Uploading consciousness into a computer

  On 3/27/2012 at 5:32 AM, Joseph said:

  On 3/27/2012 at 5:24 AM, StephenG said:

Right, superposition refers to particles in whatever form existing simultaneously in every place within a 3 dimensional range. Therefore it is everywhere and collapses into a singularity when accessed at a certain point, thereby making it instantaneous.

 

If it collapsed into a singularity, we'd all be dead. It just assumes a definite state when measured. In any event I don't see the pertinence to mind-uploading, at least at this stage. (It is conceivable that quantum indeterminism arises from the indeterminism of conscious continuations, but that's another matter).

 

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RE the second comment, relativity does not apply when you get into quarks, etc. Gravity has absolutely no bearing on the behaviour of these particles. Also, this is the aim of a "grand unified theory of physics". String theory is quite relevant here.

 

Just because modern physics has not worked out how it works, does not mean gravity is not relevant. It demonstrably is. Indeed many cutting-edge efforts try to show how gravity arises from the interaction of (fundamental?) particles.

 

Certainly general relativity will have to be replaced by a theory of quantum gravity. Note that gravity continues to operate regardless.

Well, no. Not at all. A single particle collapsing into a singularity refers to light and all data transmitted by light to exist as a beam instead of a wave, when it is observed. It is proven to exist in multiple forms depending on the observers perspective.

http://en.wikipedia....nal_singularity

edit: gravitational singularity is inextricably linked to the event horizon because it is the origin of reality relative to the light cone/swath

http://en.wikipedia....i/Event_horizon

And modern physics has worked out that gravity is not relative at certain scales, hence the desire to find a grand unified theory of physics to begin with.

For example the electron cloud theory aka atomic orbital theory proves quantum superposition. If quantum superposition exists, relativity does not apply because superposition cannot exist with relativity by definition...

  On 3/27/2012 at 5:36 AM, StephenG said:

Well, no. Not at all. A single particle collapsing into a singularity refers to light and all data transmitted by light to exist as a beam instead of a wave, when it is observed. It is proven to exist in multiple forms depending on the observers perspective.

 

http://en.wikipedia....nal_singularity

Yes, your link refers to a gravitational singularity. This is irrelevant to quantum superposition, or wavefunction collapse, etc. I think you are conflating "black holes" with "quantum particles", or something. Actually I am not sure what the confusion is.

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And modern physics has worked out that gravity is not relative at certain scales, hence the desire to find a grand unified theory of physics to begin with.

On the contrary, the belief that gravity (in some unknown form) is relevant at scales down to the Planck scale has motivated the search for a theory of quantum gravity.

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For example the electron cloud theory aka atomic orbital theory proves quantum superposition.

 

No, but atomic orbitals are an example of superposition, sure.

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If quantum superposition exists, relativity does not apply because superposition cannot exist with relativity by definition...

???

le-sigh*

We have strayed from the thread topic. However I stand by my educated statements, although I base it only on a short number of books and physics courses (maybe about 5 physics books and 5 university physics courses). So I'm not an expert on the topic.

RE your last statement, I think it's pretty clear how superposition and relativity cannot coexist in the same paradigm.

Superposition requires the existence of any defined anything in multiple places in space/time at once. Relativity imposes forces on particles that would prohibit such behaviour.

I recommend "the trouble with physics" for more info regarding this. http://www.amazon.co...32820402&sr=8-1

Actually wikipedia describes superposition quite well.... " It holds that a physical system -- such as an electron -- exists partly in all its particular, theoretically possible states (or, configuration of its properties) simultaneously; but, when measured, it gives a result corresponding to only one of the possible configurations"

IE it exists in multiple states, inherently in multiple locations, etc, simultaneously, and exists only in a collapsed/defined state when accessed/measured/observed.

Sorry, you're just wrong and this is indeed off topic. This confusion cannot be remedied in this setting.

Don't go mixing in quantum physics with consciousness, there is no basis to think that any of the quantum weirdness has anything to do with consciousness. It's just a fanciful idea at this point and there is no evidence to support it. Not saying that quantum theory could never have anything to do with consciousness, but at this point it's just too early to say. Fun to speculate, though.

Quantum physics is good material to mix in with pseudoscience, since it's so weird and no one really understands it.

I would upload myself if I could maintain the first person perspective in digital form, of course.

Would upload myself only at the end stage of my life here in this universe. On second hand, I would first read-up on people already uploaded there, have they gone mad if they have "lived" far longer than they biological life. Also, would you know that you are in a VR world? I guess the ability to create things as you wish might give it away, unless you have been "programmed" to think that it's always been possible.

  On 3/27/2012 at 10:33 AM, Adam Beker said:

I would upload myself if I could maintain the first person perspective in digital form, of course.

That's a good point.

If I were close to death and the system was already tested and deemed scientifically safe I'd probably do it.

But yeah, I'd need to maintain some form of individuality. Joining a computerised hive-mind is nightmarish.

  On 3/27/2012 at 10:37 AM, azatoth said:

Would upload myself only at the end stage of my life here in this universe. On second hand, I would first read-up on people already uploaded there, have they gone mad if they have "lived" far longer than they biological life. Also, would you know that you are in a VR world? I guess the ability to create things as you wish might give it away, unless you have been "programmed" to think that it's always been possible.

You'd probably just get used to it after a while - like the internet or boc subfora.

STEPHENg

imagine being uploaded to a clean install of windows 95

forever

Wouldn't you rather upload yourself when you're fairly young so that your mind is at its most capable?

i was probably naive to think that the debate wouldn't go heavily towards identity/consciousness etc. Really, i was just interested in the principle of the original question to be honest.

I just remembered this thing i read a few months ago. I wont give my take on it.

It's called Killed by bad philosophy - Why brain preservation followed by mind uploading is a cure for death

http://www.brainpreservation.org/content/killed-bad-philosophy

  On 3/27/2012 at 11:09 AM, Gary C said:

  On 3/27/2012 at 10:33 AM, Adam Beker said:

I would upload myself if I could maintain the first person perspective in digital form, of course.

That's a good point.

 

If I were close to death and the system was already tested and deemed scientifically safe I'd probably do it.

 

But yeah, I'd need to maintain some form of individuality. Joining a computerised hive-mind is nightmarish.

you wouldn't even realize that you're in a hivemind. you would all share one consciousness. i always thought that was sorta funny. hiveminds are the ultimate form of togetherness and yet they result in being entirely alone.

I'd never do it. It feels too unnatural and would displease my god.

Wasn't this the plot to a really bad episode of X-Files ?

Edit: Yes Pete, yes it was - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Switch_(The_X-Files)

Thanks for the panic attack Brother Rambo.

We are already living in a simulation if that video in the youtube thread is to be believed, with error-correcting computer code popping up in equations about supersymmetry.

Convince me I'm not in one.

Yeah you have to realise that this is a very specific kind of question and i was really just trying to gauge what people thought (plus make Fred go ape and throw his child out a window?). That we are already in a simulation of some sort is a definite possibility for me.

  On 3/27/2012 at 8:02 PM, Fred McGriff said:

Convince me I'm not in one.

I am sorry, but you are in a coma in the year 2054. You've been in a coma for 12 years already. You're whole life has been a simulation with the purpose of re-wiring your brain so that you could wake up. Every one you've met ever has been one of only 8 people or a collaboration of a couple of people. This is your mother typing to you. I am sorry that we had to break the news to you in this way, but according to the doctors you are starting to reject the simulation...

woah lol where did this erection come from?