wtf is a person supposed to actually do about israel murdering hundreds of innocent civilians.

Oh man, well I hope they replace it with another blog post about dealing with being a chocoholic while your government commits genocide.

  On 8/5/2014 at 2:24 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 11:47 PM, Lane Visitor said:

anyone denying hamas' use of human shields is in absolute denial or they're simply not informed...

 

 

I don't think anyone is denying that Hamas (as well as the IDF) have used human shields, what intelligent people are disputing however is the claim that anytime a power plant, school, UN facility, ambulance or hospital is bombed by the IDF that it was because of a 'human shield'. You would have to be fairly moronic to believe that every time a target like this is destroyed. Especially when you take into consideration that the Bush administration even wrote a pre-emptive document from January of 2003 explaining how Saddam will use 'human shields' as a means to condition the public for the upcoming massive civilian casualties that would occur in Iraq. How else would the US population be ok with hundreds of thousands of civilians being murdered? Easy, just say that the enemy purposefully launches attacks from densely populated areas or that they intentionally try to 'blend in with civilians', or hey lets just say that the 'enemy' loves death, that works right?

 

While there is truth to propaganda, the 'human shield' claim has been used for over 60 years as a means to dehumanize an enemy force

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's an age old tactic of dehumanizing the 'enemy'. the underlying message, only 'they' do that. aka Americans and Israeli forces would never do such a horrible inhumane thing

 

 

wow lol really! i didn't know this

  On 8/4/2014 at 10:23 PM, sheatheman said:

Rather, Hamas is using a cornered, desperate, frenzied people as their platform.

well, yes. though they're not all as rabid as others would have you believe.

  On 8/5/2014 at 1:16 AM, sheatheman said:

Please explain how we can dismiss his testimony?

I don't know what his testimony really consists of because I don't know who he is and I haven't watched that clip. but thanks for pre-emptively placing me on one side of the debate because I supposedly want to see Israel razed, her people annihilated and her children sold into slavery

  On 8/5/2014 at 2:24 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 11:47 PM, Lane Visitor said:

anyone denying hamas' use of human shields is in absolute denial or they're simply not informed...

I don't think anyone is denying that Hamas (as well as the IDF) have used human shields, what intelligent people are disputing however is the claim that anytime a power plant, school, UN facility, ambulance or hospital is bombed by the IDF that it was because of a 'human shield'.

 

yes. good facts there about this point historically being used to dehumanise an enemy.

  On 8/5/2014 at 3:36 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 10:23 PM, sheatheman said:

Rather, Hamas is using a cornered, desperate, frenzied people as their platform.

 

well, yes. though they're not all as rabid as others would have you believe.

 

  On 8/5/2014 at 1:16 AM, sheatheman said:

Please explain how we can dismiss his testimony?

 

I don't know what his testimony really consists of because I don't know who he is and I haven't watched that clip. but thanks for pre-emptively placing me on one side of the debate because I supposedly want to see Israel razed, her people annihilated and her children sold into slavery

 

  On 8/5/2014 at 2:24 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 11:47 PM, Lane Visitor said:

anyone denying hamas' use of human shields is in absolute denial or they're simply not informed...

 

I don't think anyone is denying that Hamas (as well as the IDF) have used human shields, what intelligent people are disputing however is the claim that anytime a power plant, school, UN facility, ambulance or hospital is bombed by the IDF that it was because of a 'human shield'.

yes. good facts there about this point historically being used to dehumanise an enemy.

nice post robbie. it's a strange thing to see people just throwing around the "human shield" thing without ever bothering to investigate the specific claims. what I mean is, when you read the papers and you see that israel bombed a school, blew up a city block, a mosque, etc do you actually try to investigate the specific situation? I'd be willing to bet that you don't at all. it's simply enough for you to believe what israel says (like eugene) and look at some youtubes + "Hamas charter" and henceforth you never give a fuck when innocent civilians are killed. bc there are no innocents, they're all Arabs and shields and whatnot.

I'm also curious, are you outraged that israel has used human shields? or again is this just the example of a few rogue fanatics which can't be compared to how all Palestinians want the Jews to die?

it's pretty amazing that no matter how many corpses pile up as a result of Israeli bombs, no matter how many human rights reports pile up documenting this slaughter (the goldstone report being pretty major here), some people are just content to mention "rockets," "human shields," "terror tunnels," and never bat a fucking eye at these massacres. it's incredible. israel doesn't *try* to kill innocents....they're just really good at accidentally doing it.

I'm bouncing from this thread at this point. it's really discouraging. special thanks to usagi for keeping it very real.

If I was staging a guerilla war against an enemy that far outclassed me you can bet that I would be trying to operate as much as possible around areas that they would be hesitant to attack for humanitarian reasons or because of fear of generating public outrage.

For what reason do you think they are bombing schools? Because they are monsters that want to kill refugees? lol. Does it just come down to which group more deserves de-humanizing in your eyes? It just seems petty to me to pick a side in a conflict which is enforced by groups of people that harbour a rage informed by generations of trauma and loss.

Both sides are basically just a bunch of assholes that once were people but have lived in fear and loss for too long. That whole area now is just an asshole factory as far as I see it. The whole of Israel/Palestine should just be irridiated to the point that anyone who wishes to live there would disintegrate as soon as they are near it.

