Game of Thrones

wow.

I did not read the books and was not prepared for that. especially the brutal stabbing bit.

Just when it was lulling me back into thinking things were kinda stable again...

  On 6/4/2013 at 5:25 PM, Mirezzi said:

Okay, I'll confess that I think it's a bit creepy and unsettling that HBO's showrunner, David Benioff, added shit to the Red Wedding that wasn't even in the book.

 

Talisa wasn't even in attendance, let alone brutally rape-baby-stabbed to death. When I was watching the scenes leading up to the insanity, I thought it was a really unmotivated bit of writing and I was questioning whether Martin was quite the hack. Why on earth would she have been in attendance? Anyway, definitely disturbing...I can understand why people found it offensive, especially within our current cultural context of Tea Party female-hating. If the idea was to hold a mirror to society, I suppose it succeeds as powerful symbolic representation.

The irony is some Tea Party viewer probably saw that scene as some kind of liberal media hypocrisy by highlighting the death of a mother and her child...

Personally I know what you're getting at though. For me personally, I agree with this article in my utter disgust at the Theon torture scenes. I actually fast-forwarded the most recent Theon scene while watching the show with my wife, something I rarely do as a viewer of anything. I actually saw some TMZ or E! Channel clip of David Benioff joking about how he looks forward to more Theon torture scenes and I was offended by that as well. The Theon torture is so fucked because it's so needless (Joffrey's insanely sadistic, even you can even call it sexual, habits are pretty repulsive as well). At least the Red Wedding played into the greater storyline and the shock was genuine.

I've always been horrified and bothered that torture-based horror films are so fucking tolerated in American media as well: The Saw series and Hostel especially. I'm not against them or censorship at all, in fact I feel completely opposite and think they should exist. I find the fact that they are packaged and promoted like any other major Hollywood film utterly disturbing. Much like you're comment about the Tea Party and recent anti-woman sentiment in US politics I can't help but notice all the wildly successful torture horror films of the 00s came out during the Iraq War: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splat_Pack No wonder the public is so seemingly apathetic to the horrors of contemporary war and brutality.

Joshua - Great post, it's like we live quite similar lives with fairly similar values. I don't ever fast-forward through scenes, but I draw the line at torture.

There's something being worked out in the minds of post-911 obsessed viewers and I'm trying very hard to temper my personal and political reactions to these portraits because, after all, this is how culture builds meaning from events. We write songs, or books; we make movies, and we make TV shows.

The sanitization of LOTR's universe in all its banal, binary morality doesn't allow for any transgressive humor, sex, or even horrific violence. Something is being worked out in a Jungian "shadow" sense, purgation or catharsis if you will, in Game of Thrones. The fact that Benioff claimed to enjoy the torture makes me nauseous, but if the end result is that people are horrified by it in the way that I am, then maybe his artistic pursuits have merit, however unintended or accidental. Will the body politic vote differently? Think differently at least?

That's a long-winded way of saying that I'm trying to be a good little poststructuralist in my reading of Game of Thrones, with regards to both the torture and the, at times, overwhelming misogyny.

Still, I have to say: binary morality isn't interesting to me, but neither is nihilism.

One other quick caveat:

A friend of mine pointed out the semi-hypocrisy of my being an enlightened guy and feeling the need to "protect" women, even virtual ones. Fair point. He went on to say that GoT is fairly equal opportunist when it comes to mutilation of men and women.

What's everyone carrying on aboot. I read the books & this wasn't very surprising. The scene was okay, but folks on internets are all like pfffffffffffffftttttttttttt...mind blown...fart...cry...nervous stretching...xanax.

meh...just me i gather.

Stabbin a fetus ain't cool though. I totally agree it's gross. word.

I'm curious to learn where Benioff talked about being excited for upcoming scenes of Theon being tortured...it would probably explain to some degree why he "went there" with the fetus stabbing.

How can you get offended by somone getting stabbed on TV.

Wow, i haven't heard this much political rhetoric on a fantasy series since Dune. Pretty sure this whole thing falls into the bucket of being able to distinguish fantasy from reality, and people who can will not become more apathetic to violence due to a fantasy TV show.

I can assure you that even though Theon gets castrated, I'm still against Guantanamo Bay.

