Bill Cosby is a big old rapist (on the loose)

  On 10/29/2014 at 3:47 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 10/29/2014 at 2:08 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 10/29/2014 at 1:00 AM, Zeffolia said:

Good that you added allegedly

 

He's rich and women have motivation to falsely accuse him, either to extract money from him or for attention.

 

Umm lol...i forgot WATMM had an MRA subset.

 

p.s. You forgot to play the 'rape-allegations-can-just-be-dismissed-as-buyer's-remorse' card

 

 

Calling something a "card", whatever that is, does not mean it's false in all cases.

 

but what if I call it a "false card"

  On 10/29/2014 at 5:10 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 10/29/2014 at 3:47 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 10/29/2014 at 2:08 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 10/29/2014 at 1:00 AM, Zeffolia said:

Good that you added allegedly

 

He's rich and women have motivation to falsely accuse him, either to extract money from him or for attention.

 

Umm lol...i forgot WATMM had an MRA subset.

 

p.s. You forgot to play the 'rape-allegations-can-just-be-dismissed-as-buyer's-remorse' card

 

 

Calling something a "card", whatever that is, does not mean it's false in all cases.

 

 

but what if I call it a "false card"

 

Shit, then u win

  On 10/29/2014 at 3:45 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 10/29/2014 at 2:40 AM, Root5 said:

These situations always make me feel terrible.

 

Either a one person was sexually assaulted and unable to prove her case, or a different person was falsely accused.

 

Sexual assault is famously difficult to prove, and the victims who speak up get blamed or have their characters attacked by the perp and his fans.

 

False sexual assault accusations can haunt a man, even when he is exonerated and there is no evidence. Even sometimes when the accuser admits that it was a lie.

 

It's just a terrible situation both ways.

This is the issue

 

People claim rape is downplayed by the media but it's the one place where a man's life can be completely ruined due to an admittedly false accusation

 

-Woman accuses a man of raping her when he didn't

=> Man's wife leaves him

=> Man forced to resign from his position (if it's political or at all a high profile position)

=> Man forced to endure ridicule in the media (if he's a famous person) and have his reputation ruined

 

Then the woman comes and says "I was wrong he didn't rape me I just wanted an excuse for my boyfriend"

 

And the media goes silent or says "Well I bet he raped other people too so fuck him"

 

Name ONE other crime that results in similar consequences for the falsely accused.

 

Edit: Oh yeah and it's completely gender biased. What happens when women rape men? Or even young boys? Oh yeah, teenagers get forced to pay child support for their rapist's baby.

 

I'd like to encourage you to use a little less zeal in sticking up for the accused.

The issue of unprovable rape accusations is a situation where a lot of assholes spout a lot of bullshit, and it inevitably turns into some kind of war of the sexes. "Man have it worse", "Are you kidding me?! Women have it way worse overall." Etc. I'm not saying you're doing that. I'm just saying it helps to qualify what you're saying in the greater context, in sensitive situations like that.

Being falsely accused of rape is a horrible thing to happen to someone (usually a man, but I have no reason to think this only affects men). But if you focus only on that element of the situation, it makes it seem like you're only sticking up for your own kind (men), and turning a blind eye to the other elements of the situation (lots of people are victims of rape, and that's no good either).

On another note, if anyone doubts that false rape accusations occur, or that they are damaging, check this out: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html

He wasn't overzealous... false accusations are a serious problem and our societal prejudices encourage them.

I agree, my zeal is well founded - we go by the principle of innocent until proven guilty (in all moderately civilized countries) yet this seems to be the one area where that is ignored. And why? To avoid people not coming out apparently

Completely unreasonable given that if this existence of false accusations were acknowledged and more thoroughly understood by courts and the media, women with legitimate strong cases that they were raped would most likely actually be more trusted than before given the fact that the false accusations are more often accounted for and easily differentiable from the real accusations.

The lack of acknowledgement for the provably false cases leads to disease in the minds of those aware of it and a general lack of trust in accusations due to the nagging feeling of "Hey maybe this is the same as when my fucking friend got accused and went to jail for 5 years then she confessed it was fake"

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

-Blackstone

All civilized courts are founded on this principle, let's apply it to rape accusations too.

And lets apply it in both ways: "innocent suffer" could also aply to the victim.

Apart from the false accusations it's also well known sexual harassment is a big problem. Whether the victim is a man, woman, kid or even an animal.

It's not meant to be funny, but the curious thing is that any animate object could be victim of some sort of sexual crime. And many havy experienced it in one way or another.

On the Cosby thing: I haven't read all of it, but the first thing I'm wondering is why these women haven't gone to court. And instead they made a book. Imo, it's not about the media creating false frames or ignoring the issue. It's about the judicial system doing its job. And if the hasn't been an official case in a court somewhere (at least, i havent seen there was one), but a book has been written instead.... Well, yeah, that smells like a load of bullshit..

  On 10/29/2014 at 6:08 AM, Zeffolia said:

I agree, my zeal is well founded - we go by the principle of innocent until proven guilty (in all moderately civilized countries) yet this seems to be the one area where that is ignored. And why? To avoid people not coming out apparently

I think you'll be able to have more productive conversation/convince more people that it's a serious problem if you dial it back a bit.

For example, you talked about the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" in criminal courts. As far as I know, that principle still applies to cases of sexual assault in criminal courts in all of the western world (correct me if I'm wrong). There are situations where that principle doesn't apply, like university tribunals and civil courts, but they don't selectively target sexual assault cases. They operate on the balance of probabilities for all situations. So, legally, I don't think sexual assault cases are being judged at an unfair standard.

