How does the World view America these days?

  On 6/16/2016 at 5:34 PM, chenGOD said:

Flol. Choosing to defend your home with an AR-15 is a common sense choice.

I've actually pondered getting a gun for home defense and never could go through with it. I've always lived with a baseball bat and a police response of 5 minutes or less and that's all I really need. I completely get those who have guns on hand living out in very rural and/or remote areas - you have far more reasons to own one - wildlife threats, hunting opportunities, and worse case scenerio a lack of nearby police to respond.

  On 6/16/2016 at 8:25 PM, caze said:

 

  On 6/16/2016 at 7:12 PM, chenGOD said:

Your argument about representing the faith is one that is absurdly reductionist. And we've had this discussion before-the majority of Muslim leaders are the people describing the acts of ISIL and the lone wolf attacks as not being representative of Islam.

I'm not talking about ISIS, al-qaeda say ISIS doesn't represent their version of Islam either, it means nothing. This attack (or at least the choice of venue) was primarily motivated by homophobia by the looks of things (possibly exacerbated by the conflicts created by his own homosexuality - if that turns out to be true), and you can't really argue that homophobia isn't the default position in mainstream Islam, it's not just in the fringes. He was also obviously motivated by the militant islamist ideology to some degree as well, how deeply integrated he was into that world isn't really known at this point though other than he had made statements in support of them in the past and looked up islamist stuff online a lot over the last few years.

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Not me or other outsiders.

They are the outsiders in that example though, ISIS are the only ones who can speak for their form of Islam, there is nothing un-Islamic about them, they just disagree with mainstream interpretation of the texts, their version is still based on the texts though, it's still a valid reading of them in as much as any reading of them is valid (all readings of religious text are nonsense IMHO), and from the outside we can categorise which ones are more damaging to the outside world, but we can't say which ones are or are not 'authentic'.

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And you fixed nothing, religion itself is not about power and control, while the use of organized religion for political gain is.

No, it goes far beyond political control, it's about controlling morality, social norms, sexuality, etc. This takes place not through political means, but through social conditioning enforced via schools, religious groups, familial structures, etc. Of course that just gets worse with Islamism (or any Theocracy), where all that becomes the force of law.

Homophobia is still rampant in large swathes of the "West". His links to "radical Islam" are tenuous, as the articles Lane kindly posted show.

If only ISIS are qualified to comment on their interpretation, then the idea of it being "radical Islam" is moot. You've equated all forms of Islam at their essential level. Which denies opportunity for the moderates in Islam to combat ISIS ideologically. This kind of thinking also allows Trump to make his ridiculous statements like endorsing a blanket ban of Muslim immigration.

To the second point: what you're talking about is the use of organized religion for political gain, not religion per se. Attempting to enforce social conditioning via has an end goal of political control of economic resources. I reiterate, this has been done throughout history, and ISIS' goals represent nothing new in this aspect.

  On 6/16/2016 at 8:34 PM, caze said:

 

  On 6/16/2016 at 7:41 PM, Alcofribas said:

*considers the views and proposed policies concerning the republican candidate for president of the united states of america*

 

*completely agrees that there is a silencing of critical commentary about islam*

 

I wouldn't call anything Trump says 'critical commentary', 'bigoted rambling' would be a better phrase.

 

the point of course is that between condemnation of islam (whether bigoted or just) and efforts to silence islam, which one do you think has more reach or is more consequential?

i agree that there are bigots (obv) and there are those who swing in the opposite direction attempting to whitewash islam (also obv). but that does not mean that all criticism of islam that comes from a non bigoted place is correct or useful. and it seems itt you've been unwilling to acknowledge that some one could have a reasonable beef with a particular take on islam. i mean, my issue was with lane and limpy bringing it up and then peacing out without any substantive commentary. then lane proceeded to provide "sources" which undermined his claims and confessed that he hadn't even read them. this is precisely what i was talking about from the beginning. i'm not trying to silence or censor criticism, i'm merely hoping for a higher standard.

  On 6/16/2016 at 9:32 PM, chenGOD said:

Homophobia is still rampant in large swathes of the "West".

That's some nice whataboutery. I'm not a fan of other forms of homophobia either.

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His links to "radical Islam" are tenuous, as the articles Lane kindly posted show.

