EURO 2012

  On 6/25/2012 at 5:48 PM, Blue Peter Cheat said:

Phil Jones is another, and Smalling, and I don't think Wellbeck would have travelled if he didn't play for Man U. I like him but he would not have gone.

I don't get it, then who else would have gone? Name two more English defenders who were fit and ready. And who else up front? Holt and Crouch, and that's it.

Let's be realistic. These players are at the bigger clubs because they've already impressed at the middle-clubs, and so impressively that they've been signed before they're 25 and fully earned their dues. They're not coming into form at middle-clubs and impressing amongst mediocre players or being used as the focus-point of a team.

Richards definitely would have gone and Smalling was replaced anyway (Jagieika? can't remember). And yeah, I think Crouch would have gone ahead of Welbeck.

Jones at Blackburn would not have been picked. Smalling at Fulham would not have been picked. Under 21s yep, defintely. Senior team, nope.

Henderson is the starkest example, he went from a good season at Sunderland, where he played more games than anyone else at the club, to a bad one the following year at Liverpool where he was often a sub.

  On 6/25/2012 at 5:08 PM, Gary C said:

Yep. Hargreaves is the only English player I know of who performed his best football abroad, but even then, he was mostly forgotten about until he moved to United.

He came from Canada and started his pro career in the Bundesliga, so he had very little English ties. What strikes me is that England produce a lot of hard working and tough players but very little players that have finesse and smarts. And on the international level hard work can only get you so far and the margins between the top teams are so small and individual talent is what makes the difference and England doesn't seem to have it like some other teams. Or look at Germany, probably not the most skilled team, but it seems to me their football association has made a clear plan and organized structure in developing new players which the national league teams also buy into and have a clear identity from the get go which has already brought them some success.

I read an article a while back about the trend with African midfielders. The successful ones were big, powerful athletes. Why? Because at the time that was what the European market demanded. So African countries seemed to be producing more in that mould than in a creative one. Or so the author argued.

I'm probably grasping at straws here but what does the English Premier League demand?

  On 6/25/2012 at 6:39 PM, Blue Peter Cheat said:

I'm probably grasping at straws here but what does the English Premier League demand?

Defensive midfield scrappers. Fast wingers (technical skills not essential). Strong and tall strikers. Centre-backs that can pass.

For the last 20 years the PL has had mostly foreign playmakers. Fabregas, Modric, Alonso, Silva, Toure, Giggs (technically).

Only Scholes, Gerrard and to some degree Lampard have played that role for top English teams.

But in recent years (since Hoddle's England reign actually) there's been a lot of focus on training kids in technical skills first. Obviously the Barca model is best; have the kids with a ball at their feet constantly, dribbling all the time and passing short distances in their sleep. There's clear signs of progress. It used to be that Joe Cole was the only English player capable of performing a step-over or dribbling for more than 10 metres. We're getting closer, and there's no need to rush it.

I agree but in the end it's the premier league clubs who decide who makes it, not the FA. Hopefully Barcelona and Swansea might push some of the clubs into reassessing what they require to succeed. It may never happen though, Arsenal arguably play the most technique-based passing game and they are some distance off winning the league, let alone the champions league. Part of that is down to their reluctance to pay big wages. If Man City continually fail in the CL, losing out to Barcelona-ish teams, and are held to account via the financial fair play rules so they can't just buy a ridiculous amount of foreign players, they may have to lead the way to a change in English football culture. (This may well be far-fetched or just complete drivel, apologies).

Man City have constructed a state-of-the-art training and development 'village', so they're well aware that buying players isn't going to last forever.

Here's that article: http://inbedwithmaradona.com/journal/2011/11/7/is-europe-killing-the-african-playmaker.html

I got it wrong, it wasn't that creative players weren't emerging, it was that European clubs were only scouting for the powerful, athletic types. The creative ones were left behind.

If Chelsea can win the champions league with their style of play is there much incentive to change? Strong English defensive players backed up by some European technique. Why change that model? If Man City do promote technique above strength in English players it may even be worth suffering their domination for a while.

