How does the World view America these days?

  On 6/14/2016 at 3:31 AM, Alcofribas said:

you totally nailed it man. thanks for the thought provoking insight.

  On 6/14/2016 at 3:43 AM, Alcofribas said:

 

  On 6/14/2016 at 3:37 AM, doublename said:

This is why no one wanted to start a thread.

yeah, i think we can move on to something else already lol.

 

yeah, best to stick our heads in the sand and pretend like everything is alright again.

i'm still surprised Obama didn't solve everything

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-a-regular-at-nightclub

Unexpected turn of events, maybe he was closeted, and the conflict that created was enough to push him over the edge? Of course it's also possible he'd been planning something for a long time and was just casing the place out.

  On 6/14/2016 at 11:55 AM, caze said:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-a-regular-at-nightclub

 

Unexpected turn of events, maybe he was closeted, and the conflict that created was enough to push him over the edge? Of course it's also possible he'd been planning something for a long time and was just casing the place out.

A bit of both. There was a local morning talk radio show I listen to that predicted this yesterday, albeit rather off-hand and they didn't really push it hard as a theory, but they nonetheless said it was a potential aspect. Apparently he'd been frequenting gay clubs as long as 10 years ago.

I wonder if he thought he was infiltrating the place like Feds in a dubious mosque.

  On 6/14/2016 at 11:21 AM, caze said:

 

  On 6/14/2016 at 3:31 AM, Alcofribas said:

you totally nailed it man. thanks for the thought provoking insight.

it was actually.

  On 6/14/2016 at 3:43 AM, Alcofribas said:

 

  On 6/14/2016 at 3:37 AM, doublename said:

This is why no one wanted to start a thread.

yeah, i think we can move on to something else already lol.

yeah, best to stick our heads in the sand and pretend like everything is alright again.

 

lol

a mosque said death to homosexuals. shooter's father said it's god's job to punish homosexuals. you're right man. slam fucking dunk. case closed. i'm glad the penetrating minds of watmm have seen through the haze of delusion and cut to the heart of the matter. those two "facts" prove it: we must finally be willing to admit that this is bc islam.

so i'm ready to take my head out of the sand and speak out against islam, to unite my voice with the tiny minority of those sounds brave enough to tell it like it is, to go against the grain, to wake up and to refuse to let the pro-muslim, reverse racist, regressive left, sheeple, clash of civilizations, mother load of bad ideas, culture war, primitive, religion of "peace" lol, sjw.

i'm glad we solved it.

or maybe it's not a black or white issue

jk

edit: black or white in the metaphorical sense (also literal)

I can't see the US from here

  On 6/14/2016 at 12:48 PM, Alcofribas said:

lol

a mosque said death to homosexuals. shooter's father said it's god's job to punish homosexuals. you're right man. slam fucking dunk. case closed. i'm glad the penetrating minds of watmm have seen through the haze of delusion and cut to the heart of the matter. those two "facts" prove it: we must finally be willing to admit that this is bc islam.

 

so i'm ready to take my head out of the sand and speak out against islam, to unite my voice with the tiny minority of those sounds brave enough to tell it like it is, to go against the grain, to wake up and to refuse to let the pro-muslim, reverse racist, regressive left, sheeple, clash of civilizations, mother load of bad ideas, culture war, primitive, religion of "peace" lol, sjw.

 

i'm glad we solved it.

 

if you don't think this has anything to do with religiously mandated homophobia, then you're seriously deluding yourself.

that doesn't mean it's the only thing that's relevant, if the US didn't have a retarded 2nd amendment this wouldn't have happened either, and you could find lots of other things that have various levels of impact on events like this occurring (whether we're talking about terrorism or crazy-person gun massacres in general).

but none of that gives ideological motivations a free pass.

it's interesting to contrast this to the case of Dylan Roof, the usual suspects have no problems identifying his racist ideology as a causative factor there because it meshes with their own 'white supremacist' narrative, but when it comes to an ideology based on a profoundly homophobic religion such obvious parallels are suddenly off-limits, solely because it contradicts some other bullshit narrative these people have constructed.

  On 6/14/2016 at 1:27 PM, caze said:

if you don't think this has anything to do with religiously mandated homophobia, then you're seriously deluding yourself.

 

that doesn't mean it's the only thing that's relevant, if the US didn't have a retarded 2nd amendment this wouldn't have happened either, and you could find lots of other things that have various levels of impact on events like this occurring (whether we're talking about terrorism or crazy-person gun massacres in general).

 

but none of that gives ideological motivations a free pass.

 

it's interesting to contrast this to the case of Dylan Roof, the usual suspects have no problems identifying his racist ideology as a causative factor there because it meshes with their own 'white supremacist' narrative, but when it comes to an ideology based on a profoundly homophobic religion such obvious parallels are suddenly off-limits, solely because it contradicts some other bullshit narrative these people have constructed.

