How does the World view Israel these days?

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:37 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 6:07 PM, auxien said:

First, I admit serious ignorance of the topic so my views are probably lacking in relation to the complexity. That said I'll only speak on the little I (think that I) know:

 

1. I've never heard a good reason why Israel exists at all. (Ignatius and others hinted that this is the real issue and I'd agree)

2. Israel needs to get rid of Netanyahu.

3. Fuck religion.

 

1. Zionism, though Zionism is a lot more diverse, complicated, and varied than most appreciate (similar to say the many strains of Marxism or anarchism branches). Zionism also was the concept of a homeland in general, not just the Levant, for example IIRC there were calls to settle in South Africa. There were Jews living in Palestine but yeah, most were immigrants. Complicating this is that Palestinians themselves have been uprooted and oppressed by neighboring countries like Jordan. Israelis fought not Palestine but other Arab neighbors in 1948, 56, 67, and 73. Egypt and Jordan occupied Palestinian territories until the 80s. They were also kicked out of Kuwait after Gulf War. So basically you have to legit nationalist movements that have come to bud heads in the last few decades. 

2. Yep. Ehud_Barak, who I will note is the most decorated IDF veteran alive, was the last good prime minister.

3. Religion is making it worse, especially via Right-Wing Christian US lobbying on the Israeli side, and Iranian support via Hamas on the other, but it's not the core issue, nationalism and the debate of "homeland countries" is.

 

 

 

thanks for that. interesting stuff. wacko religious stuff from USA is indeed making _everything_ worse. "end times" nutjobs who want the 2nd coming at the expense of everything 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:00 AM, Ragnar said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 5:09 AM, ignatius said:

it's hard for me to look at it a freeze frame of the current situation w/o thinking of the entire history since 1948.  actually been thinking about it a bit since a someone i know posted a pic of her grandad who along w/his family was given a few hours to leave the family home in back in 1948. 

 

i try to think that in response to the utter madness of the holocaust that there was perhaps no person thinking rationally and mistakes were made and now there's a shit ton of 1000 year old olive trees dying in the dirt unattended. 

 

seems lot's of religions were all living together there at the time no? shoe horning a new country into the middle of it by expelling people who currently lived there is at least a little controversial ay? i mean.. it's a very american thing to do. 

 

i'm full of endless compassion for suffering people but i mostly disdain religion except when i'm personally asking for something like when in highschool and my GF's period was 10 days late and please don't let her be pregnant god.

 

when i was younger i didn't understand much of it.. i don't understand much of it now. I grew up in miami and have a lot of close jewish friends who have mixed feelings about israel or are passionate about their religion and very pro israel. jewish people know all the best jewish jokes. i've read phillip roth Portnoy's Complaint is one of the great hillarious rants of all time. this is neither or nor there anything to do w/this thread but i'm 6 days into anti tumor medication so cut me some slack (if i ever get a tattoo it'll be that quote).

 

currently this situation is completely nuts. hammas is default care taker of lot's of needs of the people. there's literally no other way for many people there to survive w/o their help. but they're also pawns in this power struggle. bargaining chips etc in a wider symbolic struggle. 

 

i think if we could get rid of the nation states, terror organizations, and push the extremists to the edges of the room that reasonable peaceful people would prevail but there's so many fanatics. right wing radicals. extremists. religious zealots etc..

 

it's all a pot of tea that's been steeping too long to not be bitter. 

 

this is a good reasonable post so thank u

 

 

I always look at places like Lebanon in the past and Israel and Syria and wonder "is a piece of dirt really worth it?" Survival and safety is what the average person wants. People forget this too when they are so hesitant to accept immigrants. I hate that argument I've heard that able-bodied Syrian adults who fled should "go home and fight for their country." Fight for what? A dictatorship? A destroyed home? A home where everyone you care about is dead?

 

People too forget that Europe has had huge shifts in populations and demographics, not just during WW1 and WW2 but other conflicts, and people moved on. Millions of German speaking Europeans never returned to their homes in what was Prussia. Japanese civilians lost entire cities and met a post-war of complete utter humility and defeat. I understand the raw and sincere emotions behind Israeli supporters after the absolute pinnacle of human hatred and destruction that was the Holocaust, but I can't excuse blind nationalism in the name of it.

