Glitch plugins

  Awepittance said:

but frankly i think Cats on Earth's argument is just as old fashioned as saying 'drum machines are ruining music' , glitch plugins, drugs, any periphery things to the music itself music are symptoms, not causes of the problem. Sure Glitch plugins might be the bone you've picked, but i can go through a whole list of other reasons why electronic music or music in general is lacking creativity these days, glitch plugins in my strong opinion is a tiny sliver of the spectrum.

i agree, glitch plugins are definitely not the problem. if you read what i've written here you'll see that that isn't really the point i was getting at. BUT it's one example of the ways in which people want their music made for them instead of doing the work themselves, which i believe IS the problem. laziness and lack of creativity, in some respects, are related in my opinion. laziness breeds a lack of creativity because creativity inherently evolves out of problem solving and if you're leaving it up to someone/something else to solve most of the problems for you, then you really aren't being very creative.

personally, i think the main problem is that most of the people trying to make electronic music these days aren't really cut out to be producers, they're just fans of the music who want to try their hand at it as well. that's all fine and dandy, i don't have a problem with that, but i do have a problem with people cheapening the music as a whole because they have no desire to respect certain traditions (like learning your tools the way a violinist learns a violin). in a way it's a punk rock kind of mentality, just wanting to pick up and play what's inside of you, but without the punk attitude of capturing raw energy and the essence of a song while still having it resonate with an audience. but if you take away the raw energy, attitude and sentiment of punk rock then all you have is straight forward rock music that is pretty juvenile, unaccomplished and uninteresting. and most punk is garbage anyway, sooooooo....yea.

anyway, the point i'm making is that we live in an era of instant gratification and as tempting as it is for artists to want to complete a song as instantly as if we were calling up some shit on youtube, it's not necessarily what's going to be best for the music. i'm not saying you shouldn't try new things or embrace new technology, but you also have to be realistic and see that laziness reads - it's noticeable and it's only going to become more obvious with time, so you should always keep that in mind. using presets is fine, but if you're oblivious to the fact that a listener might very well hear that same preset in several other songs and their interpretation of your song is going to be effected by that then you're selling yourself short as an artist.

  Quote

i can't see why you're so proscriptive about music, it's up to the individual how to express himself

i'm not telling anyone how to make their music, that's something very personal. all i'm saying is that as musicians we have to realize that there is merit in the tedious things we do to make our music and doing those things help to develop our skills and make our music more interesting. personally, i feel like if you want to join in on the musical tradition then you better do your research, just like any other field. if you think what you have to say is so fucking important and brilliant that you can't be bothered with the petty inconveniences that the common man has to deal with before they can say what's on their minds, then you're just full of yourself and you need to keep your ego in check. it's like if i just walked off the street into your business office and started telling you how to run your company - you aren't going to do everything i say because it's so brilliant - you're going to ask me who the fuck i think i am and then show me the door because really, i know jack shit about how your business works. that's how i feel about music. every motherfucker on the street has something they think is important to say, but what makes someone an artist is not simply having something to say, but having something to say and having the will power, the desire and the patience to craft that into something fresh and interesting that resonates with people in some way. otherwise you're just some kid making a geocities website and thinking it's the same as ebay. you're just the douchebag at the party who didn't bring anything and thinks it's cool to just drink everybody else's beer. some may think that's an elitist mentality, but seriously, those people are fucking stupid. it's not exclusionary, but there are some prerequisites to join the club. and if you don't want to obtain those prerequisites, then i'm not saying you can't make music...i'm just saying keep that shit to yourself.

so in summary: IT'S ONLY ART IF YOU WORK FOR IT

  catsonearth said:

  Awepittance said:

but frankly i think Cats on Earth's argument is just as old fashioned as saying 'drum machines are ruining music' , glitch plugins, drugs, any periphery things to the music itself music are symptoms, not causes of the problem. Sure Glitch plugins might be the bone you've picked, but i can go through a whole list of other reasons why electronic music or music in general is lacking creativity these days, glitch plugins in my strong opinion is a tiny sliver of the spectrum.

 

i agree, glitch plugins are definitely not the problem. if you read what i've written here you'll see that that isn't really the point i was getting at. BUT it's one example of the ways in which people want their music made for them instead of doing the work themselves, which i believe IS the problem. laziness and lack of creativity, in some respects, are related in my opinion. laziness breeds a lack of creativity because creativity inherently evolves out of problem solving and if you're leaving it up to someone/something else to solve most of the problems for you, then you really aren't being very creative.