 

Let's suppose it does - what's the next move? A new war in the middle East? A call to action for uneducated racists to commit violence and post hateful psychobabble on social media? Donald Trump for president? Because that's what you get when you try to shine a light on problems with religious doctrine. We are not a nation of philosophers and thinkers.

Sometimes I wonder if simultaneous multi-region secession from the Union is a more viable long-term solution if things continue to go the way they do. More or less like the USSR collapse in 1991. That way we don't have to associate ourselves with Bible Belt beasties if we don't want to.

Cascadia!

Also people focus on Islam when they talk about problems with religion. Let's be fair - the modern interpretation of Christianity can get pretty fucked up as well. Which is sad because these religions at their core are more about peace and compassion than anything else. People hear what they want to hear though.

Wrong thread

A person's religion, imhfo, has little-to-nothing to do with the act. In this case, it likely influenced his thoughts on the matter, but he's a grown ass adult who has no one or nothing to blame but himself for his actions. Think what you want about anything, write about it, speak about it, whatever...but when your thoughts become actions and are going to bring you to kill another person, you're the only one to blame for making that leap. I'm not saying Islam doesn't have some bad parts, but all religions do. There are murderous Buddhists out there for fuck's sake, that doesn't mean Buddhism is to blame or is inherently an evil religion. Blaming Islam and expecting Muslims to bend over backwards to watch and control (what I've heard many anti-Islamists and just yesterday good ole Trump) fellow Muslims is insane and ridiculous.

  On 6/14/2016 at 1:40 PM, sweepstakes said:

Let's suppose it does - what's the next move? A new war in the middle East?

No.

    Quote

A call to action for uneducated racists to commit violence and post hateful psychobabble on social media?

No.

    Quote

Donald Trump for president?

No.

    Quote

Because that's what you get when you try to shine a light on problems with religious doctrine. We are not a nation of philosophers and thinkers.

No, that's what you get when the people who are philosophers and thinkers fail to honestly engage with reality, leaving it to pieces of shit like Trump only increases their support and makes it more likely that your first three questions will turn into reality.

Maybe i'm just a pessimist but I don't see any solution really. You could eradicate Islam and a select few would still turn into murderous lovelies. Welcome to Planet Earth.

  On 6/14/2016 at 1:45 PM, ambermonk said:

Sometimes I wonder if simultaneous multi-region secession from the Union is a more viable long-term solution if things continue to go the way they do. More or less like the USSR collapse in 1991. That way we don't have to associate ourselves with Bible Belt beasties if we don't want to.

The US wouldn't definitely work better in the long term if it was split into 3/4 new countries.

  On 6/14/2016 at 1:51 PM, sweepstakes said:

Cascadia!

 

Also people focus on Islam when they talk about problems with religion. Let's be fair - the modern interpretation of Christianity can get pretty fucked up as well. Which is sad because these religions at their core are more about peace and compassion than anything else. People hear what they want to hear though.

People focus on Islam because it's involved in more shit these days, of course that doesn't give fundamentalist Christianity a free pass though. Homophobic Christianity has a role to play in what happened in Orlando as well, if the US wasn't a fundamentally homophobic country then we wouldn't see segregated gay communities in anywhere near the same way, providing easy targets for hateful fucks of all stripes.

  On 6/14/2016 at 1:56 PM, auxien said:

A person's religion, imhfo, has little-to-nothing to do with the act. In this case, it likely influenced his thoughts on the matter, but he's a grown ass adult who has no one or nothing to blame but himself for his actions. Think what you want about anything, write about it, speak about it, whatever...but when your thoughts become actions and are going to bring you to kill another person, you're the only one to blame for making that leap. I'm not saying Islam doesn't have some bad parts, but all religions do. There are murderous Buddhists out there for fuck's sake, that doesn't mean Buddhism is to blame or is inherently an evil religion. Blaming Islam and expecting Muslims to bend over backwards to watch and control (what I've heard many anti-Islamists and just yesterday good ole Trump) fellow Muslims is insane and ridiculous.

Well said!

  On 6/14/2016 at 1:27 PM, caze said:

 

  On 6/14/2016 at 12:48 PM, Alcofribas said:

that doesn't mean it's the only thing that's relevant, if the US didn't have a retarded 2nd amendment this wouldn't have happened either, and you could find lots of other things that have various levels of impact on events like this occurring (whether we're talking about terrorism or crazy-person gun massacres in general).

 

 

 

i do think gun crime would go down over all, but didnt France just have a shitload of machin-gunning isis ransack paris multiple times? there are guns in Europe.

  On 6/14/2016 at 2:40 PM, marf said:

i do think gun crime would go down over all, but didnt France just have a shitload of machin-gunning isis ransack paris multiple times? there are guns in Europe.

you can never know whether you would have prevented any specific attack, but I think it's pretty obvious that the number of attacks would be drastically reduced. maybe some specific event would have been unpreventable from that kind of change, the person would just have found access to a gun no matter what it took, but a lot of attacks are going to me made possible by easy access to guns.