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:32 PM, usagi said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 7:39 PM, MIXL2 said:

the history as I have been exposed to it is that the zone now known as Israel was a shithole before being populated by the jews, they then proceeded to make it into the industry fertile land it is today and the palestinians want it back now that it is no longer a shithole.

history always favors the winners tho so what the nuance of that is I haven't heard properly.

 

if you "haven't heard properly" then maybe shut the fuck up and read some more? it's remarkable how much of a shitposting cunt you've managed to turn into lately. how old are you?

21

 

edit: if I don't voice my opinions even if they are uninformed how am I supposed to learn how wrong/right I am? (other than reading up more obv)

 

edit2: thanks for the above posts josh

Edited May 18, 2018 by MIXL2

  On 5/18/2018 at 7:12 PM, ignatius said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 6:07 PM, auxien said:

First, I admit serious ignorance of the topic so my views are probably lacking in relation to the complexity. That said I'll only speak on the little I (think that I) know:

 

1. I've never heard a good reason why Israel exists at all. (Ignatius and others hinted that this is the real issue and I'd agree)

2. Israel needs to get rid of Netanyahu.

3. Fuck religion.

i can't imagine being in post WWII europe and figuring out what to do.  jewish people wanted a place of their own to be secure and not get hollocausted ever again. that's why israel exists.  but how that all went down seems not great and full of short sighted unintended consequences. 

 

but western nations redrawing maps has never really panned out has it? 

 

also, things going on in israel are so over the top.  tunneling under agreed upon borders for neighborhoods until they find some jewish artifacts or artifacts they can say are jewish and then going up to the street and kicking those people out of the house claiming it's historically jewish residence so people living their have to leave by law and then they move a jewish family in. thus expanding the border of the jewish neighborhood.. also, wtf w/some of those settlements. shit is outta control. 

 

there's just a lack of reasonable people and too much religious justification for craziness. 

 

sometimes seems like progress is happening but it's a long term thing to work out and takes a good 10 year process to move an inch.. and drumpf just took a huge shit in the middle of it all w/the embassy move. 

I'm with you 100%, I can't fathom what a good solution to trying to help out the Jewish population after such a devastating loss. At the same time I'm pretty fucking sure that taking land from others was not the correct answer, however. Israel regularly acting like shitheads (or becoming straight up murderous as it seems they are at some moments) hasn't helped. Shit is out of control, for sure...there's plenty of nasty behavior from (what I've seen) literally everyone involved, America not the least wrong of the many.

 

Again, the religion is a key issue. Israel=supposedly a non-Jewish state, but their actions sure seem to heavily biased by or rooted in the religion at almost every turn. 

 

I dunno, doesn't seem like anything's getting better from where I sit. Maybe over the course of decades it's improved? Again, I'm not the most knowledgeable here. That said, if this is 'better' than fuck me how bad was it? That sure doesn't make anything now okay.

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:37 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 6:07 PM, auxien said:

First, I admit serious ignorance of the topic so my views are probably lacking in relation to the complexity. That said I'll only speak on the little I (think that I) know:

 

1. I've never heard a good reason why Israel exists at all. (Ignatius and others hinted that this is the real issue and I'd agree)

2. Israel needs to get rid of Netanyahu.

3. Fuck religion.

 

1. Zionism, though Zionism is a lot more diverse, complicated, and varied than most appreciate (similar to say the many strains of Marxism or anarchism branches). Zionism also was the concept of a homeland in general, not just the Levant, for example IIRC there were calls to settle in South Africa. There were Jews living in Palestine but yeah, most were immigrants. Complicating this is that Palestinians themselves have been uprooted and oppressed by neighboring countries like Jordan. Israelis fought not Palestine but other Arab neighbors in 1948, 56, 67, and 73. Egypt and Jordan occupied Palestinian territories until the 80s. They were also kicked out of Kuwait after Gulf War. So basically you have to legit nationalist movements that have come to bud heads in the last few decades. 

