new research shows sea levels could rise 60 feet

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:50 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 2:06 AM, usagi said:

I'll be sure to tell shame my cat for being immoral as soon as I get home.

 

the cruelty/awful conditions of factory farming are the problem, not the basic concept of carnivorousness. the natural world does not have these "morals". the only reason I would stop eating meat would be to stand against farming practices, not because I think eating meat is fundamentally wrong.

Yeah, industrial farming is terrible.

 

I wont take the <<natural world>> as a example for the basis of my morality. I think that choosing to feed yourself without hurting other living beings is worthwhile and for the better

 

I dont see how killing can be morally justifiable since its not needed in order to survive: we can survive well without meat. And the truth is, people eat meat cause meat taste good, not to survive. if meat tasted terrible, people would seek other way to feed themselves.

 

the natural world like lions dont get to choose and ponder on the impact of their actions, they either die of hunger or kill to survive. its incomparable.

 

I would love to just kill the animals I eat with my own hands. It's a long term goal. The immoral thing is counting on other people to treat the animal with the respect and dignity it deserves before you consume it. There is too little care for this part of the process. I want to take the life, clean the animal and process it, and I want to suffer through any moments of discomfort I might experience. Then I want to cook the animals in the most delicious way I can imagine, because that's the moral thing to do.

All life results in death for other creatures.

Veganism or vegetarianism does not exclude you from this fact as it pertains to food. Pesticides are used in all farming even organic. It results in loss of life. Farms result in loss of habitat which also results in loss of life. Animals are directly killed during the process of farming fruits and vegetables. It all results in death. The lengthy process that is required for you to get food from a farm to your plate results in loss of life. Furthermore, plants are alive. They are aware that you want to eat them. They do not want to die, and their reactions to danger and death are measurable. They also have anti-nutrients and toxins in them to deter being eaten. Most are too weak to hurt you, but the poisons in fruits and vegetables causes a hormetic healing effect in your body due to the biological response mechanisms.

The real truth is that you cannot get all the nutrients your body requires from just plants. You can get a lot of them. You can certainly be healthier than a lot of people, but you cannot get everything your body needs. Also, many of the plant based nutrients that people suggest can be converted into the appropriate nutrients your body needs are very poorly converted, and results in nutrient deficiencies due the inefficient process. This is exacerbated by gene polymorphisms that alter the mechanisms by which people absorb nutrients. Modern plants are also greatly reduced in the nutrients that they provide, because a lot of it is very sensitive and unstable and is actually missing from the plants by the time you are consuming them.

The science is all there and it's very clear.

You, me, livestock, plants, the earth. It's all works symbiotically. Good luck feeding the entire world on veggies that contain zero nutrients, because they were grown on infertile soil due to zero livestock.

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:37 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:50 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 2:06 AM, usagi said:

I'll be sure to tell shame my cat for being immoral as soon as I get home.

 

the cruelty/awful conditions of factory farming are the problem, not the basic concept of carnivorousness. the natural world does not have these "morals". the only reason I would stop eating meat would be to stand against farming practices, not because I think eating meat is fundamentally wrong.

Yeah, industrial farming is terrible.

 

I wont take the <<natural world>> as a example for the basis of my morality. I think that choosing to feed yourself without hurting other living beings is worthwhile and for the better

 

I dont see how killing can be morally justifiable since its not needed in order to survive: we can survive well without meat. And the truth is, people eat meat cause meat taste good, not to survive. if meat tasted terrible, people would seek other way to feed themselves.

 

the natural world like lions dont get to choose and ponder on the impact of their actions, they either die of hunger or kill to survive. its incomparable.

 

 

I would love to just kill the animals I eat with my own hands. It's a long term goal. The immoral thing is counting on other people to treat the animal with the respect and dignity it deserves before you consume it. There is too little care for this part of the process. I want to take the life, clean the animal and process it, and I want to suffer through any moments of discomfort I might experience. Then I want to cook the animals in the most delicious way I can imagine, because that's the moral thing to do.

 

All life results in death for other creatures.

 

Veganism or vegetarianism does not exclude you from this fact as it pertains to food. Pesticides are used in all farming even organic. It results in loss of life. Farms result in loss of habitat which also results in loss of life. Animals are directly killed during the process of farming fruits and vegetables. It all results in death. The lengthy process that is required for you to get food from a farm to your plate results in loss of life. Furthermore, plants are alive. They are aware that you want to eat them. They do not want to die, and their reactions to danger and death are measurable. They also have anti-nutrients and toxins in them to deter being eaten. Most are too weak to hurt you, but the poisons in fruits and vegetables causes a hormetic healing effect in your body due to the biological response mechanisms.

 

The real truth is that you cannot get all the nutrients your body requires from just plants. You can get a lot of them. You can certainly be healthier than a lot of people, but you cannot get everything your body needs. Also, many of the plant based nutrients that people suggest can be converted into the appropriate nutrients your body needs are very poorly converted, and results in nutrient deficiencies due the inefficient process. This is exacerbated by gene polymorphisms that alter the mechanisms by which people absorb nutrients. Modern plants are also greatly reduced in the nutrients that they provide, because a lot of it is very sensitive and unstable and is actually missing from the plants by the time you are consuming them.

 

The science is all there and it's very clear.

 

You, me, livestock, plants, the earth. It's all works symbiotically. Good luck feeding the entire world on veggies that contain zero nutrients, because they were grown on infertile soil due to zero livestock.

 

I feed myself with lentils, quinoa, rice, veggies, fruits, nuts, hemp seeds, soya and all sort of natural protein. I survive just well.

I understand and agree about some of your points. we do kill tons of animals, insects while cultivating veggies, lentils, rice ect. Sad fact.

comparing killling a plant vs killing a animal is not comparable physiologically. The nerves systems in plants cannot be compared to animals in response to pain. Sure a plant have a response and possibly feel some kind of pain, nothing like a pig or cow screaming in response to being cut piece by piece.