We were terrible!

re: English players not playing outside of England. It is nothing to do with them not being good enough. It is everything to do with the UK being the U.S.A of Europe. The idea of not playing in England/learning another language is unthinkable for them.

I'll tell you what...it doesn't get more 'continental' than Ashley Young. That diving cunt has cost Italy rightback Christian Maggio for the semifinal. Between that and UEFA's idiotic scheduling which gave Germany two extra days of rest, Italy will be totally spent on Thursday.

What in the hell happened against Italy?

Hart did a good job defending through 120 minutes of gameplay, and then let it all go to pot in the shootout.

Italy deserved to win though; they played a much better game than England.

  On 6/25/2012 at 10:04 PM, The Overlook said:

I'll tell you what...it doesn't get more 'continental' than Ashley Young. That diving cunt has cost Italy rightback Christian Maggio for the semifinal. Between that and UEFA's idiotic scheduling which gave Germany two extra days of rest, Italy will be totally spent on Thursday.

Already with the excuses for when Die Mannschaft shafts the Azzurri?

  On 6/25/2012 at 10:41 PM, azatoth said:

  On 6/25/2012 at 10:04 PM, The Overlook said:

I'll tell you what...it doesn't get more 'continental' than Ashley Young. That diving cunt has cost Italy rightback Christian Maggio for the semifinal. Between that and UEFA's idiotic scheduling which gave Germany two extra days of rest, Italy will be totally spent on Thursday.

 

Already with the excuses for when Die Mannschaft shafts the Azzurri?

LOL, I was thinking the same thing. Germany's going to make Der Weinershnitzel out of Italy.

RE: CL - since 2004, only clubs from three nations have won the CL - Spain, Italy , and England. English clubs have won it 3 times, as have Spanish clubs (well, club - lol Barca). Italian clubs have won it twice. England have had 5 runners up in that time. England is also the only nation in the last 10 years to have clubs represent both finalists (prior to that was Italy in 2002-2003, with Milan and Juventus). Finally, in the last decade, England has had 5 clubs be represented in the finals. Italy is next with 3 then Germany, Spain, Portugal and France have all had once club represent.

So to say that the PL is not competitive is ridiculous. The problem arises from the style of play that is dominant in England - where strong athletes are groomed before strong footballers. This will change though, especially with more English teams being represented in the NextGen series.

Joyrex - a penalty shootout is a totally different beast than regular play, to say Joe Hart let it go to pot in the shootout is a bit silly.

Also, Italy will make it interesting, but it's a shame about the scheduling allowing Germany 2 extra days rest. Pirlo best be getting all kinds of massages.

  On 6/26/2012 at 12:32 AM, chenGOD said:

RE: CL - since 2004, only clubs from three nations have won the CL - Spain, Italy , and England. English clubs have won it 3 times, as have Spanish clubs (well, club - lol Barca). Italian clubs have won it twice. England have had 5 runners up in that time. England is also the only nation in the last 10 years to have clubs represent both finalists (prior to that was Italy in 2002-2003, with Milan and Juventus). Finally, in the last decade, England has had 5 clubs be represented in the finals. Italy is next with 3 then Germany, Spain, Portugal and France have all had once club represent.

So to say that the PL is not competitive is ridiculous. The problem arises from the style of play that is dominant in England - where strong athletes are groomed before strong footballers. This will change though, especially with more English teams being represented in the NextGen series.

I don't see how champions league success equals a competitive domestic league. (As for the five clubs represented, four different clubs qualify every year and five qualified for 05-06).

Premier League competitiveness analysed: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/oct/19/the-question-how-competitive-premier-league

  On 6/26/2012 at 8:18 AM, Blue Peter Cheat said:

  On 6/26/2012 at 12:32 AM, chenGOD said:

RE: CL - since 2004, only clubs from three nations have won the CL - Spain, Italy , and England. English clubs have won it 3 times, as have Spanish clubs (well, club - lol Barca). Italian clubs have won it twice. England have had 5 runners up in that time. England is also the only nation in the last 10 years to have clubs represent both finalists (prior to that was Italy in 2002-2003, with Milan and Juventus). Finally, in the last decade, England has had 5 clubs be represented in the finals. Italy is next with 3 then Germany, Spain, Portugal and France have all had once club represent.

