wtf is a person supposed to actually do about israel murdering hundreds of innocent civilians.

i knew this thread will go that way :(

i'm out =>

  On 7/25/2014 at 11:02 PM, klore said:

i knew this thread will go that way :(

 

i'm out =>

i'm equally sad but is there any other way?

Maybe peace will be found through baseball. Those Palestinian kids have excellent throwing arms and no doubt the Israelis have a lot of experience swinging batons. If they were ever to team up they would be unstoppable.

"What a clusterfuck."

-Everyone since the beginning of history

humans, they always think they are "right"

  On 7/25/2014 at 10:41 PM, eugene said:

im off to watch harry potter in 3d

As difficult as it might be, do not masturbate to Hermione.

  On 7/25/2014 at 10:30 PM, Alcofribas said:

one of your dumbest posts ever lol.

By lol, do you mean quiver silently in your sweaty vinyl IKEA desk chair?

<3

thanks for the incite into my post eugene.....yes, both sides have their faults but I am just showing where I am coming from. I could write a well researched op ed post in this thread but others are doing that already.

  Quote

 

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

  On 7/25/2014 at 11:11 PM, DerWaschbar said:

Maybe peace will be found through baseball. Those Palestinian kids have excellent throwing arms and no doubt the Israelis have a lot of experience swinging batons. If they were ever to team up they would be unstoppable.

We could combine my field and your baseball plan? If you build it.. they will come.

  On 7/25/2014 at 11:50 PM, sheatheman said:

 

  On 7/25/2014 at 10:30 PM, Alcofribas said:

one of your dumbest posts ever lol.

 

By lol, do you mean quiver silently in your sweaty vinyl IKEA desk chair?

 

<3

dude, don't even bother. go sit in a tree with shorts on. stop poking at me just bc I called you out for your irrelevant position.

  On 7/25/2014 at 10:47 PM, Lane Visitor said:

 

  On 7/25/2014 at 10:00 PM, Alcofribas said:

lane -- my "more Jews should be killed" comment was a mockery of eugene who has accussed people (myself included) who are upset with the civilian casualties as wanting more dead Jews. I think it's a pathetic and shameful accusation used by insecure, petty people. my entire post was obviously sarcastic.

 

I see.. I misunderstood the context as it wasnt clear to me. It's all good.

As far as my labeling hamas as terrorists somehow meaning that im careless of the children in gaza who have been killed is preposterous. Of course, it's horrific, and I pray for all the children and innocents in both palestinian, israeli areas as well as the world.

And there are no buts, children dying is never okay.

I don't feel that my calling out hamas for what they are is anything short of reasonable. As ive said, they are classified as a terrorist organization by essentially several continents on the globe. You can argue the definition of terrorism, and say that intent doesnt matter, etc, but Hamas' standings and reputation is quite well known. Most religious extremist groups don't hide the fact that they're extremist.

Where I stand indifferent to your sentiments and probably many ppl in this thread is that I do not subscribe to the belief that the israeli govt/ idf are just a bunch of blood thirsty, genocidal maniacs like it's some simply explained cartoon-style antagonist. That's fine, we already agree to disagree. I stand even further against the claim that an ENTIRE country is a racist, genocidal country, and the people themselves are horrible people, which some ppl on this forum have been saying with carelessness and ignorance. If I said right now that palestinians are garbage/scum, anyone would have any right to call me out for being a racist asshole... Yet it's okay for people in here to say that israel/israelis are evil, racist, etc.. Unfair treatment.. Ppl are people. Call out the leadership and the ppl in charge of their military action/extremist factions, not the people of the land. Thats the problem I have.

Discussing the history of this conflict, current issues, ceasefires, military strategy, and the hopes for a solution of both sides of the Israeli Palestinian conflict is what's fair... Not lambasting or demonizing an entire people/country.

We all want peace/a solution... Ignorance will never get close to that. Some of those sentiments I quoted (sans your own that i misinterpreted) are the types of words that do more harm than good. Like really, Roasty, and Beerwolf? Do you want more divisiveness? More intolerance? More misunderstanding? More blaming? Those posts are hurtful to an entire people, whether that's israelis, muslims, jews or palestinians... And even in the case of "oh i was kidding dude, chill, or i was being fuckin ironic", fuck that. Thats some childish hatred, and to hide opinions or strong sentiments behind racist jokes is for cowards, and from my perspective, more damaging and ignorant than being outright with your beliefs. Maybe you do believe that, thats fine, and go ahead and express if you want, and ill be here to call you out.

And yes i can be pissed about posts like that, and no i dont have to prove that the deaths make me angry at the same time. Its watmm, were safe in our homes on the internet. We're not on the front lines. Were discussing current events. Were all human. A racist post is a racist post. I'll say it a thousands times, you can hide those sentiments behind as many war crimes and massacres as you want... It'll always be racism.

P.s. Alco, those last parts werent directed at you btw

um, I specifically directed my criticism at the Israeli government, not the people of israel. not sure wtf you're on about. aren't you the one who made claims about Hamas and "their people" anyway?

you haven't addressed the substance of my posts at all. and josh, while I agree with you 100% about watmm solidarity I cannot subscribe to your idea that "fuck israel" isn't an acceptable position. it's a disgusting government and should be condemned. whether or not you or other watmmers agree hough, we're still family imo.

  On 7/26/2014 at 1:31 AM, Obel said:

 

  On 7/25/2014 at 11:11 PM, DerWaschbar said:

Maybe peace will be found through baseball. Those Palestinian kids have excellent throwing arms and no doubt the Israelis have a lot of experience swinging batons. If they were ever to team up they would be unstoppable.