2. Yep. Ehud_Barak, who I will note is the most decorated IDF veteran alive, was the last good prime minister.

3. Religion is making it worse, especially via Right-Wing Christian US lobbying on the Israeli side, and Iranian support via Hamas on the other, but it's not the core issue, nationalism and the debate of "homeland countries" is.

1. I need to go hunt for a good short book or a nice detailed and trustable (non-biased) video or documentary detailing the people and the history related to Israel. I start reading that Zionism Wiki entry and then I need to know more about one thing then I'm sitting here with 5 open Wikipedia tabs right now, each of them thousands of words. Everything you mentioned as well, I know enough about to get me in trouble but not enough to actually understand so I'll shut up (but thank you). Ultimately I just don't know why the West thinks we can keep clinging on to Middle East and acting like saviors of the many many issues there: all that is proof that we mostly just need to stay the fuck out of it. I know we won't because oil and power but yeah.

 

3. Yeah the amount of hold the super Evangelical shits here in America have on all this is really pretty scary...but mostly my 'fuck religion' was based on if we didn't bow down to it in general we'd not have many of the issues there. Jews would've never been forcefully inserted into the land to begin with, for one, but I think the nationalism of all sides acting there right now, Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, Jewish, Americans, Russians, etc., is very much rooted in the religion of the specific actors. No one there seems to be there for money alone, or just power even, it all goes back to the holy lands, the religion tied to the sites and cities. I know that I'm oversimplifying it at least partly there but the religion seems to be the key beneath the rest?

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

if I don't voice my opinions even if they are uninformed how am I supposed to learn how wrong/right I am?

Don't be a troll dude.

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:56 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

if I don't voice my opinions even if they are uninformed how am I supposed to learn how wrong/right I am?

 

Don't be a troll dude.

is not my goal to come across as that, sorry

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:25 PM, Lane Visitor said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:02 PM, 4d0lf said:

Most of the jews that live in israel are the descendants of murderers form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheka / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenrat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Żagiew

etc

Lol mmkay David Duke Jr.

 

 

This is so wrong and bullshitty I'm hesitating to even address it. Needless to say half of Israeli Jews (which doesn't include 20% of Israel's non-Jewish citizens) are descended from outside of Europe - Africa, Asia, neighboring Arab states. A lot of those from Europe descent post-WW2 are from the former USSR.

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:58 PM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:56 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

if I don't voice my opinions even if they are uninformed how am I supposed to learn how wrong/right I am?

Don't be a troll dude.

is not my goal to come across as that, sorry

 

Apologizing reinforces the way he's acting towards you, which simply put lacks patience and understanding.

  On 5/18/2018 at 10:43 PM, Ethel said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:58 PM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:56 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

if I don't voice my opinions even if they are uninformed how am I supposed to learn how wrong/right I am?

 

Don't be a troll dude.

is not my goal to come across as that, sorry

Apologizing reinforces the way he's acting towards you, which simply put lacks patience and understanding.

I understand, but there are fights which are not worth fighting

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:59 PM, joshuatx said:

 

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:02 PM, 4d0lf said:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD

This is so wrong and bullshitty I'm hesitating to even address it. Needless to say half of Israeli Jews (which doesn't include 20% of Israel's non-Jewish citizens) are descended from outside of Europe - Africa, Asia, neighboring Arab states. A lot of those from Europe descent post-WW2 are from the former USSR.

 

"Yagoda was born in Rybinsk into a Jewish family."

"Yezhov was not Jewish but was blessed with an active Jewish wife."

"Agranov was born in a Jewish shopkeeper's family in Checherskaya"

"This affair damaged Beria; not only had he championed the creation of the committee in 1942, but his own entourage included a substantial number of Jews."

etc

  On 5/18/2018 at 10:43 PM, Ethel said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:58 PM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:56 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

if I don't voice my opinions even if they are uninformed how am I supposed to learn how wrong/right I am?

