Death (a difficult subject)

  On 1/27/2013 at 9:24 PM, StephenG said:

Thanks =).

 

This girl is a complete POS and I hope karma does its thing and ensures her death is painful.

When I used to have a drinking problem, I never endangered other peoples lives....Take a fucking cab or public transit.

 

I don't think I have anything to add to this thread though or any answers to Happy's questions. It's not a topic I'm ready to confront at age 23 I guess!

Are you the same kind of dickhead who calls for people to be raped in prison? Because that's how you're coming across. Could it be that you see too much of yourself in this woman - "Well, I was bad - but at least I wasn't that bad!"

I'd hope somebody who'd struggled with addiction would have a little bit more empathy. And a little more hope in a person's potential for reform.

  On 1/28/2013 at 5:49 AM, doorjamb said:

 

  On 1/27/2013 at 9:24 PM, StephenG said:

It's not a topic I'm ready to confront at age 23 I guess!

23 year olds die every day.

 

how old should one be before contemplating death?; not that there is necessarily any knowledge to be gained through its contemplation, but why such reluctance? is it dangerous? or just distasteful?

Absolutely true. Fear maybe? I think people don't usually contemplate death because they figure if they ignore it, it will be a non-issue. I'm not sure.

  On 1/28/2013 at 4:15 PM, Iain C said:

 

  On 1/27/2013 at 9:24 PM, StephenG said:

Thanks =).

 

This girl is a complete POS and I hope karma does its thing and ensures her death is painful.

When I used to have a drinking problem, I never endangered other peoples lives....Take a fucking cab or public transit.

 

I don't think I have anything to add to this thread though or any answers to Happy's questions. It's not a topic I'm ready to confront at age 23 I guess!

 

Are you the same kind of dickhead who calls for people to be raped in prison? Because that's how you're coming across. Could it be that you see too much of yourself in this woman - "Well, I was bad - but at least I wasn't that bad!"

 

I'd hope somebody who'd struggled with addiction would have a little bit more empathy. And a little more hope in a person's potential for reform.

Of course I have empathy for people struggling with addiction. I lose a lot of that empathy for drunk drivers. I think there's a big difference between being an addict and being an addict who kills innocent people in the process.

And no I wouldn't want anyone raped in prison. But I don't think it's fair to equate reform for an addict with all of the issues that person caused under the influence as never having happened. Sure, she may get help and get better; I hope she gets help and gets better.

She still killed an innocent person. She still made the choice to drive intoxicated. Her. Not the alcohol. Alcohol doesn't put keys in your hand.

But I still hope karma has its way with her in the end. (That could mean 60 years from now, who knows?)

Edit: and I'm not a dickhead, that's not very nice.

This topic of karma just doesn't make any sense to me. How much suffering have we imposed on third world countries, on people whose jobs we took instead of them, hell any kind of random event that lead to something bad happening to someone else, whether we knew it or not. Even just a sentence we said to someone and it lead to bad consequences for that person. The universe is a big clusterfuck of events and nobody knows exactly how it ties together and what influences what, karma is incomprehensible to me in this context, especially when talking about who deserves what.

On topic though, I had a period a while back when I was terrified of irreversible damage, whether to myself or to someone else. There's something about the permanency of certain types of damage that is utterly terrifying, in a very real way. Death could be the ultimate permanency in this sense. I have no idea how I'd react if I had accidentally killed someone, whether in a car accident or otherwise. I honestly have no idea. I can imagine I would feel anxiety, fear, sadness and all kinds of stuff. I have never done anything very bad to another person, so this kind of thing is hard to imagine for me.

RE Karma. I think it's just some people's way of wishing that some sort of justice will be served. I don't actually believe karma is something tangible or that it really exists. I just use the term kind of analagous to justice.

"I hope she gets help and gets better."

"But I still hope karma has its way with her in the end. (That could mean 60 years from now, who knows?)"

Which is it?

