wtf is a person supposed to actually do about israel murdering hundreds of innocent civilians.

  On 8/9/2014 at 4:48 AM, kaini said:

 

  On 8/9/2014 at 4:01 AM, eugene said:

if you don't want to actually address my points instead of spewing this childish and bombastic rhetoric then i think you better fuck off.

i'll debate with you in a rational manner when your "defense forces" stops killing children. deal?

 

do you know any conflict/operation/war of similar manner where no children were killed ?

  On 8/9/2014 at 4:51 AM, kaini said:

 

  On 8/9/2014 at 4:21 AM, Lane Visitor said:

I feel more like its more accurate to say that eugene is one of the few on this thread that's not overtly biased against the israeli govt, as many ppl in here are coming at the situation already with pre loaded notions that the idf is blood thirsty. With that line of thought, intelligent debate is impossible. Forcing Eugene to try to prove that his government is not some maniacal ruthless racist evil regime and that its intentions are in fact good is setting him up for an impossible pursuit. I kinda feel like many ppl in here will never give the israeli government the benefit of the doubt in ANY situation, and to be skeptical to such an extent, rather than the typical healthy question-your-government bells n whistles method is off the beaten path of intellectual debate. In other words, if you guys already believe that israeli govt is permanently inheritantly and consistently evil , than wth is the point of this thread? Discourse is what politics and conflicts are about.

i am fully cognisant that the situation is more complex than 'israel is satan, palestine is good'. i come from a country where paramilitary organisations have been knocking the everloving shit out of each other for eighty years. i also see where that got us.

 

these days, things are better. you know what got us to that point? compromise, debate, political process. not bulldozers.

Fair enough & agree in most cases... But what do you debate with hamas about? "Please, look we'll lift the blockade and wall if you just pleeeease pretty please promise not to anihilate our people as its written in your charter as your mission and which you openly preach in your mosques? "

Wheres the incentive to trust that? Like if one of us were running the israeli govt, would we just kinda "feel it out" and go with our heart that maaayybe just maybe they actuaaly DONT want to wipe us out even though all signs point to it and they admit and call for it? Like whaat theee?

Like really, if you were a black man in the south way back when, would you stare at a klansman's eyes, and say "fuck. Ya know what... Maybe.. Just maaybe.. At the end of the day, you dont really wanna lynch me. If i just stopped being those things you say about me. If i bring my guard down a bit, and if we just talk over a beer, maaybe things would be different." Lol not saying thats impossible in a hypothetical universe, bit if it were, that klansman would have to be a pretty spineless wishy washy member whose easily influenced by beer and some bro talking. And uhh, although i believe most ppl have good intentions at heart, im kinda betting my hand on the more likely reality that most extremist/militants are uhh, yeah, not really gonna budge over some talking, sorry... Given the history of their actions.

Does lane visitor have a dog in this fight?

Eugene is the only one who does.

  On 8/9/2014 at 5:19 AM, roasty said:

Does lane visitor have a dog in this fight?

  On 8/9/2014 at 5:11 AM, Lane Visitor said:

 

  On 8/9/2014 at 4:51 AM, kaini said:

 

  On 8/9/2014 at 4:21 AM, Lane Visitor said:

I feel more like its more accurate to say that eugene is one of the few on this thread that's not overtly biased against the israeli govt, as many ppl in here are coming at the situation already with pre loaded notions that the idf is blood thirsty. With that line of thought, intelligent debate is impossible. Forcing Eugene to try to prove that his government is not some maniacal ruthless racist evil regime and that its intentions are in fact good is setting him up for an impossible pursuit. I kinda feel like many ppl in here will never give the israeli government the benefit of the doubt in ANY situation, and to be skeptical to such an extent, rather than the typical healthy question-your-government bells n whistles method is off the beaten path of intellectual debate. In other words, if you guys already believe that israeli govt is permanently inheritantly and consistently evil , than wth is the point of this thread? Discourse is what politics and conflicts are about.

i am fully cognisant that the situation is more complex than 'israel is satan, palestine is good'. i come from a country where paramilitary organisations have been knocking the everloving shit out of each other for eighty years. i also see where that got us.

 

these days, things are better. you know what got us to that point? compromise, debate, political process. not bulldozers.

 

Fair enough & agree in most cases... But what do you debate with hamas about? "Please, look we'll lift the blockade and wall if you just pleeeease pretty please promise not to anihilate our people as its written in your charter as your mission and which you openly preach in your mosques? "

 

Wheres the incentive to trust that? Like if one of us were running the israeli govt, would we just kinda "feel it out" and go with our heart that maaayybe just maybe they actuaaly DONT want to wipe us out even though all signs point to it and they admit and call for it? Like whaat theee?

