Anti-Islaam Film

  Quote

Many parts of the world, such as Korea, China, and India - basically medieval kingdoms fifty or sixty years ago -- are now among the pacesetters of the modern world, both producing, and improving on, existing inventions. The Muslim world, however, often better off than these countries just half a century ago, has remained as it was, or has even, in many instances, deteriorated.

 

This inertia in the Islamic world seems to stem not from any genetic limitations, or even religious ones, but purely from Islamic culture.

 

Religion has nothing to do with this situation; Islam therefore is not the problem: Islamic culture is. Only when Muslims address their culture head-on can there be any real hope for their world to overcome its self-imposed limitations and start fully contributing to the wonders of the 21st century.

"Also while looking for information about human slavery, I came across this 2010 video of Ayann Hirsi Ali, who I find a true hero. For anyone who happens across this post, I think it's worth an hour to listen to her talk and Q & A below, or follow the link above and to learn more elsewhere. She is a fearless fighter to protect women's rights against oppressive power of religious dogma and against relativism that fears to judge any culture lest it be considered intolerant. She provides insight and substance that many simply do not know. Her contribution is important and her views appropriately part of any rational discussion of human rights and Islam."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fe_cuzsmmHU

She was also on the Colbert Report for those who don't have an hour to watch: http://www.comedycentral.com

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:11 PM, chenGOD said:

Compson: Not really, institutions do. What, you think all muslim nations have the same institutions? want to give a shot at explaining why there are different outcomes among muslim nations?

Religion isn't an institution? And Religion doesn't differ among muslim nations? I don't think everything is black/white as it may appear. Perhaps my posts are coming across as black and white to some... I am not being hateful towards Muslims, just critical of it in certain aspects.

And I got all of this info from a scholar usagi, you can read his blog here... http://oldschooltwen...x.blogspot.com/ . He attended the University of Oslo in Norway and got his masters in International Law.

"I know who I am, and I am not afraid to examine issues as I see fit, despite what may occur in the minds of others."

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:18 PM, usagi said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:55 AM, compson said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 11:48 AM, usagi said:

not this shit again. compson, do your fucking homework instead of cherry-picking bits and pieces from articles on web that support your personal opinions about Islam and Muslims.

 

How about the opposition to this can "cherry pick" something to refute my points, otherwise you are just casting my perspective aside because again it isn't politically correct. White people fear being straight forward about this because they don't want to be seen as a Christian/Right wing nut job. But I have had a lot of discussions with people over this and I haven't seen a comprehensive article that favors Muslim culture. Go move to the middle east if you think what I say is bs.

 

I grew up in the Middle East and I am telling you the real situation is so much more complex than your distanced undergrad-level pseudointellectual analysis will ever allow you to understand. how many Muslims have you actually talked to?

 

the fact that you've brought this subject up repeatedly (this is like the third time I've seen you talk about this) and in such simplistic terms just smacks of supremacism.

Probably have talked to 42 Muslims in my life. Lol I have no idea.

You are definitely correct I am presenting my argument in an over simplified way and I wish I could do a better job of gathering everything together and presenting it neatly... it is a very complex issue. I think the speech above does a better job than I could ever do, so maybe watch that. The reason I present these arguments in a simplified manner though is because I think people do the same thing all the time to the West to make it seem like we live in some kind of cultural equivalency and its Western Power/Rule that is the root of all problems.

If she's not knowledgeable or credible, nor this scholar... care to provide someone who is? I am not denying your argument, I am interested in it. That is why I engage in this conversation. I provide information that I know and see what I can learn from others.

Can you watch this and let me know your thoughts?

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:40 PM, compson said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:11 PM, chenGOD said:

Compson: Not really, institutions do. What, you think all muslim nations have the same institutions? want to give a shot at explaining why there are different outcomes among muslim nations?

 

Religion isn't an institution? And Religion doesn't differ among muslim nations? I don't think everything is black/white as it may appear. Perhaps my posts are coming across as black and white to some... I am not being hateful towards Muslims, just critical of it in certain aspects.

Right, religion is an institution (albeit not really a powerful one when it comes to political/economic outcomes, but whatever), and yes religions differ among muslim nations - hell, religions differ within muslim nations.

Which is why for you to make such sweeping statements as you did at the start of all this brouhaha doesn't really contribute anything useful to the conversation.

  On 9/19/2012 at 1:20 PM, chenGOD said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:40 PM, compson said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:11 PM, chenGOD said:

Compson: Not really, institutions do. What, you think all muslim nations have the same institutions? want to give a shot at explaining why there are different outcomes among muslim nations?

 

Religion isn't an institution? And Religion doesn't differ among muslim nations? I don't think everything is black/white as it may appear. Perhaps my posts are coming across as black and white to some... I am not being hateful towards Muslims, just critical of it in certain aspects.

Right, religion is an institution (albeit not really a powerful one when it comes to political/economic outcomes, but whatever), and yes religions differ among muslim nations - hell, religions differ within muslim nations.

Which is why for you to make such sweeping statements as you did at the start of all this brouhaha doesn't really contribute anything useful to the conversation.

My original statement was that strong/extreme beliefs in religion shape cultural in negative ways. Not sure whats so sweeping about that?

  On 9/19/2012 at 1:22 PM, compson said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 1:20 PM, chenGOD said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:40 PM, compson said:

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:11 PM, chenGOD said:

Compson: Not really, institutions do. What, you think all muslim nations have the same institutions? want to give a shot at explaining why there are different outcomes among muslim nations?

 

Religion isn't an institution? And Religion doesn't differ among muslim nations? I don't think everything is black/white as it may appear. Perhaps my posts are coming across as black and white to some... I am not being hateful towards Muslims, just critical of it in certain aspects.

