Anti-Islaam Film

Just deal with it mate, atheists will never truly enjoy life, i can sense your unhappiness from here.

It is LITERALLY physically/spiritually impossible for atheists to appreciate truth, beauty or the natural world on the same level as a person of faith. That is why they are so unhappy, and also why they're all white men.

I am made of stars. STARS BIATCH!

So what you're saying is - the problems are social, cultural and political? And if religion evaporate overnight, those problems would still be there? BULLSHIT. Everybody knows it's religion that's the problem, and if people didn't Muslim or Christian there would be no violence, hatred, exploitation or inequality. Shutup XXX. Shutup!

It's almost as if you're saying atheism isn't the single most important civil rights issue facing the western world today. And frankly as a white, able-bodied, heterosexual, middle-class, cis-gendered male I think you're crazy.

hipsters are worse than atheists.

The more things change:

Islamic Culture and Sharia Law are generally negatives on society. Saying that a belief in "nothing" is worse than a belief in "something" that oppresses creativity and society/people is odd. Here are some examples (below), would be nice to hear some people's thoughts on. The same criticisms could be said about Christianity, but Western Society has largely moved away from using Religious beliefs as law or structuralism. I'm not saying Muslims aren't right in criticizing the West for imperialism but that their culture has fundamental problems that stems from hundred years of tradition. The sooner culture moves towards a more agnostic approach, where beliefs can be held but no one belief is held so strongly, the better this world will be.

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~ The Ability to Question: Western culture is predicated on questioning: inquiring of authorities how they came to the conclusions they reached -- a concept from the ancient Greek word "historayn," to learn by asking. Although in the Shiite world questioning occurs among religious authorities and the educated elite, in the Sunni world, for centuries, asking questions of those more learned or in positions of authority has been unacceptable. Until Muslims once again allow themselves to ask questions and engage in critical examination, they are disabling themselves from accomplishing as much as they otherwise might.

 

~ The Role of the Individual vs. the Role of the Group: In much of the Muslim world, people are often seen not as individuals but as members of particular families, clans, tribes, ethnic groups, or religions. In the Muslim and Arab world, a problem between two people can become a problem between two families, with the individual becoming a "soldier" in the ensuing feud. What an individual might think personally – who is right and who is wrong – becomes irrelevant, fostering a mindset that obstructs the impersonal and dispassionate analytic thinking that defines the modern world.

 

~ Encouraging Creativity: A good way to define Western intellectual creativity in the Muslim world is to use the Arabic word ijtihad, roughly meaning using one's intellectual and reasoning capabilities to determine answers. Today's Islamic culture seems not to encourage this ability: among the Sunni Muslims, who comprise about 85% of the approximately 1.4 billion Muslims, the "Gates of Ijtihad" were closed about a thousand years ago, apparently for the political reasons: religious authorities declared that all questions had been addressed during the past four centuries, so there was therefore no more need for questioning. Since then, Muslims have been asked to accept institutionally what they learn from their authority figures – as in the word Islam, itself, meaning "submission." Islamic culture therefore does not only to encourage creativity as much as it might; it appears actively to discourage it: people are educated to memorize, not criticize.

 

Creativity requires, above all, questioning the accepted ways of doing things. What many Muslims do, therefore – and do very well – is produce things invented by others. The Turks, for example, who have had longer and closer contacts with the West than most other areas of the Muslim world have had, are superb at replicating what others have created. Although the F-16, for example, was created in the US, the only perfect one ever manufactured by the mid-1990's was assembled in an F-16 plant in Turkey. Individual Turks would have been perfectly capable of inventing an F-16, but often feel constrained to think creatively in their own country. This might be a reason that gifted individuals in the Muslim world who feel the need to expand their abilities often abandon their native countries for the West, and do brilliantly there.

 

~ The Ability to Admit Failure and Learn from It: Although no one particularly likes to fail, people in the West expect those who have failed to examine why they have failed, and to learn from their mistakes. Some high-tech firms even try to hire people who have failed at startups in the hope of gaining insights so their companies will not pursue avenues that did not succeed. It is hard to imagine a similar approach in any Muslim country, where it is virtually impossible for anyone publicly to admit failure. The concept of personal honor – (in Arabic, 'Ayib) what others say about you – is prevalent everywhere: admitting failure means shaming yourself, a situation to be avoided at all costs. In Western culture, this concept of shame is largely alien; we are more of a "guilt" culture, in that what we think about ourselves counts more than how others view us, and largely motivates our advancement.

