IDF have told The Times they expect to invade Gaza this weekend.

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:40 AM, Awepittance said:

here is a pretty thorough timeline of events, but ill find one that gives a more clear picture of what happened before late October, this new conflict didn't just arise out of nothing

 

http://electronicint...ragedy-timeline

you for real ? a "thorough timeline of events" from an extremely pro palestinian source ?

wikipedia and reddit are better for such things

  On 11/20/2012 at 3:06 AM, compson said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:56 AM, Alcofribas said:

compson, the idf has a pretty grim record using palestinians as human shields. are you not aware of this or are you ignoring it because you think it's ok when they do it?

 

  Quote

The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

 

Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]

 

That tactic has been banned in Israel for quite some time. Only the cowardly terrorists use it nowadays, shooting from civilian population and defending themselves with children.

What are you talking about, it says that the Defense Ministry appealed the decision and it is still in use by the IDF, although in lesser numbers.

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:29 AM, Brian Tregaskin said:

 

well, plenty of people are having doubts on the reasons why jews died in concentration camps and the circumstances of how that happened.

lol, ladies and gentlemen, you see here an example of old-school European racism. It was so much more wholesome before black people and Muslims lived here and we could focus in our real enemy - "international finance"

I mean come on man I deplore Israel's actions too but it's shit like this that gives French people a bad name. Well, it's ONE of the things.

This thread is going really well and I'm sure there will be peace in the middle east now. Great work u gaiz!

Peace

In the middle

east

no.

I love when watmm is discussing politics

  On 11/20/2012 at 9:53 AM, Gocab said:

Great work u gaiz!

  On 11/20/2012 at 8:52 AM, Iain C said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:29 AM, Brian Tregaskin said:

well, plenty of people are having doubts on the reasons why jews died in concentration camps and the circumstances of how that happened.

 

lol, ladies and gentlemen, you see here an example of old-school European racism. It was so much more wholesome before black people and Muslims lived here and we could focus in our real enemy - "international finance"

 

I mean come on man I deplore Israel's actions too but it's shit like this that gives French people a bad name. Well, it's ONE of the things.

if questionning history is racism in your book, then i guess yeah, i'm a racist.

  On 11/20/2012 at 4:52 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:29 AM, Brian Tregaskin said:

  On 11/19/2012 at 10:50 PM, compson said:

  On 11/19/2012 at 9:32 PM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

what needs to be revised about the official thesis of the holocaust?

 

there are plenty, and I mean plenty of academic interpretations and new analyses and critiques of the Holocaust. what isn't allowed (and honestly shouldn't be allowed) is writing that denies the Holocaust, a different beast altogether.

 

I don't know what you feel needs to be "revised" about the Holocaust.

 

I'm still waiting for what needs to be publicized on french TV about the zionist. And specifically speaking. Complaining that there aren't outcries concerning some global zionist conspiracy (while perhaps legitimate) is clearly something no media publication is gonna want to tout too heavily for it would be a baseless allegation.

 

well, plenty of people are having doubts on the reasons why jews died in concentration camps and the circumstances of how that happened. no one denies the fact that lots of jews died in concentration camps. again, from a french point of view, i just think that anyone should be allowed to make historical research freely on that topic, and publicize it, but in france the topic is locked, it's a forbidden zone. you don't have the right to doubt publicly of the official thesis on the holocaust and law punishes it. which,to me, is weird in a so-called democracy.

to answer compson, i personnaly don't know what specifically needs to be publicized about zionists on french tv. my knowledge on the matter is too limited. i just find it absurd and suspicious that in france, everytime a person openly criticizes the actions of some jews or pro-israeli people, he gets the same treatment, which i described in a previous post.

and personnally, if conspiracy there is, i already said i think that zionists are only part of a bigger conspiracy, no i don't think they're the masters of the universe, they only want to have the biggest piece of cake they can, like the other lobbies. this rothschild dude is quite suspicious though haha

 

what......

 

what?

 

what are the reasons jews were sent to the concentration camps that hasn't been reported or addressed? i'd love to hear this bombshell.

i don't personally know. i just don't buy official history anymore. i think that history is an instrument of power (typical conspirationist thought pattern) and therefore, i don't buy the official thesis.

to answer compson, yeah, i agree that conspirationism can be a trap if you limit yourself to a paradigm in which one simple cause explains all consequences. i'd love it if a jewish conspiracy could explain all that happened and currently happens in the world but i don't think things are that simple. but there are definitely conspiracies. maybe they're not to be taken as pieces of a puzzle that would explain the entire world but still they're intriguing.

conspirationism isn't an english word. fuck

  On 11/20/2012 at 8:05 AM, azatoth said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 3:06 AM, compson said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:56 AM, Alcofribas said:

compson, the idf has a pretty grim record using palestinians as human shields. are you not aware of this or are you ignoring it because you think it's ok when they do it?