You can survive without eatiing meat. millions of indians have been doing that for centuries for example.

Sure, death is part of life amd trying to protect and preserve life and reduce suffering as much as possible is also part of life.

people ( I mean us relatively rich people who get to choose what we eat) eat meat cause it taste good. if it tasted like shit, people would not eat meat or much less. Eating meat is not for survival, its for greed and sensuous reasons.

I actually prefer dying a bit younger due to having lack nutrients if that have been able to reduce suffering of many animals as a result.

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:07 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:37 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:50 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 2:06 AM, usagi said:

I'll be sure to tell shame my cat for being immoral as soon as I get home.

 

the cruelty/awful conditions of factory farming are the problem, not the basic concept of carnivorousness. the natural world does not have these "morals". the only reason I would stop eating meat would be to stand against farming practices, not because I think eating meat is fundamentally wrong.

Yeah, industrial farming is terrible.

 

I wont take the <<natural world>> as a example for the basis of my morality. I think that choosing to feed yourself without hurting other living beings is worthwhile and for the better

 

I dont see how killing can be morally justifiable since its not needed in order to survive: we can survive well without meat. And the truth is, people eat meat cause meat taste good, not to survive. if meat tasted terrible, people would seek other way to feed themselves.

 

the natural world like lions dont get to choose and ponder on the impact of their actions, they either die of hunger or kill to survive. its incomparable.

 

 

I would love to just kill the animals I eat with my own hands. It's a long term goal. The immoral thing is counting on other people to treat the animal with the respect and dignity it deserves before you consume it. There is too little care for this part of the process. I want to take the life, clean the animal and process it, and I want to suffer through any moments of discomfort I might experience. Then I want to cook the animals in the most delicious way I can imagine, because that's the moral thing to do.

 

All life results in death for other creatures.

 

Veganism or vegetarianism does not exclude you from this fact as it pertains to food. Pesticides are used in all farming even organic. It results in loss of life. Farms result in loss of habitat which also results in loss of life. Animals are directly killed during the process of farming fruits and vegetables. It all results in death. The lengthy process that is required for you to get food from a farm to your plate results in loss of life. Furthermore, plants are alive. They are aware that you want to eat them. They do not want to die, and their reactions to danger and death are measurable. They also have anti-nutrients and toxins in them to deter being eaten. Most are too weak to hurt you, but the poisons in fruits and vegetables causes a hormetic healing effect in your body due to the biological response mechanisms.

 

The real truth is that you cannot get all the nutrients your body requires from just plants. You can get a lot of them. You can certainly be healthier than a lot of people, but you cannot get everything your body needs. Also, many of the plant based nutrients that people suggest can be converted into the appropriate nutrients your body needs are very poorly converted, and results in nutrient deficiencies due the inefficient process. This is exacerbated by gene polymorphisms that alter the mechanisms by which people absorb nutrients. Modern plants are also greatly reduced in the nutrients that they provide, because a lot of it is very sensitive and unstable and is actually missing from the plants by the time you are consuming them.

 

The science is all there and it's very clear.

 

You, me, livestock, plants, the earth. It's all works symbiotically. Good luck feeding the entire world on veggies that contain zero nutrients, because they were grown on infertile soil due to zero livestock.

 

Who said vegetarian means only eating vegetable? I feed myself with lentils, quinoa, rice, veggies, fruits, nuts, hemp seeds, soya and all sort of natural protein.

I understand and agree about some of your points. we do kill tons of animals, insects while cultivating veggies, lentils, rice ect. Sad fact.

 

comparing killling a plant vs killing a animal is not comparable physiologically. The nerves systems in plants cannot be compared to animals in response to pain. Sure a plant have a response and possibly feel some kind of pain, nothing like a pig or cow screaming in response to being cut piece by piece.

 

You can survive without eatiing meat. millions of indians have been doing that for centuries for example.

 

Sure, death is part of life amd trying to protect and preserve life and reduce suffering as much as possible is also part of life.

 

people ( I mean us relatively rich people who get to choose what we eat) eat meat cause it taste good. if it tasted like shit, people would not eat meat or much less. Eating meat is not for survival, its for greed and sensuous reasons.

 

I actually prefer dying a bit younger due to having lack nutrients if that have been able to reduce suffering of many animals as a result.

 

It's not just protein. It's very necessary vitamins like K2, B12, Iron, Vitamin A which is poorly converted from beta-carotene, EPA & DHA which are very poorly converted from ALA. These things are not insignificant. They don't just result in shorter lifespan. They result in mental illness, brain damage, chronic illness, behavioral problems, etc. You also have to take into account, modern foods are lower in nutritional value, but high quality meat and dairy products are extremely nutrient dense. Furthermore, grains and starches cause immune reactions for a large portion of the population. Some of them very low level, but still measurable and responsible for reducing the quality of life for the individuals consuming them. There is a large body of work specifically pointing to the fact that many people's bodies function better on high amounts of fat, moderate levels of protein, and near complete reduction of carbohydrates, something very difficult to attain as a vegetarian. Most people's bodies function better at increased levels of fat intake and reduced levels of sugar intake, because fat fuels mitochondrial cells very well and is more efficient as an energy source.

Leave it to a vegetarian to want to quantify the value of a life though. Very interesting. You're saying, because you cannot recognize the response a plant has to fear and pain readily that it's response is insignificant. It's all life. You are ending it by being a part of this ecosystem.

Your argument about it tasting good is silly. It has nutrients our bodies need to function properly. It's evolutionarily designed to taste good to us. Many people get a large portion of the calories necessary for them to survive from meat.

It's not just about dying younger. It's about disease, birth defects, the expression of your genes. It affects more than just your life too. It's has species wide consequences. Indian cultures have been consuming the same diet for a very long time. Their response to a specific diet is different than people from other cultures, because their gene expression is different. You cannot expect the entire world to adopt an Indian style diet and for it to be functional.