TV stole my dreams

  On 6/4/2013 at 9:08 PM, sysyphus said:

Wow, i haven't heard this much political rhetoric on a fantasy series since Dune. Pretty sure this whole thing falls into the bucket of being able to distinguish fantasy from reality, and people who can will not become more apathetic to violence due to a fantasy TV show.

 

I can assure you that even though Theon gets castrated, I'm still against Guantanamo Bay.

Well, you might want to learn a bit about the author, because he's pretty much preoccupied with history and politics? lol.

Game of Thrones isn't generically fantasy; it's political allegory and historical drama.

This has been said a thousand times over, but George R R Martins direct reference for Game of Thrones, above the fantastical, was the War of the Roses.

Also, I think it is a little odd thatBenioff is so boner driven by the torture...BUT...it is a big part of the books, especially in the case of Theon. I WILL SAY NO MORE.

  On 6/4/2013 at 8:46 PM, Mirezzi said:

Joshua - Great post, it's like we live quite similar lives with fairly similar values. I don't ever fast-forward through scenes, but I draw the line at torture.

 

There's something being worked out in the minds of post-911 obsessed viewers and I'm trying very hard to temper my personal and political reactions to these portraits because, after all, this is how culture builds meaning from events. We write songs, or books; we make movies, and we make TV shows.

 

The sanitization of LOTR's universe in all its banal, binary morality doesn't allow for any transgressive humor, sex, or even horrific violence. Something is being worked out in a Jungian "shadow" sense, purgation or catharsis if you will, in Game of Thrones. The fact that Benioff claimed to enjoy the torture makes me nauseous, but if the end result is that people are horrified by it in the way that I am, then maybe his artistic pursuits have merit, however unintended or accidental. Will the body politic vote differently? Think differently at least?

 

That's a long-winded way of saying that I'm trying to be a good little poststructuralist in my reading of Game of Thrones, with regards to both the torture and the, at times, overwhelming misogyny.

 

Still, I have to say: binary morality isn't interesting to me, but neither is nihilism.

 

One other quick caveat:

 

A friend of mine pointed out the semi-hypocrisy of my being an enlightened guy and feeling the need to "protect" women, even virtual ones. Fair point. He went on to say that GoT is fairly equal opportunist when it comes to mutilation of men and women.

You're articulating what I thought quite well, and in a more intellectual way. (thnx brah) Regarding Benioff, the more I think about it he was probably just joking or even purposely trolling. It was a quick soundbite, and it was really the context (a "news" tidbit between some Amanda Bynes story and some other entertainment promo) that I found disturbing and surreal.

EDIT: here it is, it's a TMZ clip, no wonder it was so out of place. I didn't even hear all of this when I had the tv on, it was edited down and presented in a far more misleading way. He's clearly just bullshitting with some ridiculous TMZ interviewer.

I think you are dead-on about LOTR too, it really is the anti-Game of Thrones. I feel like jumping from LOTR to GOT is akin to the jump one makes as a kid from playing with toy soldiers that get "injured" in a abstract battle to outgrowing the notion of playing "war" overall and moving on to different forms of entertainment. I could go on this tangent but I don't want to digress...

Lastly, many have come to the same conclusion as your friend: http://jezebel.com/5993176/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-is-feminist-at-heart And yeah, I come across the same quasi-hypocritical* dilemma myself sometimes.

*I don't think it warrants a "semi-" lolz

  On 6/4/2013 at 9:14 PM, Mirezzi said:

Game of Thrones isn't generically fantasy; it's political allegory and historical drama.

 

And there are whitewalkers, dragons, and people who birth hideous demon babies. I'm well versed in GRRM's political discussions, and didn't mean to quell the discussion at hand. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the statements above about a "post 9-11" apathetic approach to violence.

The Benihoff TMZ babble I really take no stock in, as from what I hear he is excited for one of the characters in his TV show to continue to be defined by the behavior expressed by his captor.

This show Reeks of foul actions on the parts of the oppressors. Ironically, it is what makes A Song of Ice and Fire definitive. Also, Michelle Fairley deserves an Emmy nod, at the very least.

  On 6/4/2013 at 9:34 PM, thanks robert moses said:

This has been said a thousand times over, but George R R Martins direct reference for Game of Thrones, above the fantastical, was the War of the Roses.