 

personally, i think the main problem is that most of the people trying to make electronic music these days aren't really cut out to be producers, they're just fans of the music who want to try their hand at it as well. that's all fine and dandy, i don't have a problem with that, but i do have a problem with people cheapening the music as a whole because they have no desire to respect certain traditions (like learning your tools the way a violinist learns a violin). in a way it's a punk rock kind of mentality, just wanting to pick up and play what's inside of you, but without the punk attitude of capturing raw energy and the essence of a song while still having it resonate with an audience. but if you take away the raw energy, attitude and sentiment of punk rock then all you have is straight forward rock music that is pretty juvenile, unaccomplished and uninteresting. and most punk is garbage anyway, sooooooo....yea.

 

anyway, the point i'm making is that we live in an era of instant gratification and as tempting as it is for artists to want to complete a song as instantly as if we were calling up some shit on youtube, it's not necessarily what's going to be best for the music. i'm not saying you shouldn't try new things or embrace new technology, but you also have to be realistic and see that laziness reads - it's noticeable and it's only going to become more obvious with time, so you should always keep that in mind. using presets is fine, but if you're oblivious to the fact that a listener might very well hear that same preset in several other songs and their interpretation of your song is going to be effected by that then you're selling yourself short as an artist.

 

  Quote

i can't see why you're so proscriptive about music, it's up to the individual how to express himself

 

i'm not telling anyone how to make their music, that's something very personal. all i'm saying is that as musicians we have to realize that there is merit in the tedious things we do to make our music and doing those things help to develop our skills and make our music more interesting. personally, i feel like if you want to join in on the musical tradition then you better do your research, just like any other field. if you think what you have to say is so fucking important and brilliant that you can't be bothered with the petty inconveniences that the common man has to deal with before they can say what's on their minds, then you're just full of yourself and you need to keep your ego in check. it's like if i just walked off the street into your business office and started telling you how to run your company - you aren't going to do everything i say because it's so brilliant - you're going to ask me who the fuck i think i am and then show me the door because really, i know jack shit about how your business works. that's how i feel about music. every motherfucker on the street has something they think is important to say, but what makes someone an artist is not simply having something to say, but having something to say and having the will power, the desire and the patience to craft that into something fresh and interesting that resonates with people in some way. otherwise you're just some kid making a geocities website and thinking it's the same as ebay. you're just the douchebag at the party who didn't bring anything and thinks it's cool to just drink everybody else's beer. some may think that's an elitist mentality, but seriously, those people are fucking stupid. it's not exclusionary, but there are some prerequisites to join the club. and if you don't want to obtain those prerequisites, then i'm not saying you can't make music...i'm just saying keep that shit to yourself.

i think you care too much about the scene and your place in it

nah, not at all. i really could give a fuck about a scene and i don't think my place in the electronic music world is any different than anyone else's. we all make electronic music, so that connects us in some way, but that's about as far as a "scene" goes in my mind. i'm just sick of hearing lazy, half assed music and i think lately there's been a little too much of the ultra-PC "anybody should be able to do it" attitude that has turned a lot of electronic music into a joke. i just don't believe it and i feel like if we were dealing with anything other than music everyone would see exactly what i'm getting at here. you can't be an economist unless you take the time to learn math and learn the concepts of economics. you can't be a writer if you can't bother to learn language and grammar. you can't play an instrument unless you learn how it works and practice making it sound good. it's all the same shit. you can't be an electronic musician if you can't be bothered to figure out how it all works. if you bought a robot that could automatically play the clarinet for you and you press the 'on' button, you wouldn't be making music, you'd just be facilitating something else making sounds. to me those are different things. they may not be any different to you, but hey, that's you. if you have an opposing opinion, make it known and i'll digest it. if you just don't like what i'm saying or i'm hurting your feelings by insulting the way you make music then i'm sorry, but you aren't going to stop me from saying it. especially if you have nothing to counter it with.

  catsonearth said:

nah, not at all. i really could give a fuck about a scene and i don't think my place in the electronic music world is any different than anyone else's. we all make electronic music, so that connects us in some way, but that's about as far as a "scene" goes in my mind. i'm just sick of hearing lazy, half assed music and i think lately there's been a little too much of the ultra-PC "anybody should be able to do it" attitude that has turned a lot of electronic music into a joke. i just don't believe it and i feel like if we were dealing with anything other than music everyone would see exactly what i'm getting at here. you can't be an economist unless you take the time to learn math and learn the concepts of economics. you can't be a writer if you can't bother to learn language and grammar. you can't play an instrument unless you learn how it works and practice making it sound good. it's all the same shit. you can't be an electronic musician if you can't be bothered to figure out how it all works. if you bought a robot that could automatically play the clarinet for you and you press the 'on' button, you wouldn't be making music, you'd just be facilitating something else making sounds. to me those are different things. they may not be any different to you, but hey, that's you. if you have an opposing opinion, make it known and i'll digest it. if you just don't like what i'm saying or i'm hurting your feelings by insulting the way you make music then i'm sorry, but you aren't going to stop me from saying it. especially if you have nothing to counter it with.