Right, religion is an institution (albeit not really a powerful one when it comes to political/economic outcomes, but whatever), and yes religions differ among muslim nations - hell, religions differ within muslim nations.

Which is why for you to make such sweeping statements as you did at the start of all this brouhaha doesn't really contribute anything useful to the conversation.

 

My original statement was that strong/extreme beliefs in religion shape cultural in negative ways. Not sure whats so sweeping about that?

Just so no-one is confused, here's Compson's original statement.

  Quote

Islamic Culture and Sharia Law are generally negatives on society.

Taken from this post: forum.watmm.com/topic/75741-anti-islaam-film/page__st__50#entry1879144

And so I repeat myself myself: broad sweeping statements like "islamic culture is generally a negative on society" do not contribute in any meaningful way to the conversation.

Also that gatestone institute you keep linking to has a very clear agenda - from their "about" page:

-A military capable of ensuring peace at home and in the free world

and "Gatestone Institute is funded by private donors and foundations. We are grateful for your support."

Gee, i wonder who their private donors could be.

I would also say Christian culture and other religions are generally a negative on society...

But I guess because I just said Islam, I am making sweeping bigoted generalizations...

In regards to Gatestone... not sure what your point is. Clearly they have an agenda, but I don't see anything wrong with ensuring peace at home/in the free world. Who do you think their private donors are?

If you are gonna claim my source is totally wrong, then please provide some sources yourself. If I posted articles about why Christianity is stupid, I doubt anyone here would disagree or suspect it.

"Is the messenger of God....gay?!"

"Yes! And Omar also!"

lol

I wonder if right wing Christian nutters also ran amok when they made The Life Of Brian

Whereas i would say christian fanaticism is a negative aspect of the religion. Much like Muslim extremism is a negative aspect of an otherwise peaceful group of people.

instead of saying "Christianity is stupid (great track btw)" or "Muslims are all terrorists" - why not try and identify that which is at the root of the problem. It is clearly not just as simple as saying "Islamic culture is bad" otherwise we'd have 1.5 billion muslims raging.

i think you'll probably find the west's meddling in the modern middle east has been going on for about 70 years, and because these problems stem from a desire to impose and maintain certain systems for the benefit of some nations at the expense of others, they can be exploited to create political upheaval.

I'm not a middle east scholar, so I can't speak to the specifics of the situation, but I'd say if you want to know how the west's political elite has thought about the middle east for the last 20 years, you might want to give Samuel Huntington's "The Clash of Civilizations" a read. As a rebuttal to that, Edward Said's discussion on the book is excellent, and can be found on youtube quite easily.

Cool, I will quickly say because I have spent two hours now in this thread that I will look into these things usagi/chengod and return with a response later. I honestly think this has delved into semantics, mostly by my fault of waking up in the middle of the night and deciding to get into this while smoking some weed. Definitely not communicating my thoughts as clearly as I would like to but I appreciate this being a relatively relaxed conversation.

Sorry, but declaring that the culture of 1.5 billion people is generally a negative on society (which society?) is not semantics.

Culture that is fueled by Islamic extremities* generally is a negative on society, as is the same for other religions. But Islamic extremities seem to be more prevalent in the modern world of the Middle East compared to the West.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7dRr854zxbA

lol conservative youtube channel

guys check out these videos about how racism and sexism dont exist anymore

German intellectuals and especially lefties were proud to say "we have overcome religion" in the 70s. They insulted christian religion as much as they could. Today they are tolerant towards Islam and "religous feelings". WTF?

I have no tolerance about the intolerance of freedom of speech. If you pee into your pants or feel to burn flags because of a crappy video, don't watch it. Nuff said.

It's all braindead. I refuse to be tolerant with braindeads.

Just because something is Conservative doesn't make it Fox News.

why can't we be annoyed by Islamic extremism now? Not to add fuel to an uncomfortable debate, but I'm tired of (some) Muslims having a hair-trigger as well. Of course I'm also tired of knee-jerk reactions from the tea party in the US, and the Chinese and Japanese getting pissed about some rocks out in the water, etc etc...

I found this video mostly hilarious. I'd also like to think I could sit down with some Muslim dude and enjoy a kebab together.

those islamic extremists get my goat

islam: the goat religion

dont say that they will suicide bomb your mum and impose sharia law.

if only they were athiests!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok, so we can all agree upon the following conclusions?

1)Generalizations are bad

2) All atheists are privileged white people

3) Islamic extremism has nothing to do with religious belief

4) The United States is bad

5)Tim Hecker sleeveless shirts will get you lynched

  On 9/19/2012 at 3:27 PM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

ok, so we can all agree upon the following conclusions?

 

1)Generalizations are bad

2) All atheists are privileged white people

3) Islamic extremism has nothing to do with religious belief

4) The United States is bad

5)Tim Hecker sleeveless shirts will get you lynched

lol

  On 9/19/2012 at 12:04 PM, chenGOD said:

lol at cultural explanations as a determinant for political/economic outcomes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

  On 9/19/2012 at 3:27 PM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

ok, so we can all agree upon the following conclusions?

 

1)Generalizations are bad

2) All atheists are privileged white people

3) Islamic extremism has nothing to do with religious belief

4) The United States is bad

5)Tim Hecker sleeveless shirts will get you lynched

Good wind-up bits.

I'm of the belief that any male wearing a sleeveless shirt in an ironic-free manner deserves to be lynched.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go censor some people's feelings on Islamic extremism.

Eugene - Weber's argument has been largely overridden. And no, not by Jared Diamond, although he certainly does bring up some interesting points.

  On 9/19/2012 at 4:32 PM, chenGOD said:

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go censor some people's feelings on Islamic extremism.

What?