No they don't, they just show there's no evidence yet that he had any contacts or direct support (he did know the american suicide bomber who killed himself in Syria). He clearly has ideological links. Terrorists don't need direct support anyway, having isolated cells is the whole point with modern terrorism.

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If only ISIS are qualified to comment on their interpretation, then the idea of it being "radical Islam" is moot. You've equated all forms of Islam at their essential level.

No I haven't, that's what you keep attempting to make it look like I'm doing to straw-man me. The different forms of Islam are obviously not equal, and some are clearly objectively better than others - given the effect they have on the rest of the world, they are all forms of Islam though.

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Which denies opportunity for the moderates in Islam to combat ISIS ideologically. This kind of thinking also allows Trump to make his ridiculous statements like endorsing a blanket ban of Muslim immigration.

No it doesn't. Because I support them whenever they do it, unlike many on the left who claim that such people are traitors, native informants, etc. That's the kind of thinking that allows idiotic Trump ideas enter into the mainstream.

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To the second point: what you're talking about is the use of organized religion for political gain, not religion per se. Attempting to enforce social conditioning via has an end goal of political control of economic resources. I reiterate, this has been done throughout history, and ISIS' goals represent nothing new in this aspect.

No it's not, you've just ignored everything I said and repeated what you said before. Religion as a political force is separate to religion as a form of social control, both are bad, both are present within Islam today in worrying ways.

this is amazing. it's interesting what you can feed the masses, if the masses are already stupid.

p.s. lol @ foxnews caring so much about lgbtq community

https://youtu.be/oAXaPjKLais

  On 6/16/2016 at 10:09 PM, caze said:

 

  On 6/16/2016 at 9:32 PM, chenGOD said:

Homophobia is still rampant in large swathes of the "West".

That's some nice whataboutery. I'm not a fan of other forms of homophobia either.

TIL what whataboutery means. My dad and I used to get in discussions that was heavy on whataboutery (I try not to now, can't say the same for many other people I know in my family)

  On 6/16/2016 at 10:31 PM, Nebraska said:

this is amazing. it's interesting what you can feed the masses, if the masses are already stupid.

 

p.s. lol @ foxnews caring so much about lgbtq community

 

https://youtu.be/oAXaPjKLais

lol i got to 3.5 mins

  On 6/16/2016 at 10:09 PM, caze said:

 

  On 6/16/2016 at 9:32 PM, chenGOD said:

Homophobia is still rampant in large swathes of the "West".

That's some nice whataboutery. I'm not a fan of other forms of homophobia either.

 

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His links to "radical Islam" are tenuous, as the articles Lane kindly posted show.

No they don't, they just show there's no evidence yet that he had any contacts or direct support (he did know the american suicide bomber who killed himself in Syria). He clearly has ideological links. Terrorists don't need direct support anyway, having isolated cells is the whole point with modern terrorism.

 

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If only ISIS are qualified to comment on their interpretation, then the idea of it being "radical Islam" is moot. You've equated all forms of Islam at their essential level.

No I haven't, that's what you keep attempting to make it look like I'm doing to straw-man me. The different forms of Islam are obviously not equal, and some are clearly objectively better than others - given the effect they have on the rest of the world, they are all forms of Islam though.

 

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Which denies opportunity for the moderates in Islam to combat ISIS ideologically. This kind of thinking also allows Trump to make his ridiculous statements like endorsing a blanket ban of Muslim immigration.

No it doesn't. Because I support them whenever they do it, unlike many on the left who claim that such people are traitors, native informants, etc. That's the kind of thinking that allows idiotic Trump ideas enter into the mainstream.

 

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To the second point: what you're talking about is the use of organized religion for political gain, not religion per se. Attempting to enforce social conditioning via has an end goal of political control of economic resources. I reiterate, this has been done throughout history, and ISIS' goals represent nothing new in this aspect.

No it's not, you've just ignored everything I said and repeated what you said before. Religion as a political force is separate to religion as a form of social control, both are bad, both are present within Islam today in worrying ways.

 

It's not whataboutery, he was born in the United States, worked in a field where homophobia is rampant, and it's entirely possible that these were causes of his homophobia, which as you pointed out, was probably the main driver of his massacre.

He's not a terrorist cell, he's a mentally ill individual with easy access to guns.

Right, the different forms of Islam are not all equal, and the mainstream leaders of Islam have rejected ISIS' practices as being un-Islamic. That is, they do not represent Islam as it is currently practiced by the mainstream majority.

