wtf is a person supposed to actually do about israel murdering hundreds of innocent civilians.

I know, it's not about the ratio itself, I'm simply using it as a hard fact to quantitatively demonstrate how hugely skewed this conflict is. Israel has a massive advantage over their opponent and yes, I don't think it's playing fair at all. how is ~700 vs 30 any indication of fair? with the resources and abilities at Israel's disposal, can they not work out how to attack the problem more surgically instead of using such blunt tactics? I'm sure they can, but they don't care to. this is about anger and hatred and collective punishment. what about the white phosphorus horror stories? why would anyone deploy that shit on civilians for any reason other than out of pure spite? or is there some way to rationalise that away too?

what bothers me is the disturbing lack of conscience shown on their part. even in war, there are ways to fight honourably, viewing your opponent not as Satan incarnate but as fellow humans that you happen to be locked into a conflict with. I'm not saying that the Palestinians or any other peoples would do much better if the roles were reversed and they had a huge advantage over Israel. at bottom this is a human problem more than anything else. however the fact remains that here and now, Israel is the bigger man, and they're not acting like it at all. they have given up any semblance of treating Palestinians like human beings. it's repugnant.

  On 7/24/2014 at 1:16 PM, MadameChaos said:

Keep talking about it, keep it in the news, on people's agenda. It's been swept under the carpet for years because people have ignored it.

I disagree with this for the most part. (I hate to single out this comment, but it's a apt post for me to share my two cents)

The issue is extremely pervasive in domestic politics in Western countries, lobbying forces that shape international policy, and in the media. It's all be extremely one-sided and/or superficial and incendiary. Most people have not even the slightest knowledge about the regions turbulent history.

A huge part of the problem in America, which is relevant because of the exceptional level of support and aid we send to Israel, is how biased and misinformed the vast majority of citizens are regarding the Palestinian people and Palestinian territories, to the point where in conservative and religious parts of the U.S., simply sympathizing with the Palestinians could very much make you a pariah. It's not uncommon to see towns and suburbs in Texas completely devoid of Jewish citizens that have bumper stickers, murals, or banners expressing adamant support for Israel. There are literally local elections where evangelical Christians list "supporting Israel" as a major issue on their campaign sites.

So the problem isn't that the issue and conflict isn't talked about, it's the strict guidelines that have been gradually constructed that limit and restrict what you can and can't say. If you are a well known person, you can't be bluntly anti-Israeli or anti-Zionist without being labeled, in the media and professionally, as an anti-Semite. You can't avoiding apologizing for it (or at the very least, clarifying it greatly) in some manner without repercussion. You can't point out the facts about how there's a pro-Israeli bias in the news and media without facing a retort that you "think Jews run the media" and are therefore racist and bigoted. You can't point out the lack of empathy among many Israelis toward Palestinian victims without someone showing you a video of Palestinians cheering in response to the 9/11 attacks. You can't speak up for the right for Palestinians to defend themselves without criticism of Hamas and other Palestinian-affiliated terrorist groups. You can't simply state the many reasons why the Palestinians are oppressed and marginalized victims, even during cease-fires, without a emotional diatribe about the Holocaust or the early decades of Israel's struggle against Arab invasions.

NOBODY wants even fucking touch the fact that religion, not religious extremism, but just the core religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are the heart of the delusional, illogical, and immoral ideologies that perpetuate this conflict. The Holy Lands are historically rich and should be protected for their cultural and artistic wealth, but the fact that there is a visceral war over who "owns" it and that millions of people have been brainwashed into believing they should kill and die for such an absurdly intangible concept as a "ethnic homeland" is absolutely disturbing. It's absolutely disheartening to me, and it's a conclusion that isn't easy to make, but nonetheless one I firmly stand by. I don't sympathize with anyone who feels compelled to fight in this conflict for "what they believe in" and when you strip away all of the political and social nuances to this war, that's the core of why there's a conflict.