i don't really want to argue with you we just differ about this

my attitude is i don't care whether someone likes how i made music

the point should be does it as you say resonate and especially does it resonate with me

i do want listeners to enjoy what i make but that's not my primary concern at all

  IRARI said:

  catsonearth said:

nah, not at all. i really could give a fuck about a scene and i don't think my place in the electronic music world is any different than anyone else's. we all make electronic music, so that connects us in some way, but that's about as far as a "scene" goes in my mind. i'm just sick of hearing lazy, half assed music and i think lately there's been a little too much of the ultra-PC "anybody should be able to do it" attitude that has turned a lot of electronic music into a joke. i just don't believe it and i feel like if we were dealing with anything other than music everyone would see exactly what i'm getting at here. you can't be an economist unless you take the time to learn math and learn the concepts of economics. you can't be a writer if you can't bother to learn language and grammar. you can't play an instrument unless you learn how it works and practice making it sound good. it's all the same shit. you can't be an electronic musician if you can't be bothered to figure out how it all works. if you bought a robot that could automatically play the clarinet for you and you press the 'on' button, you wouldn't be making music, you'd just be facilitating something else making sounds. to me those are different things. they may not be any different to you, but hey, that's you. if you have an opposing opinion, make it known and i'll digest it. if you just don't like what i'm saying or i'm hurting your feelings by insulting the way you make music then i'm sorry, but you aren't going to stop me from saying it. especially if you have nothing to counter it with.

 

i don't really want to argue with you we just differ about this

my attitude is i don't care whether someone likes how i made music

the point should be does it as you say resonate and especially does it resonate with me

i do want listeners to enjoy what i make but that's not my primary concern at all

well then what is your primary concern? entertaining yourself? enjoying the act of making music? if that's the case shouldn't you actually enjoy making the music (and part of that means enjoying the process)? i'm sorry, but if you're just pressing a button and sitting back while a pre-programmed (not by you) algorithm writes music for you then what exactly is there to enjoy about that process? maybe there is enjoyment to be had, but i've never experienced it and i can't wrap my head around it.

i'm not implying that's what you do personally or making any judgments on what you do since i can't say i've ever heard your music before, but that is basically what we're talking about here - programs that do scripted things for you that you could easily do yourself and probably end up with more interesting results. where does the pleasure come from?

mostly i just don't get your stance - are you saying that people shouldn't practice their craft meticulously? are you saying that it doesn't matter? are you saying there's no difference?

i don't feel like i'm trying to tell people how to make their music at all, but i am telling people to be realistic and honest and quit faking the funk. if you claim to love making music, then all i'm saying is - love making the music, don't sell it short by being lazy! enjoy the process and the experimentation, don't let yourself stagnate even though the allure is hard to resist. and if you don't really love the act of making music and feel like you can't be bothered giving 100%, all i ask is that you be honest about that shit and pursue something else, don't just be that motherfucker taking up space, not contributing anything.

just put supatrigga on everything

then feed that in to dblue

then back into supatrigga

then back into livecut

whack the tempo up to SNAFU speed and you're all set.

EDIT..

oh and sorry but...

  Quote

i don't feel like i'm trying to tell people how to make their music at all, but i am telling people to be realistic and honest and quit faking the funk. if you claim to love making music, then all i'm saying is - love making the music, don't sell it short by being lazy! enjoy the process and the experimentation, don't let yourself stagnate even though the allure is hard to resist. and if you don't really love the act of making music and feel like you can't be bothered giving 100%, all i ask is that you be honest about that shit and pursue something else, don't just be that motherfucker taking up space, not contributing anything.

is just bullshit.

one thing i really cant get my head round is people (i know some) who just use premade loops from sample packs, stick a few together and call it their techno track, occasionally adding a little bit of dance orientated synth vst (often a preset that involves already having some kind of sequence) . its not so much that its wrong (which it surely is), but personally i could get absolute zero satisfaction out of doing taht. although i do use glitch vst sometimes (never on random) i can't bring myself to use synth presets. people show me synths and go "check out this pad" and "check out this sound" but i just find using a preset uninspiring, i'd rather use fruity 3 osc and start from scratch with a sine wave or something than some massive deep complex pad that i had no hand in making

it is a well known fact that all presets are rubbish. plus it's always exactly the same collection of sounds as presets on every synth made after 1995.

  catsonearth said:

pre-programmed (not by you) algorithm

so is an algorithm that you made ok then?