Don't be a troll dude.

is not my goal to come across as that, sorry

 

Apologizing reinforces the way he's acting towards you, which simply put lacks patience and understanding.

Please do explain to me how I'm lacking patience and understanding.

  On 5/18/2018 at 10:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 10:43 PM, Ethel said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:58 PM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:56 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

if I don't voice my opinions even if they are uninformed how am I supposed to learn how wrong/right I am?

Don't be a troll dude.

is not my goal to come across as that, sorry

Apologizing reinforces the way he's acting towards you, which simply put lacks patience and understanding.

I understand, but there are fights which are not worth fighting

Troll harder?

  On 5/18/2018 at 10:56 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 10:43 PM, Ethel said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:58 PM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:56 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

if I don't voice my opinions even if they are uninformed how am I supposed to learn how wrong/right I am?

Don't be a troll dude.

is not my goal to come across as that, sorry

Apologizing reinforces the way he's acting towards you, which simply put lacks patience and understanding.

Please do explain to me how I'm lacking patience and understanding.

  On 5/18/2018 at 10:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 10:43 PM, Ethel said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:58 PM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:56 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:50 PM, MIXL2 said:

if I don't voice my opinions even if they are uninformed how am I supposed to learn how wrong/right I am?

Don't be a troll dude.

is not my goal to come across as that, sorry

Apologizing reinforces the way he's acting towards you, which simply put lacks patience and understanding.

I understand, but there are fights which are not worth fighting

Troll harder?

oh, fuck right off man.. make your points instead of dismissing me as a cunt or a troll or whatever you want to call me

 

edit: not trying to derail this thread.. carry on, if people have a problem with me they are welcome to pm me

Edited May 18, 2018 by MIXL2

who invented the term "Zionism" anyway, Alex Jones? whether concerns are legit it's harkening back to Protocols of the Elders of ____

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:52 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:00 AM, Ragnar said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 5:09 AM, ignatius said:

it's hard for me to look at it a freeze frame of the current situation w/o thinking of the entire history since 1948.  actually been thinking about it a bit since a someone i know posted a pic of her grandad who along w/his family was given a few hours to leave the family home in back in 1948. 

 

i try to think that in response to the utter madness of the holocaust that there was perhaps no person thinking rationally and mistakes were made and now there's a shit ton of 1000 year old olive trees dying in the dirt unattended. 

 

seems lot's of religions were all living together there at the time no? shoe horning a new country into the middle of it by expelling people who currently lived there is at least a little controversial ay? i mean.. it's a very american thing to do. 

 

i'm full of endless compassion for suffering people but i mostly disdain religion except when i'm personally asking for something like when in highschool and my GF's period was 10 days late and please don't let her be pregnant god.

 

when i was younger i didn't understand much of it.. i don't understand much of it now. I grew up in miami and have a lot of close jewish friends who have mixed feelings about israel or are passionate about their religion and very pro israel. jewish people know all the best jewish jokes. i've read phillip roth Portnoy's Complaint is one of the great hillarious rants of all time. this is neither or nor there anything to do w/this thread but i'm 6 days into anti tumor medication so cut me some slack (if i ever get a tattoo it'll be that quote).

 

currently this situation is completely nuts. hammas is default care taker of lot's of needs of the people. there's literally no other way for many people there to survive w/o their help. but they're also pawns in this power struggle. bargaining chips etc in a wider symbolic struggle. 

 

i think if we could get rid of the nation states, terror organizations, and push the extremists to the edges of the room that reasonable peaceful people would prevail but there's so many fanatics. right wing radicals. extremists. religious zealots etc..

 

it's all a pot of tea that's been steeping too long to not be bitter. 

 

this is a good reasonable post so thank u

 

 

I always look at places like Lebanon in the past and Israel and Syria and wonder "is a piece of dirt really worth it?" Survival and safety is what the average person wants. People forget this too when they are so hesitant to accept immigrants. I hate that argument I've heard that able-bodied Syrian adults who fled should "go home and fight for their country." Fight for what? A dictatorship? A destroyed home? A home where everyone you care about is dead?

