enjoying art from an artist who is less than savory

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:02 AM, ignatius said:

recently it was made apparent that david foster wallace stalked, abused a woman he was interested in and even followed home her 6 year old son from school talking to him about his mother or something like that.. all before he wrote infinite jest or something.. 

 

this was pretty hard for me to hear but after a while of thinking of it i remembered he was crazy full on OCD.  this doesn't excuse his behavior but puts it in a frame sort of.  i'm curious about where he was mentally when these htings happened and i find it hard to reconcile w/some of his writing since most of it is totally hyper self examining and hyper self conscious. .. also, kind, deep, beautiful etc etc.. 

 

but it's still all fucked fucked up in a way.  it'll make the next time i reread his work a little different.  have to believe the woman who told her story. she brought this stuff up in the past but was ignored or shuffled under the rug. 

 

these days we find out way sooner if someone is an asshole or a nazi or an abuser or 'proud boy' or homophobic etc... so it's easier to avoid this stuff... 

 

i'm not gonna go throw out my miles davis records.... we know a lot of legendary musicians and comedians and actors and writers had at times tempestuous abusive relationships and treated people poorly.  even jesus apparently killed a fig tree because it didn't bear fruit ;)

Didn't know that. Sounds interesting. Any sources perhaps?

Society tends to just put them in timeout for a minute until the fervor dies down and we forget.

Also, the older they get, their art may influence people too young to remember whatever weird thing they did. I really liked The Pianist when I was 17, not having known the director was a rapist...

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:05 AM, darreichungsform said:

 

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:02 AM, ignatius said:

recently it was made apparent that david foster wallace stalked, abused a woman he was interested in and even followed home her 6 year old son from school talking to him about his mother or something like that.. all before he wrote infinite jest or something.. 

 

this was pretty hard for me to hear but after a while of thinking of it i remembered he was crazy full on OCD.  this doesn't excuse his behavior but puts it in a frame sort of.  i'm curious about where he was mentally when these htings happened and i find it hard to reconcile w/some of his writing since most of it is totally hyper self examining and hyper self conscious. .. also, kind, deep, beautiful etc etc.. 

 

but it's still all fucked fucked up in a way.  it'll make the next time i reread his work a little different.  have to believe the woman who told her story. she brought this stuff up in the past but was ignored or shuffled under the rug. 

 

these days we find out way sooner if someone is an asshole or a nazi or an abuser or 'proud boy' or homophobic etc... so it's easier to avoid this stuff... 

 

i'm not gonna go throw out my miles davis records.... we know a lot of legendary musicians and comedians and actors and writers had at times tempestuous abusive relationships and treated people poorly.  even jesus apparently killed a fig tree because it didn't bear fruit ;)

Didn't know that. Sounds interesting. Any sources perhaps?

 

https://jezebel.com/mary-karr-reminds-the-world-that-david-foster-wallace-a-1825799769

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:09 AM, Braintree said:

I really liked The Pianist when I was 17, not having known the director was a rapist...

subliminal "The Penis" in the title tho

If the work of a musician/artist/actor/other entertainer is extraordinarily good, I automatically assume they're probably one of the worst people ever in some other regard.

Shudder to think what kind of skeletons Stevie Wonder had in his closet.

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:42 AM, Zephyr_Nova said:

If the work of a musician/artist/actor/other entertainer is extraordinarily good, I automatically assume they're probably one of the worst people ever in some other regard.

 

Shudder to think what kind of skeletons Stevie Wonder had in his closet.

Mr. Show hypothesis - everybody who wasn't Hitler who did good things for humanity got touched in the bumhole (butthole)

but yeah like people like, to be fair people want CONSTANT ENTERTAINMENT VALUE, and like without consequence/people being weird in real life, probably obvious in retrospect the Chris Farleys and Artie Langes of the world were total cokeheads. It ties into instant gratification bullshit to me (the people who want a good entertainer unconditionally, not Chris Farley himself). Like almost they want the coke vibes without the risk of actually doing coke. Yall cowards won't even smoknk crack

  On 5/23/2018 at 3:01 AM, Ragnar said:

 

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:42 AM, Zephyr_Nova said:

If the work of a musician/artist/actor/other entertainer is extraordinarily good, I automatically assume they're probably one of the worst people ever in some other regard.

 

Shudder to think what kind of skeletons Stevie Wonder had in his closet.

 

Mr. Show hypothesis - everybody who wasn't Hitler who did good things for humanity got touched in the bumhole (butthole)

 

  On 5/23/2018 at 3:03 AM, ignatius said:

 

  On 5/23/2018 at 3:01 AM, Ragnar said:

 

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:42 AM, Zephyr_Nova said:

If the work of a musician/artist/actor/other entertainer is extraordinarily good, I automatically assume they're probably one of the worst people ever in some other regard.

 

Shudder to think what kind of skeletons Stevie Wonder had in his closet.

 

Mr. Show hypothesis - everybody who wasn't Hitler who did good things for humanity got touched in the bumhole (butthole)

 

 

 

 

 

yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD6pYH0-GbQ

also possibly a pig furry

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:02 AM, ignatius said:

recently it was made apparent that david foster wallace stalked, abused a woman he was interested in and even followed home her 6 year old son from school talking to him about his mother or something like that.. all before he wrote infinite jest or something.. 