 

Like really, if you were a black man in the south way back when, would you stare at a klansman's eyes, and say "fuck. Ya know what... Maybe.. Just maaybe.. At the end of the day, you dont really wanna lynch me. If i just stopped being those things you say about me. If i bring my guard down a bit, and if we just talk over a beer, maaybe things would be different." Lol not saying thats impossible in a hypothetical universe, bit if it were, that klansman would have to be a pretty spineless wishy washy member whose easily influenced by beer and some bro talking. And uhh, although i believe most ppl have good intentions at heart, im kinda betting my hand on the more likely reality that most extremist/militants are uhh, yeah, not really gonna budge over some talking, sorry... Given the history of their actions.

 

this is an excellent post and manages to capture a lot of the complexity of the situation.

i'm going to go full disclosure and say that i feel a lot of empathy for palestine, as many irish people do. it's a situation that strikes a chord for a lot of people here.

most people do have good intentions. i'm sure that eugene feels that his country are doing the right thing.

it's like being an autechre fan. we're like 'oh shit, this bit of glitchy noise is incredible', and everyone else is like 'wtf is this noise'. i don't blame eugene, because i'm not eugene and i can't see things from his perspective.

but from my perspective, and i may be wrong, but i doubt i am, his countrymen are murdering children. i'm pretty sure some stray hamas rockets are doing the same, but from my perspective, and I MAY BE WRONG BUT I DOUBT IT BECAUSE OVERRIDING PUBLIC OPINION, israel are child-murderers... more so?

i have a kid, and he's at that age where he gets caught up in idealism - his ideas and his peer group are the most important things in the world to him. eugene, can you guarantee that he wouldn't be killed by a rocket if he chooses to take that wonderful, naive idealism into a more concrete state? and if you had a kid, what would you feel?

The difference is, if you gave a Palestinian child to a group of Israeli's, they would not cut off its head. Can you see the difference, kaini?

  On 8/9/2014 at 5:57 AM, sheatheman said:

The difference is, if you gave a Palestinian child to a group of Israeli's, they would not cut off its head. Can you see the difference, kaini?

sheathe, you've been known to make good points. do you really think hyperbole is what i/p discussion needs?

i think very few palestinians, if given an israeli kid, would cut off the head.

what you could say, is that while israeli leaders have stated willingness to live alongside a palestinian state, hamas leaders have very recenty stated that they have no interest in living alongside israel.

  On 8/9/2014 at 5:57 AM, sheatheman said:

The difference is, if you gave a Palestinian child to a group of Israeli's, they would not cut off its head. Can you see the difference, kaini?

well, you took my hyperbole to prove a point, and fired it up a notch, fair play.

we are human beings. all of us. none of us will do that under normal circumstances. we are experiencing abnormal circumstances, and people will do this, apparently.

no, i can't see the difference. when i see a child dead, it could be my child. i don't give a fuck beyond that. it's a life lost.

I agree.

We do all have different perspectives and loyalties and i do believe that most of them are coming from good intentions and places.

It is a complex situation without a doubt.

Idealism is a great thing... Unfortunately many of us lose that after growing up and we stick to our guns, literally and figuratively.

I personally have a very strong belief when it comes to "intent" when i see any conflict. Im not philosopher but i will say that i feel that ppl underestimate intent in war/conflicts.

Lets just say, for a moment, that there were no actions in a hypothetical vacuum... Two state actors with zero actions so far. All we have about these two actors is their mission, their intent.. Fuck it, we dont even have that... We have their. ADMITTED beliefs/intent. Maybe we dont actually know what their true intent is, just what they display.. Either way...

State A & State B.

State A's proclaimed intent: "Destroy State B."

State B's proclaimed intent: "Defend itself from State A."

These proclaimed intents, though not the full picture due the missing "action" serves as a very telling piece of information, and though action cannot be analyzed, just ill will and evil intent speaks volumes about a given scenario.

And, most importantly, i think that in scenarios like the israeli/palestinian conflict at the times where the measurements of action can sometimes result in a blurred mess of political discourse that requires the heavy complicated pursuit of pulling apart webs of history, these exercises can come in handy. Most passionate debaters in any topic are sympathetic to one side, and as a result, construct one's case from the buildings blocks of their pre-loaded loyalty... And we all do this with all kinds of scenarios. In times like these, looking at purpose and intent can speak volumes about the nature of the conflict.