 

People too forget that Europe has had huge shifts in populations and demographics, not just during WW1 and WW2 but other conflicts, and people moved on. Millions of German speaking Europeans never returned to their homes in what was Prussia. Japanese civilians lost entire cities and met a post-war of complete utter humility and defeat. I understand the raw and sincere emotions behind Israeli supporters after the absolute pinnacle of human hatred and destruction that was the Holocaust, but I can't excuse blind nationalism in the name of it.

 

 

Well, Israel is not a random "piece of dirt", this place is holy in Judaism, so the choice isn't terrible.

  On 5/19/2018 at 12:00 AM, darreichungsform said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:52 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:00 AM, Ragnar said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 5:09 AM, ignatius said:

it's hard for me to look at it a freeze frame of the current situation w/o thinking of the entire history since 1948.  actually been thinking about it a bit since a someone i know posted a pic of her grandad who along w/his family was given a few hours to leave the family home in back in 1948. 

 

i try to think that in response to the utter madness of the holocaust that there was perhaps no person thinking rationally and mistakes were made and now there's a shit ton of 1000 year old olive trees dying in the dirt unattended. 

 

seems lot's of religions were all living together there at the time no? shoe horning a new country into the middle of it by expelling people who currently lived there is at least a little controversial ay? i mean.. it's a very american thing to do. 

 

i'm full of endless compassion for suffering people but i mostly disdain religion except when i'm personally asking for something like when in highschool and my GF's period was 10 days late and please don't let her be pregnant god.

 

when i was younger i didn't understand much of it.. i don't understand much of it now. I grew up in miami and have a lot of close jewish friends who have mixed feelings about israel or are passionate about their religion and very pro israel. jewish people know all the best jewish jokes. i've read phillip roth Portnoy's Complaint is one of the great hillarious rants of all time. this is neither or nor there anything to do w/this thread but i'm 6 days into anti tumor medication so cut me some slack (if i ever get a tattoo it'll be that quote).

 

currently this situation is completely nuts. hammas is default care taker of lot's of needs of the people. there's literally no other way for many people there to survive w/o their help. but they're also pawns in this power struggle. bargaining chips etc in a wider symbolic struggle. 

 

i think if we could get rid of the nation states, terror organizations, and push the extremists to the edges of the room that reasonable peaceful people would prevail but there's so many fanatics. right wing radicals. extremists. religious zealots etc..

 

it's all a pot of tea that's been steeping too long to not be bitter. 

 

this is a good reasonable post so thank u

 

 

I always look at places like Lebanon in the past and Israel and Syria and wonder "is a piece of dirt really worth it?" Survival and safety is what the average person wants. People forget this too when they are so hesitant to accept immigrants. I hate that argument I've heard that able-bodied Syrian adults who fled should "go home and fight for their country." Fight for what? A dictatorship? A destroyed home? A home where everyone you care about is dead?

 

People too forget that Europe has had huge shifts in populations and demographics, not just during WW1 and WW2 but other conflicts, and people moved on. Millions of German speaking Europeans never returned to their homes in what was Prussia. Japanese civilians lost entire cities and met a post-war of complete utter humility and defeat. I understand the raw and sincere emotions behind Israeli supporters after the absolute pinnacle of human hatred and destruction that was the Holocaust, but I can't excuse blind nationalism in the name of it.

 

 

Well, Israel is not a random "piece of dirt", this place is holy in Judaism, so the choice isn't terrible.

 

 

they should've carved a mini-country out of Germany for ironycore imo

In fact they made two mini countries out of germany

  On 5/19/2018 at 12:10 AM, darreichungsform said:

In fact they made two mini countries out of germany

 

doh lol that's right haha

 

don't mind me I'm tired and hungry atm

 

I just meant the ironycore is yes it has Jewish, way back into history Jewish significance but how much did it figure into WWII. Wasn't even the middle eastern stuff/front more like Morocco, Casablanca

Edited May 19, 2018 by Ragnar

  On 5/19/2018 at 12:00 AM, darreichungsform said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:52 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:00 AM, Ragnar said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 5:09 AM, ignatius said:

it's hard for me to look at it a freeze frame of the current situation w/o thinking of the entire history since 1948.  actually been thinking about it a bit since a someone i know posted a pic of her grandad who along w/his family was given a few hours to leave the family home in back in 1948. 