 

this was pretty hard for me to hear but after a while of thinking of it i remembered he was crazy full on OCD.  this doesn't excuse his behavior but puts it in a frame sort of.  i'm curious about where he was mentally when these htings happened and i find it hard to reconcile w/some of his writing since most of it is totally hyper self examining and hyper self conscious. .. also, kind, deep, beautiful etc etc.. 

 

but it's still all fucked fucked up in a way.  it'll make the next time i reread his work a little different.  have to believe the woman who told her story. she brought this stuff up in the past but was ignored or shuffled under the rug. 

 

these days we find out way sooner if someone is an asshole or a nazi or an abuser or 'proud boy' or homophobic etc... so it's easier to avoid this stuff... 

 

i'm not gonna go throw out my miles davis records.... we know a lot of legendary musicians and comedians and actors and writers had at times tempestuous abusive relationships and treated people poorly.  even jesus apparently killed a fig tree because it didn't bear fruit ;)

he also thought about having mary karr's husband murdered and threw her out of a moving vehicle. from all the biography i've read of him dfw was a giant piece of shit for a period in the nineties (maybe always) and i'll admit this brought his work down in my eyes. also the elevation of him to this sainthood status in the literary community and especially by young men when he was a pretty noted misogynist was difficult to reconcile. his work is so entwined with his narcissism and his deconstruction of himself that it becomes hard to read anything of his once you realize he was actually a bit of a fraud who was probably writing books for all the wrong reasons. but, saying all that, he was still a hugely influential figure to me when i was a teenager so i'm not going to erase that part of my life. and i still enjoy some of his work.

  On 5/23/2018 at 5:04 AM, zaphod said:

 

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:02 AM, ignatius said:

recently it was made apparent that david foster wallace stalked, abused a woman he was interested in and even followed home her 6 year old son from school talking to him about his mother or something like that.. all before he wrote infinite jest or something.. 

 

this was pretty hard for me to hear but after a while of thinking of it i remembered he was crazy full on OCD.  this doesn't excuse his behavior but puts it in a frame sort of.  i'm curious about where he was mentally when these htings happened and i find it hard to reconcile w/some of his writing since most of it is totally hyper self examining and hyper self conscious. .. also, kind, deep, beautiful etc etc.. 

 

but it's still all fucked fucked up in a way.  it'll make the next time i reread his work a little different.  have to believe the woman who told her story. she brought this stuff up in the past but was ignored or shuffled under the rug. 

 

these days we find out way sooner if someone is an asshole or a nazi or an abuser or 'proud boy' or homophobic etc... so it's easier to avoid this stuff... 

 

i'm not gonna go throw out my miles davis records.... we know a lot of legendary musicians and comedians and actors and writers had at times tempestuous abusive relationships and treated people poorly.  even jesus apparently killed a fig tree because it didn't bear fruit ;)

 

he also thought about having mary karr's husband murdered and threw her out of a moving vehicle. from all the biography i've read of him dfw was a giant piece of shit for a period in the nineties (maybe always) and i'll admit this brought his work down in my eyes. also the elevation of him to this sainthood status in the literary community and especially by young men when he was a pretty noted misogynist was difficult to reconcile. his work is so entwined with his narcissism and his deconstruction of himself that it becomes hard to read anything of his once you realize he was actually a bit of a fraud who was probably writing books for all the wrong reasons. but, saying all that, he was still a hugely influential figure to me when i was a teenager so i'm not going to erase that part of my life. and i still enjoy some of his work.

 

i didn't know anything about who he was. i got infinite jest as a gift when it was released and then i read it over a summer and read it again a couple more times. i've always loved it and there's a lot of his other work that i really love as well though some of it is hugely depressing.  i never thought of him as a fraud only as hugely gifted at using words.  there are bits of his stories are cribbed from other lines of thought or ideas but that's often a writerly thing to do though i'm sure is a thing writers argue about in some sweaty room that's very serious and toxic. 

anyway.. i thought Oblivion was amazing and i didn't understand why it wasn't selling out.. but what do i know about books. fuck.  there's some for real mind fucks in some of his work with stories that turn on themselves because they are so hyper considered and self conscious etc.. sort of like taking acid and questioning everything but holding on to a joke somewhere about humanity and i really dug that kind of thing because he did it well. also his nonfiction i found really good in places. 

obviously he wasn't very good at being a human being. i don't know if the entire face of him presented to the public was a total lie or what.  The Pale King was a let down for me and though there's a few passages i enjoyed there's a huge chunk that's straight up plagiarized from a story that Beck told in an interview in the 90s about when he was poor and lived in a shitty room w/friends and there was the rotating neon sign outside for the podiatrist's office and depending on which way it was pointing when they looked out the window they did or didn't do a thing. it was a flip of a coin for them w/o the coin.. that whole story goes on for many pages in the Pale king. 

it's a shame he was never able to be accused in this internet age and have that story come out so he could try to "This is water" it or whatever.  