You're going to have provide links to those on the "left" who are saying that mainstream moderate Muslims who attempt to counter ISIS on an ideological level are traitors etc. I certainly don't think that, and have read nowhere in the mainstream "leftist" publications that such actions are considered treasonous. Trump's ideas are that "all Muslims are potential terrorists", so when clever people like yourself say that "they're all forms of Islam", average people just lump them all together. That's what allows Trump's idiotic ramblings to propagate. These so-called efforts to silence criticism of Islam - you have yet to provide any sources for this claim - if they are even noticed by average people, would have much less effect than Trump blaring his message across the mainstream networks 24/7.

Trying to silence critics looks like this: http://www.wired.com/2016/06/trump-bans-washington-post-latest-assault-press/

Why on earth would a group go through the trouble of trying to establish social control if not for the end game of political power.

Religion per se is a bunch of morality stories (Christianity's golden rule, Buddhism's four noble truths etc. etc.). Using organized religion to warp those morality stories to gain political power is something else.

Sidenote: associating hate and violence with mental illness only serves to stigmatize people who have mental illness. 'sane' people murder eachother every day.

most def

Bank just up the street from where I work was hit by an armed robbery. The guy made it out and they're hunting for him.

Just another day in America. LOL

  On 6/17/2016 at 12:54 AM, maitake said:

Bank just up the street from where I work was hit by an armed robbery. The guy made it out and they're hunting for him.

Just another day in America. LOL

 

lol jesus what a day..

our shop sits next to a school which had an explosive device planted on it today too

I was wondering what all the police were doing...

http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/State-police-ask-for-publics-help-after-explosive-device-found--383334601.html

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State police are asking for the public’s help after an improvised explosive device was found on a Radford University intramural field.

A university maintenance worker found the device Wednesday near a trashcan at the volleyball court. Around 12 p.m. Wednesday, state police bomb technicians arrived at Radford University and rendered the device safe a short time later.

The incident is still being investigated by Virginia State Police and Radford University police.

https://newrepublic.com/article/134311/orlando-exposed-islams-huge-homophobia-problem

somebody posted this already, I think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCozh_vbYdM

THEY TRIED TO ATTACK MY NUTS flol

also, I was quite surprised to learn that a 2014 START report to the Department of Homeland Security ranked these bozos as more serious concerns for law enforcement than anyone else, including jihadists.

  On 6/17/2016 at 5:16 AM, usagi said:

somebody posted this already, I think?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCozh_vbYdM

 

THEY TRIED TO ATTACK MY NUTS flol

 

also, I was quite surprised to learn that a 2014 START report to the Department of Homeland Security ranked these bozos as more serious concerns for law enforcement than anyone else, including jihadists.

flol

Good seeing them get owned like that. Morons.

I made it through the whole video. Wow

Oh westboro....

Westboro Baptist Church to protest at Orlando shooting victims' funerals

http://www.freep.com/story/news/2016/06/16/westboro-church-protest-orlando-shooting-victims-funerals/86013966/

  On 6/16/2016 at 8:56 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 6/16/2016 at 5:34 PM, chenGOD said:

Flol. Choosing to defend your home with an AR-15 is a common sense choice.

I've actually pondered getting a gun for home defense and never could go through with it. I've always lived with a baseball bat and a police response of 5 minutes or less and that's all I really need. I completely get those who have guns on hand living out in very rural and/or remote areas - you have far more reasons to own one - wildlife threats, hunting opportunities, and worse case scenerio a lack of nearby police to respond.

https://youtu.be/H8zitBN6ih0

shut up Varg, nobody cares about your shit.

  On 6/16/2016 at 11:55 PM, Salvatorin said:

Sidenote: associating hate and violence with mental illness only serves to stigmatize people who have mental illness. 'sane' people murder eachother every day.

Christ, good point.

fake-not-fake edit: fucking lol, what is he doing

this might be the first video of his I favourite...

who needs rifles when you have a fuckin stone

  On 6/17/2016 at 2:40 PM, usagi said:

shut up Varg, nobody cares about your shit.

He throws really well, I have to say. Could have been Norway's GOAT outfielder.

  On 6/17/2016 at 5:16 AM, usagi said:

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCozh_vbYdM

 

 

this is very disturbing! i never heard anything not even remotely similar happened in my country