Stubbornness, fear, hatred, pride...these are all the things that prevent steps toward resolutions and treaties, and these are by sheer lopsided nature of resources and power in this conflict, now on Israel to change. Hamas is in power because Gaza is a fucking hopeless ghetto. If you seriously ponder what it would be like to live in Gaza with no rights, no opportunity, not even one avenue to negotiate desperately with the other side, you'd be hard-pressed to not to feel anger and hatred towards Israel. Keep in mind that it's not only dangerous to speak against Hamas, but Palestinians are literally guilty by association no matter what. We all (that I know of) live in countries with the luxury of not fearing for our lives because our government is despised. Can you imagine living in the UK or US, without our huge militarizes and economic might, and literally worrying that our friends and family might be "accidentally" bombed in efforts to liberate us from our corrupt, authoritative leaders?

I've written more than I intended. Look, with all due respect I sincerely have no ill wishes toward Eugene nor any Israel apologist here on WATMM. But I can't defend the actions of the Israeli government in this invasion. (I'm a proud American and Texan, but likewise there is so much my leaders have down now and in the past I will never defend). I'm very much angered by the utter arrogance and superiority their leaders project in their arguments against providing even the slightest effort in helping and respecting the rights of the Palestinian people. It's incredible that such an underdog of a sovereign nation just 60 years ago has become such a passive aggressive and unwieldy country toward millions of people within it's own borders, and complacent to the Arab nations that oppressed Palestinians in the past. I really hope this is something we look back on with regret and that progress wins out. In the present day though, it's just discouraging and disheartening to behold.

the current thing is to boycott sodastream

Hamas believes those children are martyrs. They are doing each human shield a favor.

  On 7/24/2014 at 11:29 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 11:22 PM, sheatheman said:

 

obviously, the imo is universally implied. but mo is right.

I'm still curious to hear what you would do if someone broke into your place with the intention of killing you.

 

Would you let him kill you because you are categorically anti-violence?

 

Is there any point at which you would fight back?

Well if it means using a gun and basically being one of those over zealous texans after spending 5 minutes on a message board telling people how against all of that I am then yes I would let them kill me. Jk jk.

  On 7/25/2014 at 5:14 AM, Candiru said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 11:29 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 11:22 PM, sheatheman said:

obviously, the imo is universally implied. but mo is right.

I'm still curious to hear what you would do if someone broke into your place with the intention of killing you.

 

Would you let him kill you because you are categorically anti-violence?

 

Is there any point at which you would fight back?

Well if it means using a gun and basically being one of those over zealous texans after spending 5 minutes on a message board telling people how against all of that I am then yes I would let them kill me. Jk jk.

 

lol

It reminds me of that old, somewhat-crude joke where the guy asks the girl if she would sleep with him for a billion dollars and she says yes and then he says "what about for $20?" and she says "What do you think I am, a prostitute?" and he says "we've already established that... now we're just negotiating the price."

There is a point where any reasonable person should approve of things like violence and torture (as in the 'ticking-bomb' scenario). Anyone who is categorically against these things is either being disingenous or simply hasn't thought enough about the matter.

IMO

(And this coming from someone who's as far left as is reasonably possible)

  On 7/25/2014 at 3:44 AM, joshuatx said:

NOBODY wants even fucking touch the fact that religion, not religious extremism, but just the core religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are the heart of the delusional, illogical, and immoral ideologies that perpetuate this conflict.

mostly agree with the rest of your post but no' on this here. I don't believe religion is at the root of the problem. it's a hugely aggravating factor, sure, but if you were able to magically remove it from the equation and turn both peoples completely secular overnight, the conflict would still continue because humans gonna human.

No, it's 100% religion. Religion created the culture and the peoplehow they've lived for 3000+ years. The post religion sentiments here represent such a small percent of people. Atheists/agnostics seem like bigger groups because they spend tons of time inflating their voice via reddit and adopt a highway.