 

i try to think that in response to the utter madness of the holocaust that there was perhaps no person thinking rationally and mistakes were made and now there's a shit ton of 1000 year old olive trees dying in the dirt unattended. 

 

seems lot's of religions were all living together there at the time no? shoe horning a new country into the middle of it by expelling people who currently lived there is at least a little controversial ay? i mean.. it's a very american thing to do. 

 

i'm full of endless compassion for suffering people but i mostly disdain religion except when i'm personally asking for something like when in highschool and my GF's period was 10 days late and please don't let her be pregnant god.

 

when i was younger i didn't understand much of it.. i don't understand much of it now. I grew up in miami and have a lot of close jewish friends who have mixed feelings about israel or are passionate about their religion and very pro israel. jewish people know all the best jewish jokes. i've read phillip roth Portnoy's Complaint is one of the great hillarious rants of all time. this is neither or nor there anything to do w/this thread but i'm 6 days into anti tumor medication so cut me some slack (if i ever get a tattoo it'll be that quote).

 

currently this situation is completely nuts. hammas is default care taker of lot's of needs of the people. there's literally no other way for many people there to survive w/o their help. but they're also pawns in this power struggle. bargaining chips etc in a wider symbolic struggle. 

 

i think if we could get rid of the nation states, terror organizations, and push the extremists to the edges of the room that reasonable peaceful people would prevail but there's so many fanatics. right wing radicals. extremists. religious zealots etc..

 

it's all a pot of tea that's been steeping too long to not be bitter. 

 

this is a good reasonable post so thank u

 

 

I always look at places like Lebanon in the past and Israel and Syria and wonder "is a piece of dirt really worth it?" Survival and safety is what the average person wants. People forget this too when they are so hesitant to accept immigrants. I hate that argument I've heard that able-bodied Syrian adults who fled should "go home and fight for their country." Fight for what? A dictatorship? A destroyed home? A home where everyone you care about is dead?

 

People too forget that Europe has had huge shifts in populations and demographics, not just during WW1 and WW2 but other conflicts, and people moved on. Millions of German speaking Europeans never returned to their homes in what was Prussia. Japanese civilians lost entire cities and met a post-war of complete utter humility and defeat. I understand the raw and sincere emotions behind Israeli supporters after the absolute pinnacle of human hatred and destruction that was the Holocaust, but I can't excuse blind nationalism in the name of it.

 

 

Well, Israel is not a random "piece of dirt", this place is holy in Judaism, so the choice isn't terrible.

 

 

 

but it's "not a random piece of dirt" to 3 major religions.. it's holy to a lot of people.. so maybe the choice could've been better?  or perhaps like "hey everyone already here worshipping all this stuff is cool if we squeeze in and share? 

 

unrealisitic i know.. perhaps it will all be a random piece of radioactive dirt some day.  my grandma told me about how god was gonna come down from the heavens and put his feet on the mtn and split it in half or something but ya think he'd have done something like that during the holocaust...

 

anyway.. fingers crossed this all doesn't end in radioactive cloud burst like scenarios and people revert back to better tendencies and we get smarter leaders who know how to solve complex problems yada yada yada... 

  On 5/19/2018 at 1:15 AM, ignatius said:

 

  On 5/19/2018 at 12:00 AM, darreichungsform said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:52 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:00 AM, Ragnar said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 5:09 AM, ignatius said:

it's hard for me to look at it a freeze frame of the current situation w/o thinking of the entire history since 1948.  actually been thinking about it a bit since a someone i know posted a pic of her grandad who along w/his family was given a few hours to leave the family home in back in 1948. 

 

i try to think that in response to the utter madness of the holocaust that there was perhaps no person thinking rationally and mistakes were made and now there's a shit ton of 1000 year old olive trees dying in the dirt unattended. 