The argument is not, should we or should we not eat meat? The question is, can we make a suitable substitute to animal products? Right now we don't have them.

  On 3/17/2016 at 2:06 AM, usagi said:

I'll be sure to tell shame my cat for being immoral as soon as I get home.

Your cat doesn't have a choice, and I don't mean because it's "unthinking" or whatever. They literally can't survive without eating animal products, but you can. So for them it's a necessity whereas your diet includes animals for weak-ass reasons like preference, taste, tradition and whatnot. It is perfectly possible and reasonable to value human life over that of most other animals to a point where it would be justified to (kill and) consume other animals in a life or death situation but not for fun, which is what systematically putting animals on our menu boils down to.

  On 3/17/2016 at 2:06 AM, usagi said:

the cruelty/awful conditions of factory farming are the problem, not the basic concept of carnivorousness. the natural world does not have these "morals". the only reason I would stop eating meat would be to stand against farming practices, not because I think eating meat is fundamentally wrong.

But why do you think something's wrong with the way animals suffer in factory farms, even though that isn't "fundamentally" wrong either (as in, according to some universal law of nature)?

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:26 AM, usagi said:

you could choose as a human being to take an approach that aligns with your personal values more by opting not to kill and eat other creatures for sustenance, sure. but whether or not it's the high road, a true moral higher ground (if such a thing exists), I'm not so sure.

Try thinking of it as firmer, not higher ground. It's about trying to be consistent and fair and giving the same moral consideration to a cow or pig than to a pet cat. You don't want to have to wave a generality like 'there are no absolute morals, so anything goes' only at specific cases where you happen to need an excuse.

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:26 AM, usagi said:

I personally don't think I could survive without meat. or maybe survive poorly. I'd probably have to take iron supplements or something.

You'd most likely be wrong and your specific example certainly is, but since you added 'or something': sure eating strictly animal-free requires some thought, both because you need to pay attention to certain nutrients and because many of us live in areas where we don't have strong plant-based eating traditions in place (so we lack habit in what a good complete meal composition is, the plant-based equivalent of the classic meat-potato-and-veg style dish for instance).

Assuming you eat the right plant foods and get enough sunlight though, the only thing you'd need to supplement is vitamin B12. And in principle you could get that from the soil by eating unwashed produce, but I'd rather avoid the potential poisoning and diseases from contaminated foods and take a weekly supplement instead (one small bottle of tabs lasts a year). IIRC, for a laugh you should ask Adieu what his supplementation regime looks like and how much it costs him every month.

Anyway, the key point here is that it's a possible healthy and sufficient diet for 21st century homo sapiens. It doesn't need to be the easiest or automatically the healthiest for it to be ethically preferable. Having said that, I'm nearing six months of being a strict dietary vegan and am only feeling better and better as I'm learning how to eat better and better on this diet. I haven't been quite as thorough in eliminating animal products from other areas of my life (perfection is impossible there anyway) but I won't be buying leather clothes or shoes anymore, not even motorcycle gear (killing cows and kangaroos for their skin only to save your own during some recreational activity just feels wrong at this point).

you've made solid points, and I can't counter-argue all of them (although I'm still not sold on the sufficiency of a plant-only diet, I do think I'd crash hard if I tried), as I kinda feel some of them and it's well possible I could come around to this thinking some day, if global circumstances called for it.

however at this stage I'm not feeling the total necessity of stopping all consumption of meat. I think it's possible to humanely raise animals and slaughter them with minimum pain and trauma, and as for the question of whether it is our place to be imposing death on another creature to consume it, in simple terms, I think that's fine (with conditions). I think life is simply like that. animals killing each other for food is just how the world is, I don't see how we're any different. sure you can disavow that as a higher-intelligence organism, and I'd mostly respect that position, but I don't deem it essential.

further on the moral thing: this is complicated and personal. at this point in my life, I don't feel natural, raw existence at it's most primal/real comes with inherent morals, and that morals are superimposed by humans on life to make sense of things and also to ensure some kind of fairness. so they have value, they can't just be dismissed glibly to open the way for total selfish amorality, but it's all relative. I feel that an existence of perpetual, horrible suffering is worse than anything, far worse than, say, raising a free-roaming, healthy cow and killing it quickly to eat it. that's why I think factory farming is unacceptable but I'd still eat meat.

how did you start, by the way? curious about how your six months have gone.

eating meat is immoral, meat tastes good, I've made my peace with this.

amoral != immoral.

and just to be clear, I do love the taste of meat in a lot of foods and I'm not hiding behind the relative morality thing there. it is a big part of the reason I eat it, of course.

  On 3/17/2016 at 10:35 AM, usagi said:

amoral != immoral.

 

and just to be clear, I do love the taste of meat in a lot of foods and I'm not hiding behind the relative morality thing there. it is a big part of the reason I eat it, of course.

I know the difference, I meant immoral. I accept the moral argument made by the likes of Peter Singer, I just choose to ignore the consequences.

The argument that you can't have a proper diet being a vegetarian is simply incorrect, and I say this as a person who very much enjoys consuming animal flesh. A vegan diet is much more difficult to manage but not impossible, although one would most likely need to take at least Vitamin B12 supplements.

Adieu - you're the one who says that every person needs to find their own diet right? So why wouldn't you think vegetarians can't eat properly? Simple research can show how to get the required levels of all of those nutrients necessary. And if you still think that vegetarians/vegans can't be healthy and/or badass, simply google "vegetarian athletes"

Also the idea that plants' automatic response to stressors is like fear or pain is called anthropomorphism.

  On 3/17/2016 at 10:33 AM, caze said:

eating meat is immoral, meat tastes good, I've made my peace with this.

Eating meat doesn't have to be immoral. I try and eat meat that comes from local farms where there is no industrialized farming as much as possible. Not always successful, especially with deli meats, but I try.

