How does the World view Israel these days?

Its nice to see moderation actually works. 

it's hard for me to look at it a freeze frame of the current situation w/o thinking of the entire history since 1948.  actually been thinking about it a bit since a someone i know posted a pic of her grandad who along w/his family was given a few hours to leave the family home in back in 1948. 

i try to think that in response to the utter madness of the holocaust that there was perhaps no person thinking rationally and mistakes were made and now there's a shit ton of 1000 year old olive trees dying in the dirt unattended. 

seems lot's of religions were all living together there at the time no? shoe horning a new country into the middle of it by expelling people who currently lived there is at least a little controversial ay? i mean.. it's a very american thing to do. 

i'm full of endless compassion for suffering people but i mostly disdain religion except when i'm personally asking for something like when in highschool and my GF's period was 10 days late and please don't let her be pregnant god.

when i was younger i didn't understand much of it.. i don't understand much of it now. I grew up in miami and have a lot of close jewish friends who have mixed feelings about israel or are passionate about their religion and very pro israel. jewish people know all the best jewish jokes. i've read phillip roth Portnoy's Complaint is one of the great hillarious rants of all time. this is neither or nor there anything to do w/this thread but i'm 6 days into anti tumor medication so cut me some slack (if i ever get a tattoo it'll be that quote).

currently this situation is completely nuts. hammas is default care taker of lot's of needs of the people. there's literally no other way for many people there to survive w/o their help. but they're also pawns in this power struggle. bargaining chips etc in a wider symbolic struggle. 

i think if we could get rid of the nation states, terror organizations, and push the extremists to the edges of the room that reasonable peaceful people would prevail but there's so many fanatics. right wing radicals. extremists. religious zealots etc..

it's all a pot of tea that's been steeping too long to not be bitter. 

  On 5/18/2018 at 12:29 AM, Lane Visitor said:

"Hamas says most of protesters killed by Israel in Gaza were members

9 hours ago"

 

How will the average Israel bashing watmmer respond:

 

A. "but but that's actually Mossad posing as Hamas saying that"

 

B. "Hamas isnt a terrorist group though..."

 

C. "Yeah but still... 62 dead on one side vs 0 dead on the other"

Imagine how chaotic the middle-east would be right now if Israel wasn't there to maintain peace and order

  On 5/18/2018 at 5:51 AM, roasty said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 12:29 AM, Lane Visitor said:

"Hamas says most of protesters killed by Israel in Gaza were members

9 hours ago"

 

How will the average Israel bashing watmmer respond:

 

A. "but but that's actually Mossad posing as Hamas saying that"

 

B. "Hamas isnt a terrorist group though..."

 

C. "Yeah but still... 62 dead on one side vs 0 dead on the other"

 

Imagine how chaotic the middle-east would be right now if Israel wasn't there to maintain peace and order

 

they do have around 300 nukes. 

if outside nations never meddled i wonder how it'd look? there'd maybe be a big Persia there. 

  On 5/18/2018 at 4:44 AM, bendish said:

Its nice to see moderation actually works.

 

edit: paying some money has the good ol benefit of being able to delete your drunk angry posts

Miss Red is cool.

  On 5/18/2018 at 5:51 AM, roasty said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 12:29 AM, Lane Visitor said:

"Hamas says most of protesters killed by Israel in Gaza were members

9 hours ago"

 

How will the average Israel bashing watmmer respond:

 

A. "but but that's actually Mossad posing as Hamas saying that"

 

B. "Hamas isnt a terrorist group though..."

 

C. "Yeah but still... 62 dead on one side vs 0 dead on the other"

 

Imagine how chaotic the middle-east would be right now if Israel wasn't there to maintain peace and order

 

Genius of the day. 

  On 5/18/2018 at 5:09 AM, ignatius said:

it's hard for me to look at it a freeze frame of the current situation w/o thinking of the entire history since 1948.  actually been thinking about it a bit since a someone i know posted a pic of her grandad who along w/his family was given a few hours to leave the family home in back in 1948. 

 

i try to think that in response to the utter madness of the holocaust that there was perhaps no person thinking rationally and mistakes were made and now there's a shit ton of 1000 year old olive trees dying in the dirt unattended. 

 

seems lot's of religions were all living together there at the time no? shoe horning a new country into the middle of it by expelling people who currently lived there is at least a little controversial ay? i mean.. it's a very american thing to do. 

 

i'm full of endless compassion for suffering people but i mostly disdain religion except when i'm personally asking for something like when in highschool and my GF's period was 10 days late and please don't let her be pregnant god.

 

when i was younger i didn't understand much of it.. i don't understand much of it now. I grew up in miami and have a lot of close jewish friends who have mixed feelings about israel or are passionate about their religion and very pro israel. jewish people know all the best jewish jokes. i've read phillip roth Portnoy's Complaint is one of the great hillarious rants of all time. this is neither or nor there anything to do w/this thread but i'm 6 days into anti tumor medication so cut me some slack (if i ever get a tattoo it'll be that quote).

