Reality Check

I thought it might be enlightening to some of you if you knew in depth the costs associated with running this site and the forum software, as we ask for donations to help with the hosting, so you should know where the money goes (and not to PS3 games as been suggested - I wish!). So, let's break it down:

Hosting (linode.com, VPS server) - 50USD/month

The reason we're on linode vs some budget host like in the past (as some of you old-timers might recall, we had some nasty experiences with those "too good to be true" hosts that only charge less than 10 bucks a month for hosting. With web hosting, it's true - you get what you pay for. Now, in 90% of the cases, those budget hosts are fine for some little fansite, or a personal blog or website, but when you have the traffic WATMM does (see the attached screenshot from our Google Analytics page), those hosts quickly become unsuitable (the primary reason we moved hosts was the CPU spiking on the MySQL server - our previous host's horribly oversold servers couldn't keep up with the usage demand. The dirty secret of these budget hosting companies is they "oversell" their services, hoping most, if not all of their customers never use the 1000GB and 1TB bandwidth a month most offer. Unfortunately for us, we did - the Downloads section when it was online, was approaching 30+GB. On the budget host, that wasn't much of an issue, but with a professional hosting company, they typically are much more realistic about the space and bandwidth you are given in order to provide reliable service and support. We'd have to pay upwards of 80USD/month for the storage and bandwidth needed to bring the Downloads back online like we had it. We're exploring options and solutions that hopefully don't involve increasing the hosting bill like that.

We didn't have any choice but to move to a reliable, stable host, one where if we did spike the CPU, it wouldn't result in the site being suspended (like in the past) or being forced to move for multiple violations of the limits they set. So that's why we pay (and ask you to help out when you can and want to) what we do to keep this place running so you all can benefit from it.

Now, most of you think that's where the expenses end, right? Nope. This forum software, Invision Power Board, is a paid software product. Are there free forums out there? Sure there are. Are they as good and as stable and feature-rich as IPB? Not by a long shot. IPB and Vbulletin are the two main commercial forums available (there are other commercial forum software available that sometimes is used by large corporate entities, but it is REALLY expensive and still (in our humble opinion) doesn't offer as much as IPB does. So, here's the breakdown:

Invision Power Board - 149.99/25.00USD (6 month license renewal)

IPB costs 25.00 every six months to keep the license active and ensures we get the latest patches, updates and new versions when they become available. In addition, we utilize some of their addons that also have initial and renewal costs:

Download module - 49.99/20.00USD (annual renewal)

Blog module - 49.99/20.00USD (annual renewal)

Chat module - 19.99/20 users concurrently (annual renewal)

We're not using the Download module at the moment (working on that, see the mention in the hosting part above), but the Blog module is used heavily here, and they were features requested by you - and they cost money. You can go to Invision's site yourself and see the costs associated. Sure, we could probably find a pirated version online somewhere, but if the hosting company or IPB themselves ever found out, the person responsible for that site would be in deep trouble, not to mention their site would get shut down pretty quick.

Occasionally, I've openly asked for donations when things got tough (not enough donations coming in, renewals due on the software licenses, etc. and you have come through in the past

for the most part - so far this year we've met the hosting for January and February, partially in March, and so far April's looking on target - but consider:

Annually, it costs 600.00USD in hosting costs.

Annually, it costs 110.00USD in software renewal fees.

I wanted to tell you all this so everyone understands that this is not a cash grab or money-making scheme of mine, and that there are real costs associated behind running a forum like this. Some of you have been so generous with donations in the past (last year is a good example), that hardly any costs came out of my pocket to support the site. Previous years that wasn't the case. This doesn't mean you have to spend 10, 20 or 30USD donating - if everyone gave a buck or two each month, we'd probably have more than enough cash to cover costs and reserves to do some really cool stuff I've always wanted to do, like e-commerce for the artists who make their own music, a music store to buy (and sell) physical and digital releases, classifieds, and more. No longer can I expect just myself to get all this done, so there again more revenue could afford us (literally) the ability to outsource this work (or find reliable volunteers to handle it) so WATMM can grow and keep on being the electronic music resource and community you've come to know and associate with.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and if you have any questions, feel free to post them here or PM me. And thanks again for all the years of support (financial and otherwise).

who said watmm was a cash grab? you'd have to be insane to think that...

  On 4/13/2011 at 12:20 AM, hahathhat said:

who said watmm was a cash grab? you'd have to be insane to think that...

Trust me - I've been accused of it plenty of times. Now to go back and roll in my pile of donation money and pet my baby giraffe on the treadmill

from that graph it actually looks like all our menstrual cycles have synced.

also fair play to ye joyrex. you are a patient man.

I think you're taking the jokes too seriously.

Thanks for info though JR. You should pin it.

  On 4/13/2011 at 12:23 AM, chassis said:

I think you're taking the jokes too seriously.

 

Thanks for info though JR. You should pin it.

Jokes I'm fine with - it's the personal attacks that bother me. I know it's hard to accept via a messageboard, but it takes quite a bit to get me upset, so when I do become "angry administrator" (I should change my avatar to a flaming demon or something during those times), it's been building up for some time.

Glad you liked the info - I think people will be surprised at the page views our humble little site gets...