Also, meat tastes hella good.

I have a hard enough time eating right as it is. I don't really invest the time to look after myself. full veganism seems like an impossible task to me, even with supplements.

how are vegan poos compared to meat-eater poos?

nth edit, relevant:

https://youtu.be/NcKo7lwZT70

  On 3/17/2016 at 11:19 AM, usagi said:

I have a hard enough time eating right as it is. I don't really invest the time to look after myself. full veganism seems like an impossible task to me, even with supplements.

 

how are vegan poos compared to meat-eater poos?

You'd have to ask a vegan who used to be a meat-eater i guess. or vice-versa.

  On 3/17/2016 at 11:13 AM, chenGOD said:

Eating meat doesn't have to be immoral. I try and eat meat that comes from local farms where there is no industrialized farming as much as possible. Not always successful, especially with deli meats, but I try.

I disagree, sure some forms can be less immoral than others, but once you accept certain assumptions (that animals feel and are conscious beings) the logic is pretty unassailable . It's important to remember morality isn't binary though, not giving to charity if you're wealthy could be seen as immoral for example, but obviously not as immoral as murdering someone. As a result I don't lose much sleep over my meat eating, despite accepting it as a moral failing on my part.

  Quote

 

 

Also, meat tastes hella good.

I agree.

yeah, you can survivve just well a vegetarian diet if you take B12 supplement which is often added into soy milk.

hundred of milllions of Indian do it.

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:42 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:07 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:37 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:50 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 2:06 AM, usagi said:

I'll be sure to tell shame my cat for being immoral as soon as I get home.

 

the cruelty/awful conditions of factory farming are the problem, not the basic concept of carnivorousness. the natural world does not have these "morals". the only reason I would stop eating meat would be to stand against farming practices, not because I think eating meat is fundamentally wrong.

Yeah, industrial farming is terrible.

 

I wont take the <<natural world>> as a example for the basis of my morality. I think that choosing to feed yourself without hurting other living beings is worthwhile and for the better

 

I dont see how killing can be morally justifiable since its not needed in order to survive: we can survive well without meat. And the truth is, people eat meat cause meat taste good, not to survive. if meat tasted terrible, people would seek other way to feed themselves.

 

the natural world like lions dont get to choose and ponder on the impact of their actions, they either die of hunger or kill to survive. its incomparable.

 

 

I would love to just kill the animals I eat with my own hands. It's a long term goal. The immoral thing is counting on other people to treat the animal with the respect and dignity it deserves before you consume it. There is too little care for this part of the process. I want to take the life, clean the animal and process it, and I want to suffer through any moments of discomfort I might experience. Then I want to cook the animals in the most delicious way I can imagine, because that's the moral thing to do.

 

All life results in death for other creatures.

 

Veganism or vegetarianism does not exclude you from this fact as it pertains to food. Pesticides are used in all farming even organic. It results in loss of life. Farms result in loss of habitat which also results in loss of life. Animals are directly killed during the process of farming fruits and vegetables. It all results in death. The lengthy process that is required for you to get food from a farm to your plate results in loss of life. Furthermore, plants are alive. They are aware that you want to eat them. They do not want to die, and their reactions to danger and death are measurable. They also have anti-nutrients and toxins in them to deter being eaten. Most are too weak to hurt you, but the poisons in fruits and vegetables causes a hormetic healing effect in your body due to the biological response mechanisms.

 

The real truth is that you cannot get all the nutrients your body requires from just plants. You can get a lot of them. You can certainly be healthier than a lot of people, but you cannot get everything your body needs. Also, many of the plant based nutrients that people suggest can be converted into the appropriate nutrients your body needs are very poorly converted, and results in nutrient deficiencies due the inefficient process. This is exacerbated by gene polymorphisms that alter the mechanisms by which people absorb nutrients. Modern plants are also greatly reduced in the nutrients that they provide, because a lot of it is very sensitive and unstable and is actually missing from the plants by the time you are consuming them.

 

The science is all there and it's very clear.

 

You, me, livestock, plants, the earth. It's all works symbiotically. Good luck feeding the entire world on veggies that contain zero nutrients, because they were grown on infertile soil due to zero livestock.

 

Who said vegetarian means only eating vegetable? I feed myself with lentils, quinoa, rice, veggies, fruits, nuts, hemp seeds, soya and all sort of natural protein.

I understand and agree about some of your points. we do kill tons of animals, insects while cultivating veggies, lentils, rice ect. Sad fact.

 

comparing killling a plant vs killing a animal is not comparable physiologically. The nerves systems in plants cannot be compared to animals in response to pain. Sure a plant have a response and possibly feel some kind of pain, nothing like a pig or cow screaming in response to being cut piece by piece.

 

You can survive without eatiing meat. millions of indians have been doing that for centuries for example.

 

Sure, death is part of life amd trying to protect and preserve life and reduce suffering as much as possible is also part of life.

 

people ( I mean us relatively rich people who get to choose what we eat) eat meat cause it taste good. if it tasted like shit, people would not eat meat or much less. Eating meat is not for survival, its for greed and sensuous reasons.

 

I actually prefer dying a bit younger due to having lack nutrients if that have been able to reduce suffering of many animals as a result.

 

 

It's not just protein. It's very necessary vitamins like K2, B12, Iron, Vitamin A which is poorly converted from beta-carotene, EPA & DHA which are very poorly converted from ALA. These things are not insignificant. They don't just result in shorter lifespan. They result in mental illness, brain damage, chronic illness, behavioral problems, etc. You also have to take into account, modern foods are lower in nutritional value, but high quality meat and dairy products are extremely nutrient dense. Furthermore, grains and starches cause immune reactions for a large portion of the population. Some of them very low level, but still measurable and responsible for reducing the quality of life for the individuals consuming them. There is a large body of work specifically pointing to the fact that many people's bodies function better on high amounts of fat, moderate levels of protein, and near complete reduction of carbohydrates, something very difficult to attain as a vegetarian. Most people's bodies function better at increased levels of fat intake and reduced levels of sugar intake, because fat fuels mitochondrial cells very well and is more efficient as an energy source.