Of course, there are cases where people are falsely convicted, but I doubt there's evidence that false convictions are more likely in cases of sexual assault than, say, murder.

In the court of public opinion, I've been pretty appalled by how some circles rush to judgement, or will even openly advocate convicting the accused without trial. But keep in mind that these are click bait journalists, silly undergraduates, and extremist feminists. This isn't seriously discussed in law-making, for example.

  On 10/29/2014 at 12:44 AM, Abstract Daddy said:

Wasn't there a flash game made about this years ago?

Fuck yeah Bill Cosby's Fun Game. beat folks to death with your camera and dump them in a cave. still love it today.

I forgot he has the balls to call himself a "doctor"

It been well documented how men have abused their power within the entertainment industry in the UK. We know this can happen, we also know that paedophiles (not suggesting he is a paedophile but this the same type of behaviour happens with all abusers), put themselves in a position whereby no one will believe the victim because "everyone loves '...'.. He would never do that!".

I don't know whether or not he has done this, but to just blow the whole thing off because 'women are after the money' is a very naive view of the world.

  On 10/29/2014 at 10:42 AM, rixxx said:

It been well documented how men have abused their power within the entertainment industry in the UK. We know this can happen, we also know that paedophiles (not suggesting he is a paedophile but this the same type of behaviour happens with all abusers), put themselves in a position whereby no one will believe the victim because "everyone loves '...'.. He would never do that!".

 

 

I don't know whether or not he has done this, but to just blow the whole thing off because 'women are after the money' is a very naive view of the world.

i agree

  On 10/29/2014 at 7:14 AM, Root5 said:

 

  On 10/29/2014 at 6:08 AM, Zeffolia said:

I agree, my zeal is well founded - we go by the principle of innocent until proven guilty (in all moderately civilized countries) yet this seems to be the one area where that is ignored. And why? To avoid people not coming out apparently

 

 

I think you'll be able to have more productive conversation/convince more people that it's a serious problem if you dial it back a bit.

 

For example, you talked about the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" in criminal courts. As far as I know, that principle still applies to cases of sexual assault in criminal courts in all of the western world (correct me if I'm wrong). There are situations where that principle doesn't apply, like university tribunals and civil courts, but they don't selectively target sexual assault cases. They operate on the balance of probabilities for all situations. So, legally, I don't think sexual assault cases are being judged at an unfair standard.

 

Of course, there are cases where people are falsely convicted, but I doubt there's evidence that false convictions are more likely in cases of sexual assault than, say, murder.

 

In the court of public opinion, I've been pretty appalled by how some circles rush to judgement, or will even openly advocate convicting the accused without trial. But keep in mind that these are click bait journalists, silly undergraduates, and extremist feminists. This isn't seriously discussed in law-making, for example.

 

For those that don't know, Zeffolia has form for posting opinions of stunning ignorance when it comes to 'gender issues'

See:

http://forum.watmm.com/topic/78490-a-civilized-discussion-on-gender-issues/

Oh right, I remember that now. Didn't realize that was the same person...

Hilarious how people ignore anything written with a slightly offputting tone even though the arguments themselves are well founded in fact

Who gives a fuck about tone, address the arguments not the arguer.

It literally does not matter at all what other threads I have made or what my personal opinions on the topic are - all that matters is the evidence/arguments presented. View each post made by everyone in a discussion as anonymous and unrelated to all other posts or you are implicitly ad hominem'ing

Zeff, you know that's not how people work. Just accept that tone etc matters and that people have a memory of past things said. Facts of life dude.

oh and remember when Zeff got suspended for calling the Obamas "fucking n*ggers"?

(It was the Obamas, right? I want to keep the record straight on this one)

if you are a complete idiot, people will take that into account the next time you say something.

and show forgiveness and praise the Lord

*amen*

speaking on a general term of 70's tv presenters being slimy pervs, rolf harris's court defence of grooming 15 year old girls and giving them extended cuddles, patting their arses etc as just being 'just something we did back then' was pretty funny. in a dark way.

From the 'gender issues' thread

  On 10/29/2014 at 4:13 PM, Zeffolia said:

 

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

so Zeff, I don't have faith in your thoughts on rape

He was joking/sarcastic?

nope

benefit of the doubt?

o, and also: show forgiveness when people say stupid stuff. (people tend to say stupid stuff most of the time... )

  On 10/29/2014 at 6:24 PM, goDel said:

benefit of the doubt?

 

o, and also: show forgiveness when people say stupid stuff. (people tend to say stupid stuff most of the time... )

yeah i know

Zeff's cool...if I ran into him on the street I'd buy him a Mr. Pibb

(unless of course he's a Dr. Pepper drinker in which case he is irredeemable in my eyes)

edit: full dislosure...i drink Dr. Pepper when I can't find Mr. Pibb

  On 10/29/2014 at 6:17 PM, LimpyLoo said:

From the 'gender issues' thread

 

 

 

  On 10/29/2014 at 4:13 PM, Zeffolia said:

 

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

 

so Zeff, I don't have faith in your thoughts on rape

  On 10/29/2014 at 6:21 PM, goDel said:

He was joking/sarcastic?

  On 10/29/2014 at 6:22 PM, LimpyLoo said:

nope

  On 10/29/2014 at 6:24 PM, goDel said:

benefit of the doubt?

 

o, and also: show forgiveness when people say stupid stuff. (people tend to say stupid stuff most of the time... )

Prison rape