 

currently this situation is completely nuts. hammas is default care taker of lot's of needs of the people. there's literally no other way for many people there to survive w/o their help. but they're also pawns in this power struggle. bargaining chips etc in a wider symbolic struggle. 

 

i think if we could get rid of the nation states, terror organizations, and push the extremists to the edges of the room that reasonable peaceful people would prevail but there's so many fanatics. right wing radicals. extremists. religious zealots etc..

 

it's all a pot of tea that's been steeping too long to not be bitter. 

this is a good reasonable post so thank u

If You want another perspective what Israel is… I’ll try to make this as short as possible.

4d0lf, what a lovely username

  On 5/18/2018 at 12:29 AM, Lane Visitor said:

"Hamas says most of protesters killed by Israel in Gaza were members

9 hours ago"

 

How will the average Israel bashing watmmer respond:

 

A. "but but that's actually Mossad posing as Hamas saying that"

 

B. "Hamas isnt a terrorist group though..."

 

C. "Yeah but still... 62 dead on one side vs 0 dead on the other"

the fact that you think C is a point to lol at Israel's critics about, in spite of being generally true, says a lot about your take on the topic.

I met loads of Israelis when I spent 6 months travelling round India, as some of you probably know once they have done their national service that's where they go to get high for a while (long while tbh). I found them on the whole the most ignorant, arrogant, awful people I've ever met. But my largely easy going and diplomatic side reasoned with me and told me what if I spent a whole summer in Spain where the English like to get pissed up? My impression of my own countrymen would be that of people from Israel. Which of course isn't true. 

I understand that they are surrounded by countries that hate them, which makes them what they are. But I see and hear a lot of hypocrisy.

That's my humble opinion.

  On 5/18/2018 at 3:50 PM, beerwolf said:

I met loads of Israelis when I spent 6 months travelling round India, as some of you probably know once they have done their national service that's where they go to get high for a while (long while tbh). I found them on the whole the most ignorant, arrogant, awful people I've ever met. But my largely easy going and diplomatic side reasoned with me and told me what if I spent a whole summer in Spain where the English like to get pissed up? My impression of my own countrymen would be that of people from Israel. Which of course isn't true. 

I imagine young men in the 20s partying after IDF armed forces services would come off as ignorant/arrogant/awful. 

When I was a kid living in Okinawa many of the American military personal were 19-20 year old Marines. They'd get plastered off-base as soon as they were given permission. These were often the Americans who Okinawans and Japanese tourists encountered in public - loud, belligerent, cocky jarheads. Beyond that though there were thousands of more level-headed older Marines, USAF, army, and Naval personal, not to mention scores of US civilians and expats. But one spoiled apple ruins the bunch.

Point is yeah, dumb bros in their early 20s is a universal demographic of every nationality. 

  On 5/18/2018 at 12:59 PM, darreichungsform said:

4d0lf, what a lovely username

Does not change the facts

  On 5/18/2018 at 2:09 PM, usagi said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 12:29 AM, Lane Visitor said:

"Hamas says most of protesters killed by Israel in Gaza were members

9 hours ago"

How will the average Israel bashing watmmer respond:

A. "but but that's actually Mossad posing as Hamas saying that"

B. "Hamas isnt a terrorist group though..."

C. "Yeah but still... 62 dead on one side vs 0 dead on the other"

 

 

the fact that you think C is a point to lol at Israel's critics about, in spite of being generally true, says a lot about your take on the topic.

Don't want to argue, but I think you misinterpreted it. Not lolling at anything first off, as the killing of anyone is very sad to me. But there's often a general absolutism here when it comes to things like body count (as if they exist in a vacuum), which I think is a simple-minded way to discuss complex conflicts. For example, no one has even kept track or talks about all of the attempted deadly attacks and countless missles that are stifled by the idf on the regular--and in this case the fact that many of the "protesters" were actually violently attacking the idf. And still the narrative of events like this become about israel being the aggressor- every time.

But regardless, I know that's not going to change because Israel is paralleled to America and a symbol of the west, so they often get shit on the same way, I get that. Do I wish they could have simply arrested the Hamas members and avoided the remaining civilian casualties? Fuck yes. But I'm not a commander over there and I can't speak on the capabilities given the circumstances. Many times I wish there were drones with aerial cameras flying above these conflict zones at all times so we have a fuller picture of what goes on. I think that would reveal 2 things about Israel:

A. The idf is often ruthless and could be more accurate and exploratory in their self defense mechanism but with the nearly impossible standards given the attack methods of enemies surrounding them and the general labeling of the country from the world stage, they probably don't give too much of a fuck because everyone around them hates them anyway and no matter what extent they take, they will be labeled as the agressor. (They of course should still continue to strive for this goal of accuracy however.)

And B. Israel is not actually a genocidal maniac of a country.