So to say that the PL is not competitive is ridiculous. The problem arises from the style of play that is dominant in England - where strong athletes are groomed before strong footballers. This will change though, especially with more English teams being represented in the NextGen series.

 

I don't see how champions league success equals a competitive domestic league. (As for the five clubs represented, four different clubs qualify every year and five qualified for 05-06).

 

Premier League competitiveness analysed: http://www.guardian....-premier-league

I thought you meant competitive with other leagues. I know about the qualification, I'm talking about representation in the actual final. I would argue a wider spread of teams capable of winning the CL or making it to the final match means a more competitive domestic league, as that means more diversity of talent.

I would be much more interested in seeing how often a lower half of the table team beat a top half of the table team.

Also, you can't count anything from Italy, cause who the fuck knows what matches are fixed. :D

slightly NSFW:

fucking lol. english desperation at its finest.

Man's gonna need a bigger cock if that's going to work.

  On 6/26/2012 at 8:54 AM, chenGOD said:

I thought you meant competitive with other leagues. I know about the qualification, I'm talking about representation in the actual final. I would argue a wider spread of teams capable of winning the CL or making it to the final match means a more competitive domestic league, as that means more diversity of talent.

 

I would be much more interested in seeing how often a lower half of the table team beat a top half of the table team.

Also, you can't count anything from Italy, cause who the fuck knows what matches are fixed. :D

I think it suggests there's more competitiveness amongst the top teams, but the analysis in that article indicates a decreasing competitveness in the league as a whole.

Wilson interprets:

  Quote

The trend since then [2001], though, is clear: the top pulling away from the bottom, the league becoming more and more stretched. The figures for the past seasons do suggest increased competitiveness at the top, with the gap from first to fourth smaller in the past five years than the five before that, but the effect of that has merely been to stretch the gap from fourth to fourth bottom

(It's all money, and where the majority of it is pooled).

True about Italy. Who's to say that ref in the recent qaurter final didn't drive home eating Cornettoes and pizza in his new Lamborghini?

  On 6/26/2012 at 10:37 AM, Gary C said:

Man's gonna need a bigger cock if that's going to work.

The tiniest cock ever would be most effective

  On 6/26/2012 at 12:27 PM, Blue Peter Cheat said:

  On 6/26/2012 at 8:54 AM, chenGOD said:

I thought you meant competitive with other leagues. I know about the qualification, I'm talking about representation in the actual final. I would argue a wider spread of teams capable of winning the CL or making it to the final match means a more competitive domestic league, as that means more diversity of talent.

 

I would be much more interested in seeing how often a lower half of the table team beat a top half of the table team.

Also, you can't count anything from Italy, cause who the fuck knows what matches are fixed. :D

 

I think it suggests there's more competitiveness amongst the top teams, but the analysis in that article indicates a decreasing competitveness in the league as a whole.

 

Wilson interprets:

  Quote

The trend since then [2001], though, is clear: the top pulling away from the bottom, the league becoming more and more stretched. The figures for the past seasons do suggest increased competitiveness at the top, with the gap from first to fourth smaller in the past five years than the five before that, but the effect of that has merely been to stretch the gap from fourth to fourth bottom

Explain Newcastle then? Spurs? How are newly promoted Swansea able to win or draw vs 3 of the top 4 at home?

And the Spanish league was ridiculous, it was Real Madrid, Barca and then a whole lot of daylight. And in Spain last season the gap from first to last was considerably more than in the premier league.

The league is not the issue - it's the style of play that is expected from the type of English players that get picked. The EPL routinely bring in foreign players to be the "craft" players.

Come on, you fuckers! Who we gonna cheer for?

Not lying, I actually can't be bothered to support one side or the other. I detest, with every fiber of my being, all things Vicky Christina Ronaldo. Yet, I don't know that I won't somehow manage to exalt nonetheless if he bags a brace during the Spanish midfield passing drills.

I'll be pulling for Real Madrid + Nani to take down Barca lite.