<3

not sure what you're trying to say in the second half of your post there. so more people might be religious than nonreligious, ok. and it has indeed had a huge part to play in shaping the collective psyche over the years, yes. but it's not the sole determinant of human behaviour. religion guarantees nothing about whether a person behaves good or bad, ironically (this is actually my biggest problem with it, it's not the guarantee of morality and good behaviour that it purports to be). in objective terms, it's just another belief system among many, with actual behaviour being determined by a further array of influences, many of them more primal/biological.

supposing it is the sole cause of the problem, what could be done about it? trying to fully instill secularism, or any other belief system for that matter, is impossible. even if you somehow did scrub everyone's mind completely clean of religious beliefs, people tend to replace their old gods with new ones (leaders, political ideologies, racial ideologies, money, fame, whatever) and continue in the errors of their ways via some new pseudoreligious belief system. it's just human nature. I mean, China is secular and they're not exactly a paragon of good behaviour.

basically, trying to eliminate or encourage one belief system instead of another is never a guarantee that everyone will behave rationally and dispassionately and "good" at all times. there's no such guarantee in the world ever. because humans.

<3

  On 7/25/2014 at 5:35 AM, LimpyLoo said:

There is a point where any reasonable person should approve of things like violence and torture (as in the 'ticking-bomb' scenario). Anyone who is categorically against these things is either being disingenous or simply hasn't thought enough about the matter.

 

IMO

 

(And this coming from someone who's as far left as is reasonably possible)

The "ticking bomb" scenario is unrealistic and there is no guarantee that torture would be a solution to it.

Sorry that I really have nothing constructive to add on this matter. But the way I see it is two rival gangs fighting over street territory (albeit with full military arsenals) with innocent bystanders constantly falling victim to the crossfire. Hamas refuse to accept a cease-fire, yet the IDF keep taking lives by the hundreds with seemingly outright disregard for collateral damage, under the guise of self-defence. At least that's how I understand the conflict.

Which begs the rather naive question for the long run; is world peace possible?

  On 7/25/2014 at 7:23 AM, azatoth said:

 

  On 7/25/2014 at 5:35 AM, LimpyLoo said:

There is a point where any reasonable person should approve of things like violence and torture (as in the 'ticking-bomb' scenario). Anyone who is categorically against these things is either being disingenous or simply hasn't thought enough about the matter. IMO (And this coming from someone who's as far left as is reasonably possible)

The "ticking bomb" scenario is unrealistic and there is no guarantee that torture would be a solution to it.

Well that's a practical objection, not a moral one.

  On 7/24/2014 at 8:27 PM, Bread said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 6:15 PM, Bread said:

does eugene believe that Israelis have a divine, God given right to expand their settlements into Palestinian territories and pursue aggressive military action against Palestinians on behalf of their Jewish religion?

 

so is everyone gonna chime in now? yeah..

edit: if you didnt care about this conflict before,this is when you get to talk about it,we care

  On 7/25/2014 at 7:32 AM, ambermonk said:

Sorry that I really have nothing constructive to add on this matter. But the way I see it is two rival gangs fighting over street territory (albeit with full military arsenals) with innocent bystanders constantly falling victim to the crossfire. Hamas refuse to accept a cease-fire, yet the IDF keep taking lives by the hundreds with seemingly outright disregard for collateral damage, under the guise of self-defence. At least that's how I understand the conflict.

Which begs the rather naive question for the long run; is world peace possible?

I think if a few variables were tweaked, world peace would definitely be possible.

For instance, imagine if we--all the citizens of the world--were able to elect sane, reasonable, intelligent people into all our governments. If we could simply make it that far then we'd be well on our way.

  On 7/25/2014 at 6:17 AM, sheatheman said:

No, it's 100% religion. Religion created the culture and the peoplehow they've lived for 3000+ years. The post religion sentiments here represent such a small percent of people. Atheists/agnostics seem like bigger groups because they spend tons of time inflating their voice via reddit and adopt a highway.

<3

no. Netanyahu is not religious for example. Sharon was totally secular. this is not a religious conflict. your whole stance is totally ridiculous dude. this is a political conflict, the so called religious aspects are secondary.

  On 7/25/2014 at 8:20 AM, octopus said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 8:27 PM, Bread said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 6:15 PM, Bread said:

does eugene believe that Israelis have a divine, God given right to expand their settlements into Palestinian territories and pursue aggressive military action against Palestinians on behalf of their Jewish religion?