If your idea of justice is somebody dying painfully for a mistake they made - even a mistake with grave and tragic consequences - then I just can't get behind that. It's dangerous, mob-like, reactionary thinking - and when that's coupled with "Even when I was an alcoholic, I never did anything like that!" it seems more than a little hypocritical. Sure, you never got behind the wheel of a car... but did you ever hit anybody? Injure yourself? Steal? Emotionally or psychologically abuse a loved one, or a stranger?

Where do you draw the line beyond which somebody must "die painfully"? I don't buy this eye for an eye shit in the slightest.

"I don't think it's fair to equate reform for an addict with all of the issues that person caused under the influence as never having happened."

But that's not what I'm saying. She should definitely face consequences for her actions. But I don't think you forfeit your right to life when you get behind the wheel of a car when drunk.

PS, the current quoting system on WATMM is fucking bollocks and broken.

  On 1/28/2013 at 4:15 PM, Iain C said:

 

  On 1/27/2013 at 9:24 PM, StephenG said:

 

Thanks =).

 

This girl is a complete POS and I hope karma does its thing and ensures her death is painful.

When I used to have a drinking problem, I never endangered other peoples lives....Take a fucking cab or public transit.

 

I don't think I have anything to add to this thread though or any answers to Happy's questions. It's not a topic I'm ready to confront at age 23 I guess!

Are you the same kind of dickhead who calls for people to be raped in prison? Because that's how you're coming across. Could it be that you see too much of yourself in this woman - "Well, I was bad - but at least I wasn't that bad!"

 

I'd hope somebody who'd struggled with addiction would have a little bit more empathy. And a little more hope in a person's potential for reform.

wtf why are you bringing rape into a topic that has nothing to do with rape?

Yeah I get that, I meant it that way too. Not in a magic way. Justice is a kind of local pick-and-choose type of affair, not really justice in the universal sense, and especially not in these types of situations was my point.

  On 1/28/2013 at 4:59 PM, Hoodie said:

 

  On 1/28/2013 at 4:15 PM, Iain C said:

 

  On 1/27/2013 at 9:24 PM, StephenG said:

 

Thanks =).

 

This girl is a complete POS and I hope karma does its thing and ensures her death is painful.

When I used to have a drinking problem, I never endangered other peoples lives....Take a fucking cab or public transit.

 

I don't think I have anything to add to this thread though or any answers to Happy's questions. It's not a topic I'm ready to confront at age 23 I guess!

Are you the same kind of dickhead who calls for people to be raped in prison? Because that's how you're coming across. Could it be that you see too much of yourself in this woman - "Well, I was bad - but at least I wasn't that bad!"

 

I'd hope somebody who'd struggled with addiction would have a little bit more empathy. And a little more hope in a person's potential for reform.

wtf why are you bringing rape into a topic that has nothing to do with rape?

Because this "I hope she dies painfully!" attitude stems from the same dumb mentality that says "Well, at least he'll be taking it up the arse in prison!" which was all over this board in a recent thread, I can't remember which one.

@ Iain C.

No I've never hit anyone, stole, injured myself or anyone else or abused anyone while on alcohol. This is mostly because I'm very introverted, and I only used alcohol to escape from reality (all of my family and friends seem to be dying).

But I understand where you're coming from and I agree it is a reactionary way of thinking. Maybe you should know that my little brother was killed in a drunk driving incident (a couple years ago). That is likely where my line of thinking has evolved from. It might not be right, I don't know.

"But I understand where you're coming from and I agree it is a reactionary way of thinking. Maybe you should know that my little brother was killed in a drunk driving incident. That is likely where my line of thinking has evolved from. It might not be right, I don't know."

Sorry to hear about your brother. I can see how that would inform your reaction. I think it's very tempting to look at people like this as being monsters, when they're not. It makes it easier to say "Well, it could never have been me..."

But in truth, I'm grateful that none of my intoxicated or self-destructive behaviour has caused lasting harm to myself or another person - I'm sure it's come close. I think it's a very easy line to cross.