 

We could combine my field and your baseball plan? If you build it.. they will come.

 

Of course! The final piece of the puzzle. Mods close thread please.

eugene: I'd like to know what you think is a solution to the problem. all I'm seeing is constant denial and defense.

Discussing things related to Israel unfortunately ends in a mess, usually because of my fellow citizens, who think they should have to discuss something else beside the actual topic. I mean, Palestinians in Germany are angry because some guys dropped bombs on Palestine, and now Germany discusses not the topic itself, but if maybe they used evil sentences when they demonstrated on our streets, words which have no right to exist. ROTFL.

"You are allowed to demonstrate, but please do not use unfriendly words and please do not disturb anyone. And please remove your waste after the demonstration and go home, you have to work tomorrow morning".

Germany. Wow we really have problems.

This thread has Existenzrecht (right to exist), do not close it.

Once germany gets it's gold back it won't have to care what US bankers tell it not to say. Germany pussed out recently though and pushed back delivery to sometime never even after not being allowed to audit the stocks held in the US. heh. So i guess germany has to mince words to appease the deviants of the world for a bit longer.

  On 7/26/2014 at 1:27 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

 

  Quote

 

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "[/size]Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region. [/size]

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

  On 7/26/2014 at 12:12 PM, Gocab said:

 

  On 7/26/2014 at 1:27 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

 

  Quote

 

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "[/size]Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region. [/size]

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

Yeah, and nobody seems to give a shit. Just an excuse to kill some Palestinians/"terrorists".

 

because it doesn't have much to do with current escalation. the idf went on looking for the teenagers in west bank and hamas intensified rocket fire on israel from gaza on for which hamas did take responsibility, israel responded to that and it became what it became. israel didn't start shelling gaza randomly after that quote by netanyahu. the people who are suspected for that murder of teenagers are actual hamas members (who probably did work as a lone wolves), and hamas praised the kidnapping and has a history of kidnappings so it was a very reasonable assumption at the time though it was not unheard of that it might be not the case, it's not like it's a huge fucking revelation of some grand conspiracy.

make an effort and try to piece the whole puzzle instead of looking for torn out of context events that confirm to your "israel is evil theory".

  On 7/26/2014 at 9:04 AM, usagi said:

eugene: I'd like to know what you think is a solution to the problem. all I'm seeing is constant denial and defense.

you're seeing counterarguments to ignorance most of the people are spouting here, not denial or defense.

the solution to current escalation in gaza? well, a ceasefire.

the long term solution to the larger issue of gaza blockade? hamas has to either disappear and relinquish control back to PA or to officially recognize israel and stop its terror attacks for good like plo did at the time. unless this happens those escalation "rounds" will probably repeat themselves whenever hamas feels like trying to protest something with a barrage of rockets on israeli civilians.

the long term solution to the problem of Palestinian and Israeli cohabitation, is what I meant. not these 'symptoms', e.g. the current escalation, or even the questions of leadership/tactics on either side, but the larger problem itself of how these two peoples are going to live together (if at all). I've never seen any post of yours that's given a hint about how you really view that, I'm curious to know.

do Palestinians at least have an equal right to live there under equally peaceful terms?

  On 7/26/2014 at 3:11 PM, usagi said:

the long term solution to the problem of Palestinian and Israeli cohabitation, is what I meant. not these 'symptoms', e.g. the current escalation, or even the questions of leadership/tactics on either side, but the larger problem itself of how these two peoples are going to live together (if at all). I've never seen any post of yours that's given a hint about how you really view that, I'm curious to know.

 

do Palestinians at least have an equal right to live there under equally peaceful terms?

i was about to ask the same thing.

i did mention it a couple of times in previous discussions - i support this party in israel. it's nothing extraordinary really: full removal of israeli forces from west bank; arab quartets in jerusalem go to palestinian control, holy places go under some kind of joint/international control; partial evacuation of settlements and land swaps which will result in control of about ~95% of west bank by palestinians plus some land swaps to compensate for israeli settlement lands in west bank that will remain; no massive influx of palestinian refugees descendants into israel but some kind of proper compensation for loss of land and property that occurred in the 47-48 war. for that israel should get complete recognition and cessation of further demands from palesitnians and other arab states (except syria, i guess, with which there's the golan heights issue)

meretz. well if i live in israel i guess i'd support them too. two state is a good temporary solution (for a 1, 10 or 100 yrs) but i still think that in the future that should be one state. i see it as a better solution even after all this wars and killings and you can laugh as much as you want. ppl are ppl are we like to love each other as much as we can. sounds naive but i still think that it's possible for them to live happily in one state, even more happy than in two.

  On 7/26/2014 at 3:32 PM, eugene said:

i did mention it a couple of times in previous discussions - i support this party in israel. it's nothing extraordinary really: full removal of israeli forces from west bank; arab quartets in jerusalem go to palestinian control, holy places go under some kind of joint/international control; partial evacuation of settlements and land swaps which will result in control of about ~95% of west bank by palestinians plus some land swaps to compensate for israeli settlement lands in west bank that will remain; no massive influx of palestinian refugees descendants into israel but some kind of proper compensation for loss of land and property that occurred in the 47-48 war. for that israel should get complete recognition and cessation of further demands from palesitnians and other arab states (except syria, i guess, with which there's the golan heights issue)

I basically agree with this. I'm undecided about the refugee issue and I think the insistence on the "recognition" point is irrelevant but yeah, I agree with eugene. I think his stance is basic.

I agree with eugene. what. the. fuck.