  Kcinsu said:

  catsonearth said:

pre-programmed (not by you) algorithm

 

so is an algorithm that you made ok then?

i would say for sure yes.

i mean, anything is "ok". we're just talking what is/isn't lazy and uninspired.

  LUDD said:

one thing i really cant get my head round is people (i know some) who just use premade loops from sample packs, stick a few together and call it their techno track, occasionally adding a little bit of dance orientated synth vst (often a preset that involves already having some kind of sequence) . its not so much that its wrong (which it surely is), but personally i could get absolute zero satisfaction out of doing taht. although i do use glitch vst sometimes (never on random) i can't bring myself to use synth presets. people show me synths and go "check out this pad" and "check out this sound" but i just find using a preset uninspiring, i'd rather use fruity 3 osc and start from scratch with a sine wave or something than some massive deep complex pad that i had no hand in making

well that's how your taught if you buy "acid dj"

i despise using samples from loop sets you buy or whatever, lame

interesting.

I think you are more into the idealistic side of this debate, than the actual results of using something random.

If I made a program that pretty much did exactly what supatrigga did, would it then be ok?

In the end, the program is still going to be doing automated tasks, with less interaction.

Id writing a program that performs a function a musical endeavor in itself?

For me, intent is the biggest factor.

Like I said before.... I rather someone download supatrigga, run it for 15 mins, cut up that audio, and repiece it together, than for someone to construct their own random algorithm, and just let it run.

I mean, take samples for example. You didnt make the content of the sample, but you use it in a way to get something musical from it... with your intent.

Anyways, I don't know. Just reading your posts, it makes me feel like you are more concerned with the principle, than the result... and for me, its always about the result, when it comes to music. Maybe Im interpreting you wrong... I dont intend to put words in your mouth.

Why do you guys hate music?

  LUDD said:

one thing i really cant get my head round is people (i know some) who just use premade loops from sample packs, stick a few together and call it their techno track, occasionally adding a little bit of dance orientated synth vst (often a preset that involves already having some kind of sequence) . its not so much that its wrong (which it surely is), but personally i could get absolute zero satisfaction out of doing taht.

This is how i got started in making music. It certainly doesnt make good music, but i dont see anything wrong with it becuase if youre dedicated to making music things will eventually evolve into your own sound. It was essential for me, a person who knew nothing about DAWs, music, synths, effects or sequencers to make this sort of preset music in order to understand how to make music at all, and i look back on my first ep made in this fashion with fondness.

Same here. Granted, the music was horrible, and this was also almost a decade ago, and listening to it now makes me cringe and giggle a little bit, but everyone's gotta start somewhere.

We should have a "post your early, really shitty music" thread. I think I'm gonna make one tomorrow if I can dredge up some shit.

!. pour water on your pc while you play your song

2. record

3. collect cash

  catsonearth said:

most punk is garbage anyway, sooooooo....yea.

yea...

xtc

talking heads

the clash

buzzcocks

undertones

etc etc.

total gash.

yeh....

most punk was rubbish though

most music is rubbish

all msuic is rubisbh

everything is rubbish.

  loganfive said:

  catsonearth said:

most punk is garbage anyway, sooooooo....yea.

 

 

yea...

 

 

xtc

talking heads

the clash

buzzcocks

undertones

 

 

 

etc etc.

 

 

total gash.

 

 

yeh....

yea, but that's like, 5 bands (and i could think of a handful of others that were awesome as well) out of millions and millions of punk bands. after the 70s - mid-80s, punk got waaaaaaaaay bad, all that screamy shit, screeching weasel and shit like that. it's just not for me, man. i mean, i understand what it's about, but i just don't feel that angsty inside that i need to rage to trashy music and listen to some dude scream his poorly thought out political views.

but if you really want to get down to it, i don't know if i'd really consider xtc or the talking heads punk. they came out of that era and that scene, but i don't think their music ever really fit in with what other people were doing. same with blondie. more "post punk" i'd say. even the clash was more experimental than most punk at the time with their electronic elements and dub/ska/reggae influence.

but if you stray outside of the golden era of punk and even outside of the golden bands like x, bad brains, ramones, ny dolls, etc. it all starts to get pretty shaky (for me, at least). the golden era stuff you could totally get into even if you're not really a punk fan, but the later stuff...you gotta be really dedicated to that sound to really get anything out of it.

punk was pretty much 1977 and a couple of years after. (in the uk)

too much awesomeness... even just within bromley at that point.

i totally agree with you about its sharp decline though.

Punk fucking sucked until Blink 182 came around and fixed it.

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