To actually answer the OP: I couldn't say how I'd react in this girl's position. Probably fairly similarly. It's natural to try and reason or argue your way out of something when your mind refuses to accept the enormity of what you've done. I'd imagine that one week later she'd feel rather differently - but obviously we can't see that from this news report.

As for how I think of death generally - I've lately come to realise that I'm terrified of it. I must be getting older. Two years ago I was in hospital (stupidly enough, in an accident related to drinking) and being diagnosed with a heart condition but I didn't really care or think about it much at the time. Now I have a general, directionless anxiety about it whenever I turn my mind to it.

I think death is neat. Not looking forward to it personally, and don't wish it on any particular individual more than another, but its existence and necessity (?) in the way life is designed is pretty fascinating.

I would not react well in this girl's position. I've always felt bad for people like this, even though it's their fault, because I empathize with guilt more than anything else. Guilt and anxiety together is the worst thing ever, and getting that mix has in the past caused some of the few times that I've wanted death more than anything else.

If you don't drink and drive you won't kill yourself or other innocent people. It's like playing around with loaded guns. The actual action of firing the gun or killing someone with your car may have been a mistake in that moment, but if you play with fire you get burned. And people need to realize how dangerous and irresponsible it is to behave in such a way. I say call them monsters, revoke their license and let them spend years in prison thinking about their decisions. If you can see yourself in her shoes because you drink and drive, you should reconsider your own actions and the enormity that it involves. A car is a very dangerous tool with or without alcohol, so the same thing applies to people who speed or drive recklessly. I think its unfortunate that our society promotes alcohol and being peddle to the metal, but it doesn't take a rocket science to think through the pros and cons. So I see no reason to classify a drunk driver as anything but a monster. An extremely stupid, irresponsible, destructive act.

never mind

  On 1/28/2013 at 5:55 PM, Iain C said:

Compson's world, where everything is black and white, except for the brown people who suck.

Drunk Driving is black and white.

Don't drink and drive.

edit: lol why change your toon?

"I'm sure it's come close. I think it's a very easy line to cross."

Crossing that line, just because it's easy doesn't mean it's not extremely stupid, irresponsible, and destructive. And if you think you are invincible and you can handle it, you are pretty much a monster on the road and I hope nothing bad comes from it.

I don't take issue with that. I never have, and hopefully never would. But I'm very wary about categorising people as "monsters". It's an easy way to avoid looking at WHY things happen and identifying ways to stop them before they occur. It also makes you sound like a bit of an idiot.

"lol why change your toon"

Because I'm sick of arguing with you and I have better things to do this afternoon.

  On 1/28/2013 at 6:07 PM, Iain C said:

I don't take issue with that. I never have, and hopefully never would. But I'm very wary about categorising people as "monsters". It's an easy way to avoid looking at WHY things happen and identifying ways to stop them before they occur. It also makes you sound like a bit of an idiot.

 

"lol why change your toon"

 

Because I'm sick of arguing with you and I have better things to do this afternoon.

But its easy for you to call people dickheads right?

You are such a phony baloney lol.

Piss off Mike. I'm sure even your simple, weed-addled mind can see that there was more to my comment than that.

  On 1/28/2013 at 4:22 PM, StephenG said:

 

  On 1/28/2013 at 5:49 AM, doorjamb said:

 

  On 1/27/2013 at 9:24 PM, StephenG said:

It's not a topic I'm ready to confront at age 23 I guess!

23 year olds die every day.

 

how old should one be before contemplating death?; not that there is necessarily any knowledge to be gained through its contemplation, but why such reluctance? is it dangerous? or just distasteful?

 

 

Absolutely true. Fear maybe? I think people don't usually contemplate death because they figure if they ignore it, it will be a non-issue. I'm not sure.

Fear of death strikes me as analogous to a child's fear of growing up. Just another state of (non-)being, innit; a new mode of engagement with (the rest of) reality.

imho the only sound response to death's certainty lies between curious intrigue and conscious indifference. ignoring it solves nothing; leaves one with an incomplete perception of the nature of one's being and place in the world.

well said..