 

  Quote

The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

 

Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]

 

That tactic has been banned in Israel for quite some time. Only the cowardly terrorists use it nowadays, shooting from civilian population and defending themselves with children.

 

What are you talking about, it says that the Defense Ministry appealed the decision and it is still in use by the IDF, although in lesser numbers.

"The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005"

Isn't the Israeli encroachment on the Hamas settlements also illegal according to international law? I guess they respect their own laws more than they do international law, makes sense.

Here's a video demonstrating how Israel gives fair warning about bombings to Gaza before: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=25b_1353346795

  Quote

Anderson Cooper ‏@andersoncooper

 

Quote:

a half dozen men on motorcycles just dragged the body of a man down a main street in #Gaza. They were yelling he was a spy for Israel

  Quote

Tim Marshall ‏@Skytwitius

 

Israel army orders Gaza City residents to evacuate 'immediately': leaflet

  Quote

A man stabbed a security guard at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv on Tuesday and was apprehended by police, a police spokesman said. The guard opened fire during the attack.

 

Israel Radio reported that according to the police, the attacker, who was armed with a knife and axe, was not wounded. Security guards shot at the assailant, a 41-year-old Israeli from Bat Yam, but did not wound him. One of the security guards sustained light wounds to his leg.

Bit of information on how this conflict escalated:

  Quote

"The events which threaten the lull arrangement and cast a question mark over its validity began on November 4. Following information about Hamas's preparations to abduct IDF soldiers through a tunnel, the IDF operated near the border. The operation prevented the planned attack and killed seven Hamas terrorist operatives. Hamas reacted with massive rocket and mortar shell fire, unprecedented since the lull arrangement went into effect. After the immediate barrages, sporadic rocket and mortar shell fire continued (carried out by the smaller terrorist organizations). Israel responded by closing the Gaza Strip crossings.

 

Another event occurred on November 12, when the IDF killed four Hamas terrorist operatives who tried to lay an IED near the border security fence. The Palestinian terrorist organizations, led by Hamas, again fired dozens of rockets and mortar shells at western Negev population centers, including the town of Sderot and city of Ashqelon . The fire, in various quantities, continued uninterrupted for four days."

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/18387

  On 11/20/2012 at 4:04 PM, compson said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 8:05 AM, azatoth said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 3:06 AM, compson said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:56 AM, Alcofribas said:

compson, the idf has a pretty grim record using palestinians as human shields. are you not aware of this or are you ignoring it because you think it's ok when they do it?

 

  Quote

The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

 

Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]

 

That tactic has been banned in Israel for quite some time. Only the cowardly terrorists use it nowadays, shooting from civilian population and defending themselves with children.

 

What are you talking about, it says that the Defense Ministry appealed the decision and it is still in use by the IDF, although in lesser numbers.

 

"The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005"

From the Goldstone Report on the 2009 Gaza War:

"The report also accused Israel of using Palestinians as "human shields" and torturing detainees.[81] The human shields accusations were supported in 2010, with Israel charging two soldiers with forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open bags suspected of containing bombs.[82]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Human_shields_allegations

Oh OK, nevermind, they don't really care about those either.

lol

Says the soldiers were charged...

  Quote

The soldiers, who served as staff sergeants in the Givati Brigade during Operation Cast Lead, allegedly forced a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosive materials. The bags turned out to be harmless.

The soldiers, who breached the army's rule against using civilians as human shields during war, will be tried for violating their authority and for inappropriate conduct. An Israeli military official said the soldiers could face up to three years in jail.

IDF soldiers most definitely commit war crimes, not denying this. Just saying that Israel has laws and sends IDF soldiers who abuse those laws to prison. The sentencing arguably should be more strict.

Another note is:

  Quote

The rockets and mortars being fired are clearly intended to kill. That they fail to do so (or that they only injure rather than kill) makes them no less "peace breaking" acts of aggression than the Israeli attacks which manage to be far more effective.

 

Trying to make out that rocket and mortar attacks don't actually count is just ridiculous.

I don't get why you're so vehemently defending the IDF. My point is they fucked up, irreparably, on a huge scale. The word genocide comes to mind. They aren't being held accountable for it by anyone.