 

Leave it to a vegetarian to want to quantify the value of a life though. Very interesting. You're saying, because you cannot recognize the response a plant has to fear and pain readily that it's response is insignificant. It's all life. You are ending it by being a part of this ecosystem.

 

Your argument about it tasting good is silly. It has nutrients our bodies need to function properly. It's evolutionarily designed to taste good to us. Many people get a large portion of the calories necessary for them to survive from meat.

 

It's not just about dying younger. It's about disease, birth defects, the expression of your genes. It affects more than just your life too. It's has species wide consequences. Indian cultures have been consuming the same diet for a very long time. Their response to a specific diet is different than people from other cultures, because their gene expression is different. You cannot expect the entire world to adopt an Indian style diet and for it to be functional.

 

The argument is not, should we or should we not eat meat? The question is, can we make a suitable substitute to animal products? Right now we don't have them.

 

Most of it is false and honestly sounds like pro meat propaganda.

so now that we all understand vegetarianism the ocean will stop rising, right?

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:10 PM, luke viia said:

so now that we all understand vegetarianism the ocean will stop rising, right?

I think the point was reduced livestock consumption would contribute to a reduction in emission of greenhouse gases, which are a factor in sea level rise.

yeah that was a bit sassy of me, soz. it's true, reduced livestock PRODUCTION would contribute to lower greenhouse gas emissions. but a few people eating a few less steaks...not gonna help. i'm probably in the minority here but i think we really need a heavier-handed top-down solution if we want things to change. ("ECO FASCIST!!" they'll say)..

bah I wrote like three versions of this post trying to lay out my thoughts on market sea changes that need to happen, but each time it has come out shit. i may be back later after a cup of coffee.

Oh I fully agree with you. Real change will take serious serious efforts in all facets of industrial production.

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:10 PM, Ayya Khema said:

yeah, you can survivve just well a vegetarian diet if you take B12 supplement which is often added into soy milk.

 

hundred of milllions of Indian do it.

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:42 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:07 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:37 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:50 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 2:06 AM, usagi said:

I'll be sure to tell shame my cat for being immoral as soon as I get home.

 

the cruelty/awful conditions of factory farming are the problem, not the basic concept of carnivorousness. the natural world does not have these "morals". the only reason I would stop eating meat would be to stand against farming practices, not because I think eating meat is fundamentally wrong.

Yeah, industrial farming is terrible.

 

I wont take the <<natural world>> as a example for the basis of my morality. I think that choosing to feed yourself without hurting other living beings is worthwhile and for the better

 

I dont see how killing can be morally justifiable since its not needed in order to survive: we can survive well without meat. And the truth is, people eat meat cause meat taste good, not to survive. if meat tasted terrible, people would seek other way to feed themselves.

 

the natural world like lions dont get to choose and ponder on the impact of their actions, they either die of hunger or kill to survive. its incomparable.

 

 

I would love to just kill the animals I eat with my own hands. It's a long term goal. The immoral thing is counting on other people to treat the animal with the respect and dignity it deserves before you consume it. There is too little care for this part of the process. I want to take the life, clean the animal and process it, and I want to suffer through any moments of discomfort I might experience. Then I want to cook the animals in the most delicious way I can imagine, because that's the moral thing to do.

 

All life results in death for other creatures.

 

Veganism or vegetarianism does not exclude you from this fact as it pertains to food. Pesticides are used in all farming even organic. It results in loss of life. Farms result in loss of habitat which also results in loss of life. Animals are directly killed during the process of farming fruits and vegetables. It all results in death. The lengthy process that is required for you to get food from a farm to your plate results in loss of life. Furthermore, plants are alive. They are aware that you want to eat them. They do not want to die, and their reactions to danger and death are measurable. They also have anti-nutrients and toxins in them to deter being eaten. Most are too weak to hurt you, but the poisons in fruits and vegetables causes a hormetic healing effect in your body due to the biological response mechanisms.

 

The real truth is that you cannot get all the nutrients your body requires from just plants. You can get a lot of them. You can certainly be healthier than a lot of people, but you cannot get everything your body needs. Also, many of the plant based nutrients that people suggest can be converted into the appropriate nutrients your body needs are very poorly converted, and results in nutrient deficiencies due the inefficient process. This is exacerbated by gene polymorphisms that alter the mechanisms by which people absorb nutrients. Modern plants are also greatly reduced in the nutrients that they provide, because a lot of it is very sensitive and unstable and is actually missing from the plants by the time you are consuming them.

 

The science is all there and it's very clear.

 

You, me, livestock, plants, the earth. It's all works symbiotically. Good luck feeding the entire world on veggies that contain zero nutrients, because they were grown on infertile soil due to zero livestock.

 

Who said vegetarian means only eating vegetable? I feed myself with lentils, quinoa, rice, veggies, fruits, nuts, hemp seeds, soya and all sort of natural protein.

I understand and agree about some of your points. we do kill tons of animals, insects while cultivating veggies, lentils, rice ect. Sad fact.

 

comparing killling a plant vs killing a animal is not comparable physiologically. The nerves systems in plants cannot be compared to animals in response to pain. Sure a plant have a response and possibly feel some kind of pain, nothing like a pig or cow screaming in response to being cut piece by piece.

 

You can survive without eatiing meat. millions of indians have been doing that for centuries for example.

 

Sure, death is part of life amd trying to protect and preserve life and reduce suffering as much as possible is also part of life.

 

people ( I mean us relatively rich people who get to choose what we eat) eat meat cause it taste good. if it tasted like shit, people would not eat meat or much less. Eating meat is not for survival, its for greed and sensuous reasons.