Note: i often feel like people overlook intent for the sole fact that it's so basic they it becomes almost irrelevant to them. As soon as you say good/bad, it becomes a cartoon in their mind, and they dont want to deal with the dogma that comes along with morality on a cut and dry basis. It starts to resemble a simpleton antagonist/protagonist hollywood scenario, and intellectual people dont like to reduce complex world conflicts down to a cartoon, and theyre mostly right for it... Mostly. But looking at intent can reveal a striking display of many things that people may not want to hear/believe. And sometimes even when intent is spelled out before their very eyes, theyre still explaining away. Why? They refuse to believe something because it's so shocking? Does their loyalty clout their basic vision? Or is that we as humans are so reactionary to results that intent doesnt matter anymore? Is it that intent is not sell-able through the media? But what if actions and results were tied to intent in a way that only intent could explain the actions? Would people still ignore intent, because it's not visceral? I think we are often a society of shock factor, and action and results can be so potent that we immediately make up our minds on actions and results alone without bothering to look into reason and intent.

  On 8/9/2014 at 5:19 AM, roasty said:

Does lane visitor have a dog in this fight?

lol

"In Gaza City, health officials said Randa Nemer, 19, had been killed and 45 others wounded by the mass firing of gunshots skyward as many residents rushed to celebrate [the hamas declared victory]."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/27/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-strip-conflict.html

Yesterday, Israeli soldiers shot dead a 15-year-old boy, Hassan Khaled Manasra, and deliberately ran over his 13-year-old cousin, Ahmed Manasra (pictured) in East Jerusalem. Settlers surrounded Ahmed, shouting 'Die' and cursing him, while an Israeli ambulance stood by as he bled.

Hours earlier, Israeli forces had shot dead 18-year-old Mostafa al-Khateeb.

A 17-year-old schoolgirl, Marah al-Bakri, was also shot several times outside her school in East Jerusalem by Israeli forces yesterday.

http://www.imemc.org/article/73371

this shit is absolutely vicious.

it's pretty disturbing what kind of news outlets do you get your information from that forgot to convey that that pair of teenagers stabbed a jewish boy riding a bike in the throat and wounded another person before getting shot/rammed themselves in order to stop their rampage.

that is indeed disturbing and interesting man, this has been floating round a wide variety of outlets and i havent heard a whisper of it, wheres your sources for that info?

because there is literally not a whisper of that information for the first 5 pages of google searching the victims name, i just spent 10 minutes checking.

the actual victims' names weren't published afaik, just google "teens", "stab" and "israel" in google for last week. arabic and palesitnian sources often have trouble separating propaganda and news. since the beginning of the month 7 israelis were killed in this wave of attacks and many wounded.

disgusting man. 2300 palestinian confirmed dead last year, 17,000 injured. videos coming up online on a very, very regular basis on my feed of palestinian children being shot by israeli police/soldiers, many videos of israeli civilians jeering and laughing at their bleeding, broken bodies, they pop up nearly every day. honestly if what you are saying is true, and israel is an innocent victim of terrible and aggressive PR manipulation, it would be the most insanely impressive distortion of visual media ive ever heard of in my life. the authorities in the country you live in are truly vile.

bon chance messy.

your feed is full of idiots like yourself i guess. but anyway i'm not talking about the whole year but a more recent sparkoff that started with the execution of an israeli couple in front of their 4 children on the 1st of october, since then there's been a stabbing almost every day, and the people portrayed as victims in your feed are mostly the attackers.

oh dear lord eugy, after all these years, you're still banging away.

And yes, messy, israelis have really ramped up the random executions haven't they. Using this thing in syria makes them believe that they've got free reign to misbehave, been liberated whilst the world's eyes are elsewhere. All the crimes are being tallied still though, and when the chickens come home to roost, i wonder what percentage of that population will end up in prison for war crimes, be chased to the ends of the earth into their old age for their spur of the moment self righteous violence. Everything is on video now and saved on countless harddrives across the planet, we know who you are there will be no escape. So play nice.

i don't know wtf are you talking about, you're too stupid and incoherent so please ban yourself and never communicate with people again.

btw messiaen, if you're into snuff you'll really like that one from today. a palestinian terrorist rams two ultraorthodox jews (know for their anti-zionist views), then gets out of the car and start butchering them with what looks like an actual cleaver before getting shot by nearby security guard.

https://www.facebook.com/scoops.rotter.net/videos/vb.568855026497356/878221302227392/?type=2&theater