 

seems lot's of religions were all living together there at the time no? shoe horning a new country into the middle of it by expelling people who currently lived there is at least a little controversial ay? i mean.. it's a very american thing to do. 

 

i'm full of endless compassion for suffering people but i mostly disdain religion except when i'm personally asking for something like when in highschool and my GF's period was 10 days late and please don't let her be pregnant god.

 

when i was younger i didn't understand much of it.. i don't understand much of it now. I grew up in miami and have a lot of close jewish friends who have mixed feelings about israel or are passionate about their religion and very pro israel. jewish people know all the best jewish jokes. i've read phillip roth Portnoy's Complaint is one of the great hillarious rants of all time. this is neither or nor there anything to do w/this thread but i'm 6 days into anti tumor medication so cut me some slack (if i ever get a tattoo it'll be that quote).

 

currently this situation is completely nuts. hammas is default care taker of lot's of needs of the people. there's literally no other way for many people there to survive w/o their help. but they're also pawns in this power struggle. bargaining chips etc in a wider symbolic struggle. 

 

i think if we could get rid of the nation states, terror organizations, and push the extremists to the edges of the room that reasonable peaceful people would prevail but there's so many fanatics. right wing radicals. extremists. religious zealots etc..

 

it's all a pot of tea that's been steeping too long to not be bitter. 

 

this is a good reasonable post so thank u

 

 

I always look at places like Lebanon in the past and Israel and Syria and wonder "is a piece of dirt really worth it?" Survival and safety is what the average person wants. People forget this too when they are so hesitant to accept immigrants. I hate that argument I've heard that able-bodied Syrian adults who fled should "go home and fight for their country." Fight for what? A dictatorship? A destroyed home? A home where everyone you care about is dead?

 

People too forget that Europe has had huge shifts in populations and demographics, not just during WW1 and WW2 but other conflicts, and people moved on. Millions of German speaking Europeans never returned to their homes in what was Prussia. Japanese civilians lost entire cities and met a post-war of complete utter humility and defeat. I understand the raw and sincere emotions behind Israeli supporters after the absolute pinnacle of human hatred and destruction that was the Holocaust, but I can't excuse blind nationalism in the name of it.

 

 

Well, Israel is not a random "piece of dirt", this place is holy in Judaism, so the choice isn't terrible.

 

 

 

but it's "not a random piece of dirt" to 3 major religions.. it's holy to a lot of people.. so maybe the choice could've been better?  or perhaps like "hey everyone already here worshipping all this stuff is cool if we squeeze in and share? 

 

unrealisitic i know.. perhaps it will all be a random piece of radioactive dirt some day.  my grandma told me about how god was gonna come down from the heavens and put his feet on the mtn and split it in half or something but ya think he'd have done something like that during the holocaust...

 

anyway.. fingers crossed this all doesn't end in radioactive cloud burst like scenarios and people revert back to better tendencies and we get smarter leaders who know how to solve complex problems yada yada yada... 

 

 

Sure, but as I mentioned Israel is in fact a secular nation, not a Jewish one even if the majority of its citizens is Jewish. A traditionally multi-religious area requires a secular state. That's why it is so sad that the country is ruled by nationalist religious fundamentalists that suppress the muslims. Hence criticism on Israeli government is necessary. People need to understand that criticizing the government of Israel is not antisemitism

  On 5/19/2018 at 1:22 AM, darreichungsform said:

 

  On 5/19/2018 at 1:15 AM, ignatius said:

 

  On 5/19/2018 at 12:00 AM, darreichungsform said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 8:52 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 9:00 AM, Ragnar said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 5:09 AM, ignatius said:

it's hard for me to look at it a freeze frame of the current situation w/o thinking of the entire history since 1948.  actually been thinking about it a bit since a someone i know posted a pic of her grandad who along w/his family was given a few hours to leave the family home in back in 1948. 

 

i try to think that in response to the utter madness of the holocaust that there was perhaps no person thinking rationally and mistakes were made and now there's a shit ton of 1000 year old olive trees dying in the dirt unattended. 