 

http://www.gatestone...ng-muslim-world

Now of course this is not to say Western/Christian beliefs don't hold similarities with some of these, but if a Western society today banned women from University, there would be far more revolt than what we see in the Middle East (http://www.globalpos...-degree-courses).

Also:

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Until Muslim countries and Muslim communities in the West allow their people to express themselves freely -- without fear of reprisal -- it is unlikely that the Muslim world will be able to think creatively and again become a center of science and knowledge, as it used to be in the early centuries of Islam.

 

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The exercise of critical thinking and independent judgment – or Ijtihad --was an important way to address questions in the early centuries of Islam. After approximately 400 years, however, the leaders of the Sunni Muslim world closed the "Gates of Ijtihad;" Muslims were no longer allowed use itjihad to solve problems. If a seemingly new problem arose, they were supposed to find an analogy from earlier scholars and apply that ruling to the problem that arose. From the 10^th century onwards, Sunni Muslim leaders began to see questioning as politically dangerous to their ability to rule. Regrettably, Sunni Muslim leaders reject the use of itjihad to this day.

http://www.gatestone...muslims-ijtihad

"Western culture is predicated on questioning: inquiring of authorities how they came to the conclusions they reached "

"A good way to define Western intellectual creativity in the Muslim world is to use the Arabic wordijtihad, roughly meaning using one's intellectual and reasoning capabilities to determine answers. "

"people in the West expect those who have failed to examine why they have failed, and to learn from their mistakes"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Not even getting into the utterly insane conclusions about the Muslim world, that is some huge bullshit right there. But no, you're right, our society is a perfect oasis of faultless rationalism.

Not going to get into it? Why not? You haven't provided any kind of information to back up your point of view (which is what?)... Also I just said that "Now of course this is not to say Western/Christian beliefs don't hold similarities with some of these"... but if you were to directly compare both cultures I don't see how you can say Western society is more oppressive on individuals/free thinking.

Also:

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Any concerns about Islam can be dismissed as illegitimate by attaching a "phobia" at the end of it, and the power of the "phobia" is not just limited to killing debate about the famously moderate religion, but any "extreme" versions of it as well.

I see so many left-wing people too focused on polticial correctness and too focused on Western imperialistic flaws/aggressions that they ignore these problems and claim people who talk about them are bigoted.

Sharia Law is fucked up, but Islamic culture is such a vague, nebulous term that it is not useful in any serious discussion.

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:43 AM, compson said:

You haven't provided any kind of information to back up your point of view (which is what?)

There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet. Obviously. But seriously, I think you're right, Islam is definitely the reason why dictators and unelected leaders impose oppressive laws on their people. That could never and has never happened in a secularised Western nation. Economic inequality and foreign imperialism has nothing to do with driving people towards extremist ideologies. I wish I had access to the same unbiased and reliable sources of information as you - sources that don't make any sweeping unreferenced assumptions. If I had that kind of information, I might be able to give you something worth responding to!

Or maybe I don't really care about changing your mind. Because at the end of the day, it isn't really worth that much to me. Do I like religion? No. Do I think it's used to justify a bunch of oppressive laws and policies worldwide? Yes. Do I think it's the root cause? Not by a long shot. And by focusing on it, you absolve politics, economics and foreign policy of ANY blame. Just look at what you posted and how it posits western liberal values in completely uncritical terms, as if world peace and emancipation could be achieved if every society was structured in the same way as ours. That's insanity, wilful ignorance.

But go on believing it.

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:48 AM, usagi said:

not this shit again. compson, do your fucking homework instead of cherry-picking bits and pieces from articles on web that support your personal opinions about Islam and Muslims.

How about the opposition to this can "cherry pick" something to refute my points, otherwise you are just casting my perspective aside because again it isn't politically correct. White people fear being straight forward about this because they don't want to be seen as a Christian/Right wing nut job. But I have had a lot of discussions with people over this and I haven't seen a comprehensive article that favors Muslim culture. Go move to the middle east if you think what I say is bs.

Also, men in skinny jeans are worse than hitler.

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:55 AM, compson said:

Muslim culture.

