad. Additionally, the US government interferes plenty with production and allocation of resources - one example I gave was of agricultural policy. There are of course plenty of others.

The problem with China/USSR is that they attempted to practice what is known as Import Substitution Industrialization, which basically means you try to become a self-sufficient nation. This leads to short-term gain, but then long-term failure as markets become saturated, companies become uncompetitive and corruption becomes more and more obscene. The means of production (collective farms/factories), and the sharing of revenue is not the issue (as proved by the case in Korea/Taiwan - where the government directed revenue streams appropriately). In China's case, there was a wildly inefficient allocation of resources and capital (when Mao sent the city workers to the farms, and then they used scrap metal to make iron of shitty quality) which led to their collapse. The Soviet Union was full of corruption in terms of reporting (kind of like the credit rating agencies in the mortgage crisis).

Finally, the idea that you have in your head about being "free" to conduct "private" enterprise is a gross misinterpretation of what actually goes on in capitalism.

  On 8/11/2011 at 11:11 PM, xxx said:

I am thankful for the WATMM enlightenment on the concept of chavs/neds/Geordie accent/etc. When they play sound clips over here with looters, I'm immediately reminded of Devvo. I found myself saying "chav as fuck" after one interview on NPR. I don't condone this behavior and I find it reprehensible in most cases but I have a general appreciation of balls in life. We have plenty of chav analogues here in the US but you would never see this here. Both the poor and former middle class have resigned themselves to the bondage of money-based fear and anxiety, which plays directly into the hands of those that caused all of this in the first place--not to mention the Napoleonic response our police and military would have on us. Most days I have fantasies of protest and revolution but, like everyone else, I'm too busy working my ass off, watching spending, chewing nails, etc. to do anything about it.

wouldn't that be more down to coppers using guns and stuff + armed vigilantes. i mean there's plenty of disorder in America but if it was it was this blatant there would be dead bodybuilder punk bikers everywhere.

  On 8/11/2011 at 5:24 PM, keltoi said:

 

fat bitch looting crisps and juice! seriously lock her up and give her a nice criminal record

HAH !! She should have looted some shopping bags whilst she was at it. Could have carried more stuff more comfortably.

what a complete fucking numpty

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692996/London-riots-David-Cameron-approves-water-cannon.html

Shit about to get very real.

it's all over now - rioting's gone way too mainstream...not cool any more.

  On 8/12/2011 at 10:29 AM, BCM said:

it's all over now - rioting's gone way too mainstream...not cool any more.

Shit has it hit pitchfork?

  On 8/12/2011 at 9:57 AM, chenGOD said:

http://www.telegraph...ter-cannon.html

 

Shit about to get very real.

"watercannon... available at 24 hours notice".

what the hell use is that?

  On 8/12/2011 at 11:14 AM, keltoi said:

  On 8/12/2011 at 9:57 AM, chenGOD said:

http://www.telegraph...ter-cannon.html

 

Shit about to get very real.

 

"watercannon... available at 24 hours notice".

 

what the hell use is that?

I see your point, but I must refer you to the three days of rioting that just took place. I don't know why it would take 24hrs but I'd imagine it's a concession to those who don't want them used and think they will be used recklessly.

watercanons sounds like a lot of fun with water gun childhood nostalgia

  On 8/12/2011 at 11:22 AM, Coalbucket PI said:

  On 8/12/2011 at 11:14 AM, keltoi said:

  On 8/12/2011 at 9:57 AM, chenGOD said:

http://www.telegraph...ter-cannon.html

 

Shit about to get very real.

 

"watercannon... available at 24 hours notice".

 

what the hell use is that?

I see your point, but I must refer you to the three days of rioting that just took place. I don't know why it would take 24hrs but I'd imagine it's a concession to those who don't want them used and think they will be used recklessly.

i suppose it makes sense they bring it out for prolonged rioting, rather than right away. hopefully there isn't a few days of calm before it starts up again.

Yeah it seems to have calmed down quite a bit now. I was all for rubber bullets and super soakers from the start. But there's probably a hose pipe ban on so it was a last resort decision if they were to use them.

Now it's, mostly, coming to an end I hope they catch every fucker involved. I hope there are plenty of first time offenders shitting themselves over whether they will get caught. Maybe it'll keep them away from future naughtiness.

Oh, and find the fat bird, force feed her all the crisps and chuck her in the Thames.

it's rediculous you have a hose pipe ban, it's been pissing down here for a week straight. parts of edinburgh were flooded last night which never happens.

I don't actually think we've got one at the moment. I was being humerous (also new spelling for hummus) since we've had them in previous years in torrential downpours that last days.

how can it be summer without a hosepipe ban? watering the lawn isn't any fun when you're allowed to do it

oh yeah. anyone who has ever torrented a bunch of films or SLSK'd some records can STFU about looting

  On 8/12/2011 at 1:57 PM, LUDD said:

oh yeah. anyone who has ever torrented a bunch of films or SLSK'd some records can STFU about looting

I only torrent foreign films and records and buy British. In fact you have a patriotic duty to do so. I just downloaded the 3 colours trilogy and then deleted it without watching it. I will be watching my shop bought and very worn vhs copy of Spice Girls:The Movie tonight.

if i could torrent crisps and juice i think i would.

  On 8/11/2011 at 10:28 PM, chenGOD said:

Ok, sarcasm aside - the point that I'm trying to make with the South Korean/Taiwanese example is that government interference in the market is not necessarily bad. Additionally, the US government interferes plenty with production and allocation of resources - one example I gave was of agricultural policy. There are of course plenty of others.

The problem with China/USSR is that they attempted to practice what is known as Import Substitution Industrialization, which basically means you try to become a self-sufficient nation. This leads to short-term gain, but then long-term failure as markets become saturated, companies become uncompetitive and corruption becomes more and more obscene. The means of production (collective farms/factories), and the sharing of revenue is not the issue (as proved by the case in Korea/Taiwan - where the government directed revenue streams appropriately). In China's case, there was a wildly inefficient allocation of resources and capital (when Mao sent the city workers to the farms, and then they used scrap metal to make iron of shitty quality) which led to their collapse. The Soviet Union was full of corruption in terms of reporting (kind of like the credit rating agencies in the mortgage crisis).

 

Finally, the idea that you have in your head about being "free" to conduct "private" enterprise is a gross misinterpretation of what actually goes on in capitalism.

you're going bread on me, you don't address the most important points.

i simply don't believe that you'd brush off collectivization that easily in any other argument, it is a big deal. im not a human nature expert but it does seem more than reasonable that people would invest more in their own than in somebody else's, state's for example, and this was an essential element of communism as we witnessed it.

i specifically chose events prior to the great leap forward where you can see gradual collectivization and an attempt to equalize people was followed by a loss of motivation and a lack of correlation between labor involved and reward. starvation began even before the official start of the great leap forward, it was just that mao thought that even further collectivization and heavy propaganda would fix things. of course you can argue that this is management's fault and a better leader would make it work as essentially communes are much easier to control. i simply believe that this system is just very susceptible to error, there are just too many ifs and too many ways for it to go wrong.

you can go on deconstructing what i call capitalism of the west ad infinitum, the point is a degree of financial freedom and its effects (and its effects are clearly seen in the restoration period after the great leap) not the difference between reality and rhetoric.

Israel would never loot other peoples property.

i smell something BURNing

  On 8/12/2011 at 3:41 PM, LUDD said:

Israel would never loot other peoples property.