Okay, well that helps, too. I didn't know that, but keep in mind, I'm very much an uninitiated reader of Game of Thrones the television show. I have no idea what's up with Martin or his books that hasn't been directly referenced in the (very few) articles I've read about the show.

  On 6/4/2013 at 9:43 PM, sysyphus said:

Also, Michelle Fairley deserves an Emmy nod, at the very least.

On this, you'll find no disagreement from me. In fact, I think the ensemble cast deserves an award. It was a fucking astonishing scene; technically, artistically, and of course with regards to performance. Richard Madden, Michelle Fairley, and even Oona Chaplin (she can be a bit wooden) are as much to blame for the power and impact of that scene as the writers!

  On 6/4/2013 at 9:39 PM, joshuatx said:

I feel like jumping from LOTR to GOT is akin to the jump one makes as a kid from playing with toy soldiers that get "injured" in a abstract battle to outgrowing the notion of playing "war" overall and moving on to different forms of entertainment. I could go on this tangent but I don't want to digress...

 

It's probably a worthwhile digression, but yeah, I hear ya.

The same analogy could apply to the recent mention of War of Roses. I watched War of Roses right about the time I was recovering from the damage dealt to my impressionable young male psyche by all the Young Adult Fiction and rom-coms of the 1980's and 90's. It was like, "Yes! About time somebody is fucking honest about how relationships can be and often are..."

By the way, I do indeed have a major boner for Oona Chaplin.

if you watch tmz you deserve what you get

Oona, soy muy romántico, de hecho!

boner for oona chaplin confirmed. anti-boner for theon greyjoy also confirmed. as much as i love LOTR bringing countless thousands into the fantasy genre and broadening their horizons in literature, i think it's a pretty tame series. i don't think of war when i think of LOTR, i think of hobbits walking to a mountain very slowly. when i think of GoT, i think of ruthlessness, the savagery of war, and amidst all the crap the ability to still make it out alive. i don't mean to rant, but the theon torture explicitly IS the theon character.

and no one yet has mentioned the rat-in-the-bucket torture in season 2? that was way more disturbing than anything theon went through. hell, varys already had his dick burned off, what's another greyjoy pen0rless.

Just finished watching the last episode. That was pretty bloody. Sorry that I don't know all the names, but the wildling chick that the Starks took in is awesome.

I love that the writing sucks you into the Stark family and they continuously bend them over. For someone that never read the books, the mind fuck is exceptionally good.

*lalala I can't hear you, still ain't up to the latest ep*

I don't think I've ever seen a show with so much resolved sexual tension.

Also, "Come try it archer, I'll shove those arrows up your ass!" Clegane

https://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh

  On 6/4/2013 at 5:25 PM, Mirezzi said:

Okay, I'll confess that I think it's a bit creepy and unsettling that HBO's showrunner, David Benioff, added shit to the Red Wedding that wasn't even in the book.

 

Talisa wasn't even in attendance, let alone brutally rape-baby-stabbed to death. When I was watching the scenes leading up to the insanity, I thought it was a really unmotivated bit of writing and I was questioning whether Martin was quite the hack. Why on earth would she have been in attendance? Anyway, definitely disturbing...I can understand why people found it offensive, especially within our current cultural context of Tea Party female-hating. If the idea was to hold a mirror to society, I suppose it succeeds as powerful symbolic representation.

Baby killing is nothing new in this world, Tywin's forces are known for killing babies and he being okay with it. I applaud the decision of killing Talisa because it was totally unexpected for a book-reader's perspective.

Also, these (freys/boltons) are the same people that decapitated Robb and sewed in his dire-wolf's head, these people are fucking brutal.

That's a bit of a spoiler.

All you bookreading fuckers need your own goddamn thread. Seriously.

The first part was not a spoiler, the second part was already spoiled like two pages ago (i dont think they'll show it on the show anyways)

My point that this is fiction and the author created a brutal world full of disturbed people, unfortunately in this world killing babies is acceptable behavior by some (specially by psychopaths like Jeofrey). At the end of the day you chose to watch the show, if you are offended by it you could watch something else less disturbing. I understand people react differently but everyone who was offended by Talisa's stabbing should have known better, if you made it this far what did you expect?