--------

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:55 AM, chenGOD said:

Also, men in skinny jeans are worse than hitler.

But we have much nicer hair.

Also

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:55 AM, compson said:

the middle east

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:59 AM, Iain C said:

 

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:55 AM, chenGOD said:

Also, men in skinny jeans are worse than hitler.

 

But we have much nicer hair.

 

 

Well true, but then you don't have the extermination of an entire religious group to worry about.

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:54 AM, Iain C said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:43 AM, compson said:

You haven't provided any kind of information to back up your point of view (which is what?)

 

There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet. Obviously. But seriously, I think you're right, Islam is definitely the reason why dictators and unelected leaders impose oppressive laws on their people. That could never and has never happened in a secularised Western nation. Economic inequality and foreign imperialism has nothing to do with driving people towards extremist ideologies. I wish I had access to the same unbiased and reliable sources of information as you - sources that don't make any sweeping unreferenced assumptions. If I had that kind of information, I might be able to give you something worth responding to!

 

Or maybe I don't really care about changing your mind. Because at the end of the day, it isn't really worth that much to me. Do I like religion? No. Do I think it's used to justify a bunch of oppressive laws and policies worldwide? Yes. Do I think it's the root cause? Not by a long shot. And by focusing on it, you absolve politics, economics and foreign policy of ANY blame. Just look at what you posted and how it posits western liberal values in completely uncritical terms, as if world peace and emancipation could be achieved if every society was structured in the same way as ours. That's insanity, wilful ignorance.

 

But go on believing it.

Western Culture isn't perfect. But I am sick of people saying America, Europe and the Middle East are all the same etc etc... I think Western culture has brought us to the place we are now because it does encourage creativity/freedom more. Thats my main point and until I see someone counter that then I will keep on believing it. I find it odd you would deny that outright and suggest that it could be because of other reasons, without specifying those reasons.

No it's a good point and it's all yours, hold onto it and it'll keep you warm. Bellend.

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:53 AM, chenGOD said:

Sharia Law is fucked up, but Islamic culture is such a vague, nebulous term that it is not useful in any serious discussion.

This is a good point but its a very relevant topic so maybe we should be trying to have a more serious discussion about it more?

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:01 PM, Iain C said:

No it's a good point and it's all yours, hold onto it and it'll keep you warm. Bellend.

Lol relax man... jeez

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:00 PM, chenGOD said:

Well true, but then you don't have the extermination of an entire religious group to worry about.

Haven't you heard? I'm out to holocaust the liberal Christian values that have led us to our unrivalled prosperity and cultural freedom.

lol at cultural explanations as a determinant for political/economic outcomes.

I don't understand what we are supposed to be discussing in this thread then. Does Religion/Culture not influence how a society functions? The correlation with this point especially:

  Quote

The exercise of critical thinking and independent judgment – or Ijtihad --was an important way to address questions in the early centuries of Islam. After approximately 400 years, however, the leaders of the Sunni Muslim world closed the "Gates of Ijtihad;" Muslims were no longer allowed use itjihad to solve problems. If a seemingly new problem arose, they were supposed to find an analogy from earlier scholars and apply that ruling to the problem that arose. From the 10^th century onwards, Sunni Muslim leaders began to see questioning as politically dangerous to their ability to rule. Regrettably, Sunni Muslim leaders reject the use of itjihad to this day.

 

Until Muslim countries and Muslim communities in the West allow their people to express themselves freely -- without fear of reprisal -- it is unlikely that the Muslim world will be able to think creatively and again become a center of science and knowledge, as it used to be in the early centuries of Islam.

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:03 PM, Iain C said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:00 PM, chenGOD said:

Well true, but then you don't have the extermination of an entire religious group to worry about.

 

Haven't you heard? I'm out to holocaust the liberal Christian values that have led us to our unrivalled prosperity and cultural freedom.

yes, well get back to us when you're halfway through and see how nice your hair is then! A little known fact about Hitler is that during his carefree days as a runner in the German army he was well known for his luxurious locks. his nickname among the troops that knew him was "die goldene Mähne".

"Actually, I think Hitler's moustache was better in the first world war." - A you-know-what

Compson: Not really, institutions do. What, you think all muslim nations have the same institutions? want to give a shot at explaining why there are different outcomes among muslim nations?

Scratch a liberal, find a fascist.