 

seems lot's of religions were all living together there at the time no? shoe horning a new country into the middle of it by expelling people who currently lived there is at least a little controversial ay? i mean.. it's a very american thing to do. 

 

i'm full of endless compassion for suffering people but i mostly disdain religion except when i'm personally asking for something like when in highschool and my GF's period was 10 days late and please don't let her be pregnant god.

 

when i was younger i didn't understand much of it.. i don't understand much of it now. I grew up in miami and have a lot of close jewish friends who have mixed feelings about israel or are passionate about their religion and very pro israel. jewish people know all the best jewish jokes. i've read phillip roth Portnoy's Complaint is one of the great hillarious rants of all time. this is neither or nor there anything to do w/this thread but i'm 6 days into anti tumor medication so cut me some slack (if i ever get a tattoo it'll be that quote).

 

currently this situation is completely nuts. hammas is default care taker of lot's of needs of the people. there's literally no other way for many people there to survive w/o their help. but they're also pawns in this power struggle. bargaining chips etc in a wider symbolic struggle. 

 

i think if we could get rid of the nation states, terror organizations, and push the extremists to the edges of the room that reasonable peaceful people would prevail but there's so many fanatics. right wing radicals. extremists. religious zealots etc..

 

it's all a pot of tea that's been steeping too long to not be bitter. 

 

this is a good reasonable post so thank u

 

 

I always look at places like Lebanon in the past and Israel and Syria and wonder "is a piece of dirt really worth it?" Survival and safety is what the average person wants. People forget this too when they are so hesitant to accept immigrants. I hate that argument I've heard that able-bodied Syrian adults who fled should "go home and fight for their country." Fight for what? A dictatorship? A destroyed home? A home where everyone you care about is dead?

 

People too forget that Europe has had huge shifts in populations and demographics, not just during WW1 and WW2 but other conflicts, and people moved on. Millions of German speaking Europeans never returned to their homes in what was Prussia. Japanese civilians lost entire cities and met a post-war of complete utter humility and defeat. I understand the raw and sincere emotions behind Israeli supporters after the absolute pinnacle of human hatred and destruction that was the Holocaust, but I can't excuse blind nationalism in the name of it.

 

 

Well, Israel is not a random "piece of dirt", this place is holy in Judaism, so the choice isn't terrible.

 

 

 

but it's "not a random piece of dirt" to 3 major religions.. it's holy to a lot of people.. so maybe the choice could've been better?  or perhaps like "hey everyone already here worshipping all this stuff is cool if we squeeze in and share? 

 

unrealisitic i know.. perhaps it will all be a random piece of radioactive dirt some day.  my grandma told me about how god was gonna come down from the heavens and put his feet on the mtn and split it in half or something but ya think he'd have done something like that during the holocaust...

 

anyway.. fingers crossed this all doesn't end in radioactive cloud burst like scenarios and people revert back to better tendencies and we get smarter leaders who know how to solve complex problems yada yada yada... 

 

 

Sure, but as I mentioned Israel is in fact a secular nation, not a Jewish one even if the majority of its citizens is Jewish. A traditionally multi-religious area requires a secular state. That's why it is so sad that the country is ruled by nationalist religious fundamentalists that suppress the muslims. Hence criticism on Israeli government is necessary. People need to understand that criticizing the government of Israel is not antisemitism

 

 

probably but the internet is such cancer on the issue so I might just post more borat

borat is usually welcome imo

Palestinian Chicken?

 

 

spoiler: that vocal sample is me sighing at the thread

Edited May 19, 2018 by Ragnar

lol

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/.premium-with-netanyahu-victory-it-s-time-we-admit-israel-has-become-a-dictatorship-1.7107324

 

 

 

and also

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/.premium-netanyahu-deserves-to-win-and-we-israelis-deserve-him-1.7086621

 

"Outside Israel, there's disbelief at Netanyahu's success when he’s so corrupt, divisive, racist, rejectionist and autocratic. But he's delivered, on his own terms, and Israeli voters have serially failed to demand better"