 

I actually prefer dying a bit younger due to having lack nutrients if that have been able to reduce suffering of many animals as a result.

 

 

It's not just protein. It's very necessary vitamins like K2, B12, Iron, Vitamin A which is poorly converted from beta-carotene, EPA & DHA which are very poorly converted from ALA. These things are not insignificant. They don't just result in shorter lifespan. They result in mental illness, brain damage, chronic illness, behavioral problems, etc. You also have to take into account, modern foods are lower in nutritional value, but high quality meat and dairy products are extremely nutrient dense. Furthermore, grains and starches cause immune reactions for a large portion of the population. Some of them very low level, but still measurable and responsible for reducing the quality of life for the individuals consuming them. There is a large body of work specifically pointing to the fact that many people's bodies function better on high amounts of fat, moderate levels of protein, and near complete reduction of carbohydrates, something very difficult to attain as a vegetarian. Most people's bodies function better at increased levels of fat intake and reduced levels of sugar intake, because fat fuels mitochondrial cells very well and is more efficient as an energy source.

 

Leave it to a vegetarian to want to quantify the value of a life though. Very interesting. You're saying, because you cannot recognize the response a plant has to fear and pain readily that it's response is insignificant. It's all life. You are ending it by being a part of this ecosystem.

 

Your argument about it tasting good is silly. It has nutrients our bodies need to function properly. It's evolutionarily designed to taste good to us. Many people get a large portion of the calories necessary for them to survive from meat.

 

It's not just about dying younger. It's about disease, birth defects, the expression of your genes. It affects more than just your life too. It's has species wide consequences. Indian cultures have been consuming the same diet for a very long time. Their response to a specific diet is different than people from other cultures, because their gene expression is different. You cannot expect the entire world to adopt an Indian style diet and for it to be functional.

 

The argument is not, should we or should we not eat meat? The question is, can we make a suitable substitute to animal products? Right now we don't have them.

 

Most of it is false and honestly sounds like pro meat propaganda.

No, this is reality. Welcome to it.

The large body of work you mention is funded by who exactly?

The argument is not, should we or should we not eat meat? The question is, can we make a suitable substitute to animal products? Right now we don't have them.

Do you have a source for those kind of arguments?

500 million indians are vegetarian and have been for centuries.

Reality is people live a healthy life with a vegetarian diet as long as you make sure of B12.

about the plants, all im saying is that a plant does not have the nerve system available to feel physical pain. Therefore morally, its obvious that cutting a cow in pieces is worst then killing plant. But im sure youll even argue with that. Im also in the believe that plants sense of self is extremely limited and its attachment to life is not ocmparable to a animal.

I'm not going ot argue about it. I've done my research.

When I'm 135 and you're dead I won't be upset that I ate animals.

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:10 PM, Ayya Khema said:

yeah, you can survivve just well a vegetarian diet if you take B12 supplement which is often added into soy milk.

 

hundred of milllions of Indian do it.

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:42 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:07 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:37 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:50 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 2:06 AM, usagi said:

I'll be sure to tell shame my cat for being immoral as soon as I get home.

 

the cruelty/awful conditions of factory farming are the problem, not the basic concept of carnivorousness. the natural world does not have these "morals". the only reason I would stop eating meat would be to stand against farming practices, not because I think eating meat is fundamentally wrong.

Yeah, industrial farming is terrible.

 

I wont take the <<natural world>> as a example for the basis of my morality. I think that choosing to feed yourself without hurting other living beings is worthwhile and for the better

 

I dont see how killing can be morally justifiable since its not needed in order to survive: we can survive well without meat. And the truth is, people eat meat cause meat taste good, not to survive. if meat tasted terrible, people would seek other way to feed themselves.

 

the natural world like lions dont get to choose and ponder on the impact of their actions, they either die of hunger or kill to survive. its incomparable.

 

 

I would love to just kill the animals I eat with my own hands. It's a long term goal. The immoral thing is counting on other people to treat the animal with the respect and dignity it deserves before you consume it. There is too little care for this part of the process. I want to take the life, clean the animal and process it, and I want to suffer through any moments of discomfort I might experience. Then I want to cook the animals in the most delicious way I can imagine, because that's the moral thing to do.

 

All life results in death for other creatures.

 

Veganism or vegetarianism does not exclude you from this fact as it pertains to food. Pesticides are used in all farming even organic. It results in loss of life. Farms result in loss of habitat which also results in loss of life. Animals are directly killed during the process of farming fruits and vegetables. It all results in death. The lengthy process that is required for you to get food from a farm to your plate results in loss of life. Furthermore, plants are alive. They are aware that you want to eat them. They do not want to die, and their reactions to danger and death are measurable. They also have anti-nutrients and toxins in them to deter being eaten. Most are too weak to hurt you, but the poisons in fruits and vegetables causes a hormetic healing effect in your body due to the biological response mechanisms.

 

The real truth is that you cannot get all the nutrients your body requires from just plants. You can get a lot of them. You can certainly be healthier than a lot of people, but you cannot get everything your body needs. Also, many of the plant based nutrients that people suggest can be converted into the appropriate nutrients your body needs are very poorly converted, and results in nutrient deficiencies due the inefficient process. This is exacerbated by gene polymorphisms that alter the mechanisms by which people absorb nutrients. Modern plants are also greatly reduced in the nutrients that they provide, because a lot of it is very sensitive and unstable and is actually missing from the plants by the time you are consuming them.

 

The science is all there and it's very clear.

 

You, me, livestock, plants, the earth. It's all works symbiotically. Good luck feeding the entire world on veggies that contain zero nutrients, because they were grown on infertile soil due to zero livestock.

 

Who said vegetarian means only eating vegetable? I feed myself with lentils, quinoa, rice, veggies, fruits, nuts, hemp seeds, soya and all sort of natural protein.

I understand and agree about some of your points. we do kill tons of animals, insects while cultivating veggies, lentils, rice ect. Sad fact.