Doesnt matter what you do, its internet, people love to hate. Its funny, cause most people you meet in life are sound (maybe thats my London liberal bubble, been here too long to expect any different) and you get in here(the wider here) and its full of people abusing folks dead reletives and shit. Only thing I can say is that im as much of a twat out there as I am in here =)

is there a reason there isn't a "donate here" link featured (prominently? probably not necessary) on every page, or at least as a pinned topic at the top of every sub(forum)?

have you ever considered including a banner image at the highest level of (perhaps) gen ban and music discussion, and offering members the ability to purchase that banner image for x # of days with an image of their choice (and of your approval, of course)? this could be an advert for an upcoming gig or release, or just something funny, etc.. i've seen this work on other forums and it seems like it could work here, eh?

in the meantime, i will give you a flower:

damn shit is pretty damn expensive... nice thread Joyrex

cheers 2 u

I thoguht the money scheme/PS3 games thing was a joke. Like most humans we're a cheap lazy bunch and probably need constant reminding that the site doesn't run on the power of idm (yet).

really, i wanna know... why does attendance rise and dip at a roughly monthly level?

are we all office slaves doing end-of-month reports? are we all having ass-periods?

it's interesting.

  On 4/13/2011 at 1:00 AM, kaini said:

really, i wanna know... why does attendance rise and dip at a roughly monthly level?

are we all office slaves doing end-of-month reports? are we all having ass-periods?

 

it's interesting.

by the last week people have spent their bar money for the month, and must seek alternate entertainment.

watmm is quite good.

and pricey.

appreciate all you do joyrex. get rid of the invite-only elite club and i'll pay you again next year.

  On 4/13/2011 at 1:21 AM, luke viia said:

appreciate all you do joyrex. get rid of the invite-only elite club and i'll pay you again next year.

This.

  On 4/13/2011 at 1:47 AM, The Overlook said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 1:21 AM, luke viia said:

appreciate all you do joyrex. get rid of the invite-only elite club and i'll pay you again next year.

This.

i'll pay again next year regardless, but this as well.

Stealing IPB and the content framework from this site was funny, but IPB isn't likely to think so...

Just throwing it out there - I've virtually not touched the chat or blog? functionality here and have no interest in doing so. My vote would be you can drop that.

As for downloads, would it not be cheaper to seek help from the community here to mirror the downloads on free file hosting sites such as mediafire? In my experience they (mediafire at least) have great speed, file retention and general site uptime. It can be tedious but considering most of the Downloads section seemed to be sourced from members it doesn't seem like a stretch that people would be happy to take the time and bandwidth out once again to do this. I for one would be happy to.

Thank you for your continued efforts on this forum and the website, once upon a time. Been visiting since the joyrex.com days.

*edit*

Don't forget torrents either. Torrents are virtually free. That said I personally don't have the bandwidth to spare to sit on a torrent for an extended period of time to maintain the seed. My internet plan only allows for 80kb/s upload and I download ~100gb of concerts a month from sites that require me to maintain a ratio.

I appreciate the costs and work you do Joyrex but when you say things about how you don't have a relationship with your members and you retain the right to disappear people Pinochet style and such it makes it feel like a bit of a shit investment

compare Watmm to reddit for a laugh

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:26 AM, usagi said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:21 AM, Coalbucket PI said:

I appreciate the costs and work you do Joyrex but when you say things about how you don't have a relationship with your members...

 

he took that back

Word, just read through that thread. Fair enough. Still I feel a kind of temperament problem that makes me feel like I could get banned over nothing or people I find entertaining just disappear unexpectedly, that's what makes me nervous about putting money in.

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:16 AM, Space Coyote said:

Don't forget torrents either. Torrents are virtually free. That said I personally don't have the bandwidth to spare to sit on a torrent for an extended period of time to maintain the seed. My internet plan only allows for 80kb/s upload and I download ~100gb of concerts a month from sites that require me to maintain a ratio.

fucking yes times a zillion

even if the tracker were to be hosted within the watmm domain, all it would require was a couple of kilobytes max per torrent - all other traffic would be p2p. as long as it was appropriately monitored to prevent sharing of copyrighted material, this would be a trouble-free way to bring back the live recordings section. i for one would be more than happy to keep an eye on shit, and i'm sure there are plenty other people willing to do the same.

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:33 AM, Coalbucket PI said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:26 AM, usagi said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:21 AM, Coalbucket PI said:

I appreciate the costs and work you do Joyrex but when you say things about how you don't have a relationship with your members...

 

he took that back

Word, just read through that thread. Fair enough. Still I feel a kind of temperament problem that makes me feel like I could get banned over nothing or people I find entertaining just disappear unexpectedly, that's what makes me nervous about putting money in.

well said

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:40 AM, lumpenprol said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:33 AM, Coalbucket PI said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:26 AM, usagi said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:21 AM, Coalbucket PI said:

I appreciate the costs and work you do Joyrex but when you say things about how you don't have a relationship with your members...

 

he took that back

Word, just read through that thread. Fair enough. Still I feel a kind of temperament problem that makes me feel like I could get banned over nothing or people I find entertaining just disappear unexpectedly, that's what makes me nervous about putting money in.

 

well said

Yep. I'll also say for the 500,000th time...why make all these "banishments" permanent?

Often, these things just seem to be petty.

  On 4/13/2011 at 3:34 AM, The Overlook said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:40 AM, lumpenprol said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:33 AM, Coalbucket PI said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:26 AM, usagi said:

  On 4/13/2011 at 2:21 AM, Coalbucket PI said:

I appreciate the costs and work you do Joyrex but when you say things about how you don't have a relationship with your members...

 

he took that back

Word, just read through that thread. Fair enough. Still I feel a kind of temperament problem that makes me feel like I could get banned over nothing or people I find entertaining just disappear unexpectedly, that's what makes me nervous about putting money in.

 

well said

Yep. I'll also say for the 500,000th time...why make all these "banishments" permanent?

 

Often, these things just seem to be petty.

why make all these 'dupe accounts'? often, these things just seem to be petty.