  On 1/28/2013 at 5:53 PM, compson said:

If you don't drink and drive you won't kill yourself or other innocent people.

I see what you're saying, but, false. Sober people kill each other in car accidents all the time. Texting causes it, eating causes it, dogs in the front seat cause it, simple negligence causes it, etc. Drunk driving is indeed a terrible thing to do though (I say this having driven drunk in the distant past (10+ years ago, as a teenager), and please don't any of you dare preach at me about it - I'm already regretful of many things in my past, but refuse to dwell on them)

I've always felt that considering people "monsters" or whatever for what they've done is hypocritical; I believe that all people have done things that adversely affect others, whether they are quite this dangerous or not. Viewing other people this way doesn't take into account upbringing or biological personality issues; sure, this stuff is still very wrong, but would you have done things differently in their situation? There's not much of a way of telling. And there are plenty of things that you've done that are wrong that that person would never have done.

Saying what people did was bad/that it's healthy for people to face some discipline is fine; dehumanizing people is not. Maybe it's my Christian upbringing, but I've always considered pretty much everyone to be seriously flawed, so looking down on someone for their flaws is something I consider hypocritical.

More or less in agreement with that.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

  On 1/28/2013 at 6:27 PM, luke viia said:

 

  On 1/28/2013 at 5:53 PM, compson said:

If you don't drink and drive you won't kill yourself or other innocent people.

 

I see what you're saying, but, false. Sober people kill each other in car accidents all the time. Texting causes it, eating causes it, dogs in the front seat cause it, simple negligence causes it, etc. Drunk driving is indeed a terrible thing to do though (I say this having driven drunk in the distant past (10+ years ago, as a teenager), and please don't any of you dare preach at me about it - I'm already regretful of many things in my past, but refuse to dwell on them)

Did you read my entire post? "A car is a very dangerous tool with or without alcohol, so the same thing applies to people who speed or drive recklessly."

  Quote

 

I've always felt that considering people "monsters" or whatever for

what they've done is hypocritical; I believe that all people have done

things that adversely affect others, whether they are quite this

dangerous or not. Viewing other people this way doesn't take into

account upbringing or biological personality issues; sure, this stuff is

still very wrong, but would you have done things differently in their

situation? There's not much of a way of telling. And there are plenty of

things that you've done that are wrong that that person would never

have done.

 

Saying what people did was bad/that it's healthy for people to face

some discipline is fine; dehumanizing people is not. Maybe it's my

Christian upbringing, but I've always considered pretty much everyone to

be seriously flawed, so looking down on someone for their flaws is

something I consider hypocritical.

Completely disagree. With friends and I, if someone is attempting to leave and drive drunk, every friend of mine I know always enforces that that person should stay, nap it off or get a ride with someone else who is sober. If someone ignores this request, we will call them pieces of shit, a dumbass, monster etc... We are looking out for their interests by aggressively (with words) condoning their behavior and attitude and making it as clear as day that they are doing something wrong. It's not about being polite in situations that could end causing someones life. You don't just push stuff aside because of their genetics or upbringing. There is no excuse and therefore those who abuse rules such as drinking and driving should be publicly shamed. This is what interventions are. You aren't trying to make them feel worthless, you are trying to make them understand the wrong turns they have taken so that you can better help them. In a situation where a drunk retard is ignoring your polite request to sit down and sober up, then yes you get medieval on their ass (even if that requires removing their car keys by force).

"And there are plenty of things that you've done that are wrong that that person would never have done."

What does this mean? Everyone puts other peoples lives in danger and/or kills someone? You seem overly sympathetic towards people who do the wrong thing. Pushing their immoral actions aside as if everyone is born a sinner and needs to be cured of it by surrendering to Christ (?). I mean Christians believe in Heaven and Hell, isn't that the ultimate prison? If you don't abide by what the Bible says you will burn in hell for eternity. I'd personally rather be called a monster and spend a few years in jail for manslaughter than believe in that kind of reality. Sorry.