  On 11/20/2012 at 6:20 PM, sweepstakes said:

I don't get why you're so vehemently defending the IDF. My point is they fucked up, irreparably, on a huge scale. The word genocide comes to mind. They aren't being held accountable for it by anyone.

I would agree the IDF is trigger happy, and is not afraid to start a bloody circle, however the IDF's purpose is to keep Israel peaceful and safe, the best thing for them would be for Hamas to stop any hostility's and lie down their arms. Hamas's purpose, more then anything else, is to gain worldwide attention to israel's action in the west bank and Gaza strip as to apply international pressure, and retain their seat of power in the Gaza strip, a total cease fire does not serve these purposes.

Hamas has/was supported because of their ability to feed the people of Palestine. However Israel since 2010, does not restrict any food from entering the west bank, nothing, all food is permitted, quantity wise as well. Though not enough medical supplies are brought in to the Gaza strip.

  On 11/20/2012 at 5:18 PM, Alcofribas said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 4:04 PM, compson said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 8:05 AM, azatoth said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 3:06 AM, compson said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:56 AM, Alcofribas said:

compson, the idf has a pretty grim record using palestinians as human shields. are you not aware of this or are you ignoring it because you think it's ok when they do it?

 

  Quote

The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

 

Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]

 

That tactic has been banned in Israel for quite some time. Only the cowardly terrorists use it nowadays, shooting from civilian population and defending themselves with children.

 

What are you talking about, it says that the Defense Ministry appealed the decision and it is still in use by the IDF, although in lesser numbers.

 

"The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005"

 

From the Goldstone Report on the 2009 Gaza War:

 

"The report also accused Israel of using Palestinians as "human shields" and torturing detainees.[81] The human shields accusations were supported in 2010, with Israel charging two soldiers with forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open bags suspected of containing bombs.[82]"

 

http://en.wikipedia....lds_allegations

you're putting hamas' acceptable modus operandi with relatively few cases of idf abuse of the same tactic on the same scale.

  Quote

@Reuters: ISRAEL AND GAZA MILITANTS AGREE TO EGYPTIAN-BROKERED CEASEFIRE - HAMAS OFFICIAL AYMAN TAHA

  Quote

DF soldier killed by Hamas rocket attack.

 

English translation of IDF (@idfonline) tweet:

 

"Corporal Joseph Petrucci, 18, Emanuel, was killed today as a result of a [rocket] launched at the Eshkol Regional Council. We send our condolences to the family."

Yeah, great cease fire progress.

I see Israel is still shelling too.

  Quote

US blocks UN Security Council call for Gaza cease-fire as unbalanced against Israel.

.

  On 11/20/2012 at 7:27 PM, eugene said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 5:18 PM, Alcofribas said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 4:04 PM, compson said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 8:05 AM, azatoth said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 3:06 AM, compson said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:56 AM, Alcofribas said:

compson, the idf has a pretty grim record using palestinians as human shields. are you not aware of this or are you ignoring it because you think it's ok when they do it?

 

  Quote

The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

 

Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]

 

That tactic has been banned in Israel for quite some time. Only the cowardly terrorists use it nowadays, shooting from civilian population and defending themselves with children.

 

What are you talking about, it says that the Defense Ministry appealed the decision and it is still in use by the IDF, although in lesser numbers.

 

"The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005"

 

From the Goldstone Report on the 2009 Gaza War:

 

"The report also accused Israel of using Palestinians as "human shields" and torturing detainees.[81] The human shields accusations were supported in 2010, with Israel charging two soldiers with forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open bags suspected of containing bombs.[82]"

 

http://en.wikipedia....lds_allegations

you're putting hamas' acceptable modus operandi with relatively few cases of idf abuse of the same tactic on the same scale.

are war crimes ok in moderation, eugene?

you're talking about "scale?" you mean like, 3 dead israelis vs 113 palestinians? like that kind of scale??

what a fucking joke man.

  On 11/20/2012 at 7:27 PM, eugene said:

you're putting hamas' acceptable modus operandi with cases of idf abuse of the same tactic on the same scale.

This.

Hamas has purposely operated out of schools, hospitals, and refuge camps in order to get Israel to inflict civilian casualties. They take every opportunity possible to not just to exploit Palestinian civilian deaths, but to cause them. I don't even find the rocket attacks on civilians as offensive as the fact that Hamas then directs civilians to "shelter" in the same buildings and city blocks they had just launched rockets from.