  On 6/14/2016 at 1:27 PM, caze said:

 

  On 6/14/2016 at 12:48 PM, Alcofribas said:

lol

a mosque said death to homosexuals. shooter's father said it's god's job to punish homosexuals. you're right man. slam fucking dunk. case closed. i'm glad the penetrating minds of watmm have seen through the haze of delusion and cut to the heart of the matter. those two "facts" prove it: we must finally be willing to admit that this is bc islam.

 

so i'm ready to take my head out of the sand and speak out against islam, to unite my voice with the tiny minority of those sounds brave enough to tell it like it is, to go against the grain, to wake up and to refuse to let the pro-muslim, reverse racist, regressive left, sheeple, clash of civilizations, mother load of bad ideas, culture war, primitive, religion of "peace" lol, sjw.

 

i'm glad we solved it.

 

 

if you don't think this has anything to do with religiously mandated homophobia, then you're seriously deluding yourself.

 

that doesn't mean it's the only thing that's relevant, if the US didn't have a retarded 2nd amendment this wouldn't have happened either, and you could find lots of other things that have various levels of impact on events like this occurring (whether we're talking about terrorism or crazy-person gun massacres in general).

 

but none of that gives ideological motivations a free pass.

 

it's interesting to contrast this to the case of Dylan Roof, the usual suspects have no problems identifying his racist ideology as a causative factor there because it meshes with their own 'white supremacist' narrative, but when it comes to an ideology based on a profoundly homophobic religion such obvious parallels are suddenly off-limits, solely because it contradicts some other bullshit narrative these people have constructed.

 

what i take issue with is the simplistic reasoning that any time a muslim commits a violent crime it signifies something essentially wrong about islam against which the enlightened west must wage battle. in this thread Lane came in, cast shame upon people for not making a thread and then wrote a long post all about how this was a co-ordinated attack planned by islamic terrorist but he was hesitant to examine such facts on watmm b/c the status quo is somehow intolerant of this obvious truth b/c they are indoctrinated by sjw prejudices or whatever. mind you this is not even 24 hours after the event and even now we still really don't know a whole lot about this guy. then limpy comes out of his shell to offer up 2 factoids for consideration which are an opinion shared by the shooters father and an idea promulgated in a random local mosque. then he downplays the significance of the shooter's mental health...and then you consider this "nailing it." lol

i don't take issue with these ideas b/c i'm an apologist for islam. tbh i don't really know a great deal about islam, i've not read the quran, i've not studied the history of islamic civilizations nor have i done any considerable readings in the history of religion or anthropology really. thus i do not find myself competent to make claims about essential aspects of islam, to seriously and intelligently judge its teachings or appraise its history and role in contemporary society. and i've never seen any one on this forum speak of islam with any kind of genuine knowledge or personally experience, except usagi. so when i hear people here regurgitating really conventional stereotypes about islam, religion vs reason, clash of civilizations and so on i simply don't take it seriously. to be blunt it is a "tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing."

i mean, just take a look at this piece about the shooter:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/omar-mateen-pulse-orlando-shooting-what-we-know

we've learned that he was a pretty fucked up dude. we learn that his family is from a country ravaged by war, he worked for a security firm, he beat up his wife and held her "hostage" and after their divorce she refused to speak to him for several years, he is said to have espoused hateful views to coworkers against blacks, jews, gays, politicians, etc., that his sympathetic comments about the tsvarnev brothers got the fbi to look into him, etc etc. in the last 24 hours we've also had a variety of reports come in that point toward his very own homosexuality and a story has even run that he frequented the very club that was the scene of his slaughter. now, perhaps i'm an idiot but to me this portrait is quite complex. to me this guy seems deeply disturbed and i see nothing in particular that screams out "this is a specifically islamic type of violence." unfortunately, his islamic views (whatever they might have been) just seem to me to be icing on the cake of shit that was this person. so please, when some one pops into the thread to point out that this is just another example of bad ol' islam i just find it lazy, a comfortable way of reducing the complexities of the world into more comfortable and convenient stereotypes.

from what i've read there are some incredibly fucked up ideas in islamic teachings and texts and i abhor them completely. but it is also undeniable that i live in a country who's leaders swear oaths to a christian god and drop bombs on thousands of innocent people and vow allegiance to places like israel that use disturbing readings of ancient holy books to justify the murder of innocents for ownership of some dust. it seems a little convenient that the enemy that our political class has worked so hard to indoctrinate us into hating is just coincidently the same enemy as the chosen elite who have to speak out against the prejudices of misguided "left" who are not satisfied with that. don't get me wrong, there's a serious problem with softy liberals who adhere to their status quo and won't speak out against atrocities when they clash with their ideology but i don't really see much difference between that and promulgating superficial ideas about islam. it's all the same to me.

Alco, I doubt I've ever said this online, and surely not on WATMM, but I think I agree with every single word you just stated. Seriously. :cheers:

sent using magic space waves

lush mate

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