First, I admit serious ignorance of the topic so my views are probably lacking in relation to the complexity. That said I'll only speak on the little I (think that I) know:

1. I've never heard a good reason why Israel exists at all. (Ignatius and others hinted that this is the real issue and I'd agree)

2. Israel needs to get rid of Netanyahu.

3. Fuck religion.

The thing that really bothers me, is that the IDF presents its actions as a part of a solution for this problem of "attempted deadly attacks". (whatever those maybe be.) Because it's not. It's simply a way to maintain the cycle of violence by introducing more of it. And worse, they'll tell you it's inevitable. Just like the walls and the fences which practically have created the worlds biggest prison. The fact that it's presented as a necessity tells more about the imbalance of (political) power. They want the impossible. To create a state in a place where there just happened to be people living already. A palestinian civilisation.

It's like two kids who want to sit in the same seat. It's just not possible. And *will* result in violence without the stereotypical adult stepping in. The violence is nothing more than childish powerplay. And currently, I feel way more sympathy towards the palestinian kid. Even though both shouldn't be proud of their behavior. It's just that the palestinian situation leaves hardly any room to be the adult of the two.

  On 5/18/2018 at 6:07 PM, auxien said:

First, I admit serious ignorance of the topic so my views are probably lacking in relation to the complexity. That said I'll only speak on the little I (think that I) know:

 

1. I've never heard a good reason why Israel exists at all. (Ignatius and others hinted that this is the real issue and I'd agree)

2. Israel needs to get rid of Netanyahu.

3. Fuck religion.

i can't imagine being in post WWII europe and figuring out what to do.  jewish people wanted a place of their own to be secure and not get hollocausted ever again. that's why israel exists.  but how that all went down seems not great and full of short sighted unintended consequences. 

but western nations redrawing maps has never really panned out has it? 

also, things going on in israel are so over the top.  tunneling under agreed upon borders for neighborhoods until they find some jewish artifacts or artifacts they can say are jewish and then going up to the street and kicking those people out of the house claiming it's historically jewish residence so people living their have to leave by law and then they move a jewish family in. thus expanding the border of the jewish neighborhood.. also, wtf w/some of those settlements. shit is outta control. 

there's just a lack of reasonable people and too much religious justification for craziness. 

sometimes seems like progress is happening but it's a long term thing to work out and takes a good 10 year process to move an inch.. and drumpf just took a huge shit in the middle of it all w/the embassy move. 

the history as I have been exposed to it is that the zone now known as Israel was a shithole before being populated by the jews, they then proceeded to make it into the industry fertile land it is today and the palestinians want it back now that it is no longer a shithole.

history always favors the winners tho so what the nuance of that is I haven't heard properly.

I wish I had the will of strength to not open this thread.

Most of the jews that live in israel are the descendants of murderers form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheka / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenrat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBagiew

etc

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:02 PM, 4d0lf said:

Most of the jews that live in israel are the descendants of murderers form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheka / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenrat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Żagiew

etc

Lol mmkay David Duke Jr.

  On 5/18/2018 at 7:39 PM, MIXL2 said:

the history as I have been exposed to it is that the zone now known as Israel was a shithole before being populated by the jews, they then proceeded to make it into the industry fertile land it is today and the palestinians want it back now that it is no longer a shithole.

 

history always favors the winners tho so what the nuance of that is I haven't heard properly.

if you "haven't heard properly" then maybe shut the fuck up and read some more? it's remarkable how much of a shitposting cunt you've managed to turn into lately. how old are you?

  On 5/18/2018 at 6:07 PM, auxien said:

First, I admit serious ignorance of the topic so my views are probably lacking in relation to the complexity. That said I'll only speak on the little I (think that I) know:

 

1. I've never heard a good reason why Israel exists at all. (Ignatius and others hinted that this is the real issue and I'd agree)

2. Israel needs to get rid of Netanyahu.

3. Fuck religion.

1. Zionism, though Zionism is a lot more diverse, complicated, and varied than most appreciate (similar to say the many strains of Marxism or anarchism branches). Zionism also was the concept of a homeland in general, not just the Levant, for example IIRC there were calls to settle in South Africa. There were Jews living in Palestine but yeah, most were immigrants. Complicating this is that Palestinians themselves have been uprooted and oppressed by neighboring countries like Jordan. Israelis fought not Palestine but other Arab neighbors in 1948, 56, 67, and 73. Egypt and Jordan occupied Palestinian territories until the 80s. They were also kicked out of Kuwait after Gulf War. So basically you have to legit nationalist movements that have come to bud heads in the last few decades. 

2. Yep. Ehud_Barak, who I will note is the most decorated IDF veteran alive, was the last good prime minister.

3. Religion is making it worse, especially via Right-Wing Christian US lobbying on the Israeli side, and Iranian support via Hamas on the other, but it's not the core issue, nationalism and the debate of "homeland countries" is.