 

comparing killling a plant vs killing a animal is not comparable physiologically. The nerves systems in plants cannot be compared to animals in response to pain. Sure a plant have a response and possibly feel some kind of pain, nothing like a pig or cow screaming in response to being cut piece by piece.

 

You can survive without eatiing meat. millions of indians have been doing that for centuries for example.

 

Sure, death is part of life amd trying to protect and preserve life and reduce suffering as much as possible is also part of life.

 

people ( I mean us relatively rich people who get to choose what we eat) eat meat cause it taste good. if it tasted like shit, people would not eat meat or much less. Eating meat is not for survival, its for greed and sensuous reasons.

 

I actually prefer dying a bit younger due to having lack nutrients if that have been able to reduce suffering of many animals as a result.

 

 

It's not just protein. It's very necessary vitamins like K2, B12, Iron, Vitamin A which is poorly converted from beta-carotene, EPA & DHA which are very poorly converted from ALA. These things are not insignificant. They don't just result in shorter lifespan. They result in mental illness, brain damage, chronic illness, behavioral problems, etc. You also have to take into account, modern foods are lower in nutritional value, but high quality meat and dairy products are extremely nutrient dense. Furthermore, grains and starches cause immune reactions for a large portion of the population. Some of them very low level, but still measurable and responsible for reducing the quality of life for the individuals consuming them. There is a large body of work specifically pointing to the fact that many people's bodies function better on high amounts of fat, moderate levels of protein, and near complete reduction of carbohydrates, something very difficult to attain as a vegetarian. Most people's bodies function better at increased levels of fat intake and reduced levels of sugar intake, because fat fuels mitochondrial cells very well and is more efficient as an energy source.

 

Leave it to a vegetarian to want to quantify the value of a life though. Very interesting. You're saying, because you cannot recognize the response a plant has to fear and pain readily that it's response is insignificant. It's all life. You are ending it by being a part of this ecosystem.

 

Your argument about it tasting good is silly. It has nutrients our bodies need to function properly. It's evolutionarily designed to taste good to us. Many people get a large portion of the calories necessary for them to survive from meat.

 

It's not just about dying younger. It's about disease, birth defects, the expression of your genes. It affects more than just your life too. It's has species wide consequences. Indian cultures have been consuming the same diet for a very long time. Their response to a specific diet is different than people from other cultures, because their gene expression is different. You cannot expect the entire world to adopt an Indian style diet and for it to be functional.

 

The argument is not, should we or should we not eat meat? The question is, can we make a suitable substitute to animal products? Right now we don't have them.

 

Most of it is false and honestly sounds like pro meat propaganda

It's so easy just to walk in here and shout "propoganda"..

Or even worse, people love to post that nutritionfacts.org website that's ran by a militant vegan hack of a doctor. The guy is obsessed with picking around to find studies in his favor.

Low-carbohydrate diet models have really excelled lately in labs and in human trials, given that the model diet is not rich in seed oil polyunsaturated fats. These fats were sold to consumers as "furniture polish". This shit is notorious in rodent model studies and a lot of them fail to realize that oxidative damage is strongly correlated with their consumption and NOT palmitic acid, myristic acid, lauric acid, etc found in the LARD research diets..

Something went wrong and now what used to be furniture polish (because of it's tendency to oxidize rapidly) is now used in just about every commercial fryer in the first-world. Corn oil, soybean oil, etc.. It was so clever of the food industry to adopt a waste product and re purpose it as food!

But hey I guess you sit around all day reading about this stuff right? Or do you get your facts from the same bullshit sources and Google queries like everyone else? Dr Gregor!!!! He's sounds to so intelligent, he must be right?!

Or did you fill your mind with the shit the other gurus say? They sell books and DVDs you know.. Some of them even have Dr in their name and went to medical school. This makes them the authority..

Is this a bad time?

  On 3/17/2016 at 8:46 PM, maitake said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:10 PM, Ayya Khema said:

yeah, you can survivve just well a vegetarian diet if you take B12 supplement which is often added into soy milk.

 

hundred of milllions of Indian do it.

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:42 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:07 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:37 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:50 AM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 2:06 AM, usagi said:

I'll be sure to tell shame my cat for being immoral as soon as I get home.

 

the cruelty/awful conditions of factory farming are the problem, not the basic concept of carnivorousness. the natural world does not have these "morals". the only reason I would stop eating meat would be to stand against farming practices, not because I think eating meat is fundamentally wrong.

Yeah, industrial farming is terrible.

 

I wont take the <<natural world>> as a example for the basis of my morality. I think that choosing to feed yourself without hurting other living beings is worthwhile and for the better

 

I dont see how killing can be morally justifiable since its not needed in order to survive: we can survive well without meat. And the truth is, people eat meat cause meat taste good, not to survive. if meat tasted terrible, people would seek other way to feed themselves.

 

the natural world like lions dont get to choose and ponder on the impact of their actions, they either die of hunger or kill to survive. its incomparable.

 

 

I would love to just kill the animals I eat with my own hands. It's a long term goal. The immoral thing is counting on other people to treat the animal with the respect and dignity it deserves before you consume it. There is too little care for this part of the process. I want to take the life, clean the animal and process it, and I want to suffer through any moments of discomfort I might experience. Then I want to cook the animals in the most delicious way I can imagine, because that's the moral thing to do.

 

All life results in death for other creatures.

 

Veganism or vegetarianism does not exclude you from this fact as it pertains to food. Pesticides are used in all farming even organic. It results in loss of life. Farms result in loss of habitat which also results in loss of life. Animals are directly killed during the process of farming fruits and vegetables. It all results in death. The lengthy process that is required for you to get food from a farm to your plate results in loss of life. Furthermore, plants are alive. They are aware that you want to eat them. They do not want to die, and their reactions to danger and death are measurable. They also have anti-nutrients and toxins in them to deter being eaten. Most are too weak to hurt you, but the poisons in fruits and vegetables causes a hormetic healing effect in your body due to the biological response mechanisms.