 

 

What I'd like to do is move everybody out of Israel and Palestine for a few months. Absolutely everybody, move them up into separate log cabins up in the mountains somewhere, where they can ski and sit by the fire and chill out for a bit. Then while they're away I'll get the Boys to come in with some bulldozers and level absolutely everything in Israel and Palestine. No buildings left, no historical religious or political context remaining. Just dig it all up and lay it back down fresh and plant the seeds of one enormous field. Once the grass is grown we'll have a nice, big, new field.

Then I'll move everybody back, spend a moment explaining that yeah, sure, all of it is gone and all the violence you based your lives around for so long may be gone now, but look on the up side: You've got a nice big field. And it's your field too! You can do whatever you like there, just enjoy the field. Maybe make a lemonade stand or something. Sorry I didn't tell you about the field plan in the first place but I was worried you wouldn't have gone along with it, like you actually enjoyed the violence or came to believe that was an important part of your life or something.

Obel for World President 2015.

  On 7/25/2014 at 9:09 AM, Obel said:

What I'd like to do is move everybody out of Israel and Palestine for a few months. Absolutely everybody, move them up into separate log cabins up in the mountains somewhere, where they can ski and sit by the fire and chill out for a bit. Then while they're away I'll get the Boys to come in with some bulldozers and level absolutely everything in Israel and Palestine. No buildings left, no historical religious or political context remaining. Just dig it all up and lay it back down fresh and plant the seeds of one enormous field. Once the grass is grown we'll have a nice, big, new field.

 

Then I'll move everybody back, spend a moment explaining that yeah, sure, all of it is gone and all the violence you based your lives around for so long may be gone now, but look on the up side: You've got a nice big field. And it's your field too! You can do whatever you like there, just enjoy the field. Maybe make a lemonade stand or something. Sorry I didn't tell you about the field plan in the first place but I was worried you wouldn't have gone along with it, like you actually enjoyed the violence or came to believe that was an important part of your life or something.

 

Obel for World President 2015.

People always be fighting over land. So my solution is to actively speed up global warming so that the polar ice caps melt and cover all the land. Therefore, no more land to fight over. To be honest I think some of you guys should feel stupid for not thinking of this already.

I mean, I've never seen Waterworld, but I can only assume there is no fighting in it.

  On 7/25/2014 at 3:07 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 7/25/2014 at 2:33 AM, hoggy said:

Then another question - since neither of these would likely end the conflict anyway, is there some way for Israel and the Palestinians to co-exist given their ideologies (no cheating here, you can't just say that one or the other should change their beliefs - that's a illegal move in the argument because it is never going to happen), and can the international community do anything to help this?

 

I reject the premise that changing their beliefs is "never going to happen" and thus the matter should be excluded from debate.

 

Disabusing people of crazy beliefs that cause them to act like maniacs should be pretty high on the To-Do List.

How do you do disabuse people of crazy beliefs then?

I, for one, am glad that this is happening far away from me

it's everyone's fault (other countries) because they got involved,

this problem should have been local decades ago, it certainly would have been solved with way less harms,

since it's international, foreign governments have interests somehow for this to continue, although they pretend they don't.

civilians die but who really genuinely cares ?

i hate this fucking world

  On 7/25/2014 at 8:49 AM, Bread said:

 

  On 7/25/2014 at 8:20 AM, octopus said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 8:27 PM, Bread said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 6:15 PM, Bread said:

does eugene believe that Israelis have a divine, God given right to expand their settlements into Palestinian territories and pursue aggressive military action against Palestinians on behalf of their Jewish religion?

 

 

 

i didn't reply because i didn't have any good enough deragatory superlatives in my vocabulary to describe this assumption about me.

  On 7/25/2014 at 1:47 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 7/25/2014 at 8:49 AM, Bread said:

 

  On 7/25/2014 at 8:20 AM, octopus said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 8:27 PM, Bread said:

 

  On 7/24/2014 at 6:15 PM, Bread said:

does eugene believe that Israelis have a divine, God given right to expand their settlements into Palestinian territories and pursue aggressive military action against Palestinians on behalf of their Jewish religion?

 

 

 

 

i didn't reply because i didn't have any good enough deragatory superlatives in my vocabulary to describe this assumption about me.

 

 

it's a simple question.