he was obviously a bit 'off' if he was contemplating having her husband murdered and threw her out of a moving car. what the actual fuck. 

he made up a lot of shit in the non fiction. i still like some of the essays but they need to be read as fiction because that's what they are. when i say a fraud i mean he was originally a philosophy student and i think he brought that to his writing in a way that reflects negatively on his work now, to me. i believe, and this is supported in the bios on him, that he got into writing fiction because it would get him laid and because he wanted adulation from strangers and was deeply insecure and wanted to be praised as a genius, all of which happened. he also idolized people like gaddis and pynchon and delillo and looked down on eighties minimalists like bret easton ellis, who funnily enough was exploring the same themes in an equally facile and surface way, just in a different style. i think he was a narcissist and a lot of his pining on with jonathan franzen about how the point of literature is to make you feel less alone was fraudulent. he was a competitive guy and he brought that to literature and i think the pale king was a dead end for him because he realized he couldn't really write fiction anymore. if he had somehow broken through that and ditched it and became an essayist i think that would have been the best outcome for him, but whatever. it was a major loss that he's gone but i don't think a lot of people who set out to read him really understand the context of his work or his character and honestly i have been to so many apartments with an unread copy of infinite jest sitting on a shelf next to gravity's rainbow that i can't really take any of it seriously anymore.

  On 5/23/2018 at 5:29 AM, ignatius said:

 

there's a huge chunk that's straight up plagiarized from a story that Beck told in an interview in the 90s about when he was poor and lived in a shitty room w/friends and there was the rotating neon sign outside for the podiatrist's office and depending on which way it was pointing when they looked out the window they did or didn't do a thing. it was a flip of a coin for them w/o the coin.. 

lol what is this, like Beck, that Beck?

it's like dovetailing in my head with that Seinfeld episode with Kramer's apartment and the chicken restaurant with the glowing red sign, lol

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:42 AM, Zephyr_Nova said:

If the work of a musician/artist/actor/other entertainer is extraordinarily good, I automatically assume they're probably one of the worst people ever in some other regard.

 

Shudder to think what kind of skeletons Stevie Wonder had in his closet.

imagine what skeletons the featured artists have in their closets..

  On 5/23/2018 at 8:38 AM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:42 AM, Zephyr_Nova said:

If the work of a musician/artist/actor/other entertainer is extraordinarily good, I automatically assume they're probably one of the worst people ever in some other regard.

 

Shudder to think what kind of skeletons Stevie Wonder had in his closet.

imagine what skeletons the featured artists have in their closets..

 

i dunno, like aphex the whole windowlicker vid thing is probably just dramatic but if there's a grain of truth....... shemales

Sean's probably killed a few people and I'm ok with that.

Clark is faking the wheelchair thing for benefits.

  On 5/23/2018 at 8:38 AM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/23/2018 at 2:42 AM, Zephyr_Nova said:

If the work of a musician/artist/actor/other entertainer is extraordinarily good, I automatically assume they're probably one of the worst people ever in some other regard.

 

Shudder to think what kind of skeletons Stevie Wonder had in his closet.

imagine what skeletons the featured artists have in their closets..

 

Richard: pretty much idm Alex Jones. Assume there's some furtive holocaust denial in some very unpleasant corners of the internet

Squarepusher: grannyporn enthusiast, mod of a dedicated gilf forum

BoC: Anti-Vaxxers

Autechre: as Usagi said, hung around with organised crime in Manchester in their younger days, have probably killed at least one person

Plaid: kicked a dog to death

Clark: voted brexit

ceephax has done nothing bad ever tho, look at those vids.. he's ceegod

Ceephax is into findom with 18yr old female twitch streamers

I once saw luke vibert set fire to a bus stop

^ flol

Richard Wagner is another good example. He made some of the most significant music of his time but was an obsessive antisemite

there are certain rumours surrounding Coil, eg: despite the clear homoerotic context, some of these lads have to be under-age, its uncomfortable viewing particularly if you've ever been forced to "dance" with the devils that lurk among the Roman Catholic clergy

was anything ever taken further?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B16vnANrNIs

think SimplySuperior is an Andrew McKenzie project, at least the original url where all the Gurdjieff & 14hr ritual sound workshops were listed & where this was sourced from:

https://simply-superior.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/youre-dead-but-so-what.html

accusations & hearsay without direct proof are ultimately hippy rumours undermined by the farce around GPO's archive being seized by the filth where there was fk all justifiably prosecutable

Thighpaulsandra got into some murky waters with a partial advocacy of some aspects of under-age fantasies & their legal parameters, one interview covering his positions is detailed better here:

https://heathenharvest.org/2014/02/02/harvest-history-month-pt-ii-an-interview-with-thighpaulsandra/

it seems in a homo-erotic context, somes artist want to articulate transgressive fantasies considered taboo, but whether they've pushed further remains unknown

In rock things gets murkier still, Jimmy Page loved young teens & this has been confirmed by multiple sources, but millions of people still crank out Led Zep tunes but thats a whole other rabbit hole, rumours & confirmed facts are different worlds entirely

I mean sleazy lived in Thailand. say no more