 

The real truth is that you cannot get all the nutrients your body requires from just plants. You can get a lot of them. You can certainly be healthier than a lot of people, but you cannot get everything your body needs. Also, many of the plant based nutrients that people suggest can be converted into the appropriate nutrients your body needs are very poorly converted, and results in nutrient deficiencies due the inefficient process. This is exacerbated by gene polymorphisms that alter the mechanisms by which people absorb nutrients. Modern plants are also greatly reduced in the nutrients that they provide, because a lot of it is very sensitive and unstable and is actually missing from the plants by the time you are consuming them.

 

The science is all there and it's very clear.

 

You, me, livestock, plants, the earth. It's all works symbiotically. Good luck feeding the entire world on veggies that contain zero nutrients, because they were grown on infertile soil due to zero livestock.

 

Who said vegetarian means only eating vegetable? I feed myself with lentils, quinoa, rice, veggies, fruits, nuts, hemp seeds, soya and all sort of natural protein.

I understand and agree about some of your points. we do kill tons of animals, insects while cultivating veggies, lentils, rice ect. Sad fact.

 

comparing killling a plant vs killing a animal is not comparable physiologically. The nerves systems in plants cannot be compared to animals in response to pain. Sure a plant have a response and possibly feel some kind of pain, nothing like a pig or cow screaming in response to being cut piece by piece.

 

You can survive without eatiing meat. millions of indians have been doing that for centuries for example.

 

Sure, death is part of life amd trying to protect and preserve life and reduce suffering as much as possible is also part of life.

 

people ( I mean us relatively rich people who get to choose what we eat) eat meat cause it taste good. if it tasted like shit, people would not eat meat or much less. Eating meat is not for survival, its for greed and sensuous reasons.

 

I actually prefer dying a bit younger due to having lack nutrients if that have been able to reduce suffering of many animals as a result.

 

 

It's not just protein. It's very necessary vitamins like K2, B12, Iron, Vitamin A which is poorly converted from beta-carotene, EPA & DHA which are very poorly converted from ALA. These things are not insignificant. They don't just result in shorter lifespan. They result in mental illness, brain damage, chronic illness, behavioral problems, etc. You also have to take into account, modern foods are lower in nutritional value, but high quality meat and dairy products are extremely nutrient dense. Furthermore, grains and starches cause immune reactions for a large portion of the population. Some of them very low level, but still measurable and responsible for reducing the quality of life for the individuals consuming them. There is a large body of work specifically pointing to the fact that many people's bodies function better on high amounts of fat, moderate levels of protein, and near complete reduction of carbohydrates, something very difficult to attain as a vegetarian. Most people's bodies function better at increased levels of fat intake and reduced levels of sugar intake, because fat fuels mitochondrial cells very well and is more efficient as an energy source.

 

Leave it to a vegetarian to want to quantify the value of a life though. Very interesting. You're saying, because you cannot recognize the response a plant has to fear and pain readily that it's response is insignificant. It's all life. You are ending it by being a part of this ecosystem.

 

Your argument about it tasting good is silly. It has nutrients our bodies need to function properly. It's evolutionarily designed to taste good to us. Many people get a large portion of the calories necessary for them to survive from meat.

 

It's not just about dying younger. It's about disease, birth defects, the expression of your genes. It affects more than just your life too. It's has species wide consequences. Indian cultures have been consuming the same diet for a very long time. Their response to a specific diet is different than people from other cultures, because their gene expression is different. You cannot expect the entire world to adopt an Indian style diet and for it to be functional.

 

The argument is not, should we or should we not eat meat? The question is, can we make a suitable substitute to animal products? Right now we don't have them.

 

Most of it is false and honestly sounds like pro meat propaganda

 

 

It's so easy just to walk in here and shout "propoganda"..

Or even worse, people love to post that nutritionfacts.org website that's ran by a militant vegan hack of a doctor. The guy is obsessed with picking around to find studies in his favor.

 

Low-carbohydrate diet models have really excelled lately in labs and in human trials, given that the model diet is not rich in seed oil polyunsaturated fats. These fats were sold to consumers as "furniture polish". This shit is notorious in rodent model studies and a lot of them fail to realize that oxidative damage is strongly correlated with their consumption and NOT palmitic acid, myristic acid, lauric acid, etc found in the LARD research diets..

 

Something went wrong and now what used to be furniture polish (because of it's tendency to oxidize rapidly) is now used in just about every commercial fryer in the first-world. Corn oil, soybean oil, etc.. It was so clever of the food industry to adopt a waste product and re purpose it as food!

 

But hey I guess you sit around all day reading about this stuff right? Or do you get your facts from the same bullshit sources and Google queries like everyone else? Dr Gregor!!!! He's sounds to so intelligent, he must be right?!

 

Or did you fill your mind with the shit the other gurus say? They sell books and DVDs you know.. Some of them even have Dr in their name and went to medical school. This makes them the authority..

 

who talked about dr. gregor?

Fact is, you can live a healthy life without eating meat.

Lol I'm reading some research on Indian vegetarian diets and they consume milk, cheese, and eggs. You can't even maintain a moral high ground if you are consuming dairy products. Honestly, you are as culpable for the death of that animal as someone who chooses to eat their meat.

  On 3/17/2016 at 8:55 PM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

Lol I'm reading some research on Indian vegetarian diets and they consume milk, cheese, and eggs. You can't even maintain a moral high ground if you are consuming dairy products. Honestly, you are as culpable for the death of that animal as someone who chooses to eat their meat.

you make very profound and elaborate research.

And logically, someone who dont eat meat but do consume dairy product is "better" then someone who consume both.

nobody mention about anyone being culpable. but since you bring it up, do you feel culpable eating meat? I personally sure did and why I stopped eating meat.