I know the counter to this will probably be, albeit with more citations likely: "Israel is the aggressor! The problem is clearly Zionism and a Jewish conspiracy, I mean, I'm not racist but...well I know little about Zionism or Israeli politics, please inform me! Whatever, FUCK ISRAEL blah blah blah! etc."

I can't and won't apologize or excuse or try to contextualize IDF human rights abuses but it appears no fiercely anti-Israeli watmmer can acknowledge the fact that Hamas is a radical, fundamentalist terrorist group that tortures and oppresses it's own people in order to maintain power and push it's agenda or wiping Israel of the map. They brutalize internal political parties in Gaza, they propagate anti-Semitic rhetoric to their supporters, and they continue to exploit the plight of Palestinians with absolutely no sincere effort for peace and compromise. They are despicable and evil as the Israelis who want to eliminate the existence of any Palestinian state. I know (or at least hope) one here actually condones them or their tactics but for the record: Fuck Hamas. I won't say "Fuck Palestine" because unlike anyone who write "Fuck Israel" instead of say "Fuck the Israeli government" on these threads, I don't lump citizens of diverse political and religious ideologies into one convenient but inaccurate national label.

Fuck. This is why I knew I should of fucking stop reading this thread days ago. :/

  On 11/20/2012 at 3:52 PM, Brian Tregaskin said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 8:52 AM, Iain C said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:29 AM, Brian Tregaskin said:

well, plenty of people are having doubts on the reasons why jews died in concentration camps and the circumstances of how that happened.

 

lol, ladies and gentlemen, you see here an example of old-school European racism. It was so much more wholesome before black people and Muslims lived here and we could focus in our real enemy - "international finance"

 

I mean come on man I deplore Israel's actions too but it's shit like this that gives French people a bad name. Well, it's ONE of the things.

 

if questionning history is racism in your book, then i guess yeah, i'm a racist.

 

  On 11/20/2012 at 4:52 AM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

  On 11/20/2012 at 2:29 AM, Brian Tregaskin said:

  On 11/19/2012 at 10:50 PM, compson said:

  On 11/19/2012 at 9:32 PM, Smettingham Rutherford IV said:

what needs to be revised about the official thesis of the holocaust?

 

there are plenty, and I mean plenty of academic interpretations and new analyses and critiques of the Holocaust. what isn't allowed (and honestly shouldn't be allowed) is writing that denies the Holocaust, a different beast altogether.

 

I don't know what you feel needs to be "revised" about the Holocaust.

 

I'm still waiting for what needs to be publicized on french TV about the zionist. And specifically speaking. Complaining that there aren't outcries concerning some global zionist conspiracy (while perhaps legitimate) is clearly something no media publication is gonna want to tout too heavily for it would be a baseless allegation.

 

well, plenty of people are having doubts on the reasons why jews died in concentration camps and the circumstances of how that happened. no one denies the fact that lots of jews died in concentration camps. again, from a french point of view, i just think that anyone should be allowed to make historical research freely on that topic, and publicize it, but in france the topic is locked, it's a forbidden zone. you don't have the right to doubt publicly of the official thesis on the holocaust and law punishes it. which,to me, is weird in a so-called democracy.

to answer compson, i personnaly don't know what specifically needs to be publicized about zionists on french tv. my knowledge on the matter is too limited. i just find it absurd and suspicious that in france, everytime a person openly criticizes the actions of some jews or pro-israeli people, he gets the same treatment, which i described in a previous post.

and personnally, if conspiracy there is, i already said i think that zionists are only part of a bigger conspiracy, no i don't think they're the masters of the universe, they only want to have the biggest piece of cake they can, like the other lobbies. this rothschild dude is quite suspicious though haha

 

what......

 

what?

 

what are the reasons jews were sent to the concentration camps that hasn't been reported or addressed? i'd love to hear this bombshell.

 

i don't personally know. i just don't buy official history anymore. i think that history is an instrument of power (typical conspirationist thought pattern) and therefore, i don't buy the official thesis.

to answer compson, yeah, i agree that conspirationism can be a trap if you limit yourself to a paradigm in which one simple cause explains all consequences. i'd love it if a jewish conspiracy could explain all that happened and currently happens in the world but i don't think things are that simple. but there are definitely conspiracies. maybe they're not to be taken as pieces of a puzzle that would explain the entire world but still they're intriguing.

It makes no sense to talk about whose violence is the lesser. Both parties need to leave each other alone. And as mentioned before, Israel is in the position to make the first move.