  On 8/5/2014 at 4:02 AM, Alcofribas said:

 

what I mean is, when you read the papers and you see that israel bombed a school, blew up a city block, a mosque, etc do you actually try to investigate the specific situation? I'd be willing to bet that you don't at all. it's simply enough for you to believe what israel says (like eugene) and look at some youtubes + "Hamas charter" and henceforth you never give a fuck when innocent civilians are killed. bc there are no innocents, they're all Arabs and shields and whatnot.

 

isn't it really the opposite? who of israeli critics actually gets into the details of every particular incident besides relying on just headlines ?

  On 8/4/2014 at 7:25 PM, Rubin Farr said:

They have raised the ire of Anonymous...

 

http://www.digitaljournal.com/internet/anonymous-targets-brings-down-israeli-secret-service-website/article/394457

Religious extremism is responsible for some pretty crazy ish.. Ppl seem to forget that hamas is a self-identified islamist group that uses terror tactics to meet their goals, and like their colleagues islamic jihad, isis, al qaeda, etc will do whatever it takes to reach their goal of an all-islamic region. Its not b/c israel is oppressing them, its cuz israel is an infidel to them. Thats the bottom line. Until ppl see that, this conflict is bound to have endless bloodshed. You cant make peace with terrorists. I know everyone here is looking at small details through a magnifying glass, trying to connect pieces using all kinds of context and metaphors and historical tidbits, but sometimes ya gotta look at the general picture. And sometimes mainstream media is not a conspiracy, jeez. Just look at the profile of the leaderships, nothing else ... PA- islamic extremist-run leadership openly using terror tactics and its head ppl spouting calls for genocide.. vs Israel, a nation with a complex society and leadership with diversity of race, ideals , religion, schools of thought , politics , etc calling for peace and fighting a defensive war, following ceasefires while the other side doesnt, doing its best to avoid casualties like any other military would. It speaks volumes.

I dont know about the human shield research ppl may have done but none of those newspaper clippings address this situation. So what? Every war is unique and no one is saying eeevery civilian death is hamas' human sheilds, thats absurd... Of course its densley populated, but im pretty darn sure hamas isnt exactly making it easy for israel to not kill civilians. hamas' charter speaks for itself... Killing and exploiting their civilians for their goals, theyre quite known for that.. Why ppl ignore hamas' charter and their philosophy is beyond me... If you cant fill in the blanks of deciphering and trying to prove or disprove human shields and whose intent is about killing off the other, the reading manual is there. Just look at the leadership's goals. Its like you guys are trying to figure out how to wear a mousetrap as a bracelet, explaining away in regards to why its painful, cuz its a mousetrap!

I dont really have much more to say in this thread ... Except praying 4 peace for everyone, and that maybe hamas will finally respect the ceasefires to ease the current conflict... Oops guess not, looks like they just broke it again in an offensive attack. Over n out ya'll

but lane... dont you get it? other people have used the phrase 'human shield' before in the past. examples have been given. this proves that people using human shields is not a valid point of criticism against them.

  On 8/5/2014 at 8:23 AM, MisterE said:

but lane... dont you get it? other people have used the phrase 'human shield' before in the past. examples have been given. this proves that people using human shields is not a valid point of criticism against them.

Oh yes exactly

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152339105493717

I would rather listen to her than one of those RT whores.

  On 8/5/2014 at 3:36 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 8/5/2014 at 1:16 AM, sheatheman said:

Please explain how we can dismiss his testimony?

I don't know what his testimony really consists of because I don't know who he is and I haven't watched that clip. but thanks for pre-emptively placing me on one side of the debate because I supposedly want to see Israel razed, her people annihilated and her children sold into slavery

 

haha what?

all i'm saying is i think Yousef, the son of one of the founders of Hamas, might be a good authority on Hamas's tactics. i guess you would need to watch the clip to know that i wasn't placing you on any side of the debate.

~

i have to remind myself that many of the people here that are against Israel are also 911 truthers, so...

  On 8/5/2014 at 2:24 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

hey lets just say that the 'enemy' loves death, that works right?

oh, but they do:

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

  Quote

Disgustingly off topic, misplaced, borderline criminal.

Saying "old testament" brings the context of Christianity in, which this thread is not capable of discussing.

If you are talking about the OT as the Torah, then that alleviates things somewhat, but is still not productive, because I could pretty quickly quell that. Martyrdom as it exists in Islam exists only in Islam.

Let's examine Deuteronomy 13, part of the old testament.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, Let us go and worship other gods (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors 18 because you obey the Lord your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

Footnotes:

Deuteronomy 13:1 In Hebrew texts 13:1-18 is numbered 13:2-19.

Deuteronomy 13:15 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the Lord, often by totally destroying them.

Deuteronomy 13:17 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the Lord, often by totally destroying them.

Oh. Right. Sorry guys.

You really ought not refer to it as the Old Testament in this context.

I'm not going to get into it, but you can surely see, even on a layman's reading, that those passages from Deuteronomy are very different from the passages I quoted from the Quran. One is about killing to purify, not out of selfishness. The other is about killing for the reward of paradise. The latter concept does not exist in Judaism or Christianity, but it does in Islam.

It's all killing because of fairytales to me, whatever the grand prize might be.

Doesn't matter what it is to you, but what it is to those who believe it.

A deece excuse to kill people

Imagine a world without religious dogmatism...

Then you can have your fucking paradise, and you won't have to kill people or yourself for it.

Imagine a world where no one believes anything.

  On 8/5/2014 at 9:06 PM, sheatheman said:

Imagine a world where no one believes anything.