IDF have told The Times they expect to invade Gaza this weekend.

  On 11/26/2012 at 4:50 PM, compson said:

  On 11/26/2012 at 1:24 PM, yikes said:

my solution is far outside the box.

i believe there is an ingrained hatred on both sides that encapsulates the stupidity of humanity and it's penchant for violence/war and the idiotic ingrained belief that my invisible god is better than the other guy's.

 

With the profuse amount of wealth in many of the oil rich arab/muslim countries I would like to see BILLIONS poured into what's left of Palestine and have the infrastructure and economy rebulit to the point that everyone in the territory is employed/educated housed and properly fed and or on the dole,much like what goes on in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

I see it being turned into a huge version of downtown DUBAI with endless shopping malls.apartment complexes,skyscrapers,entertainment centers,resorts,nightclubs,car dealerships etc AND light manufacturing complexes,vocational /educational systems that are dependent upon israeli goods/money or labor -to force the 2 parties to co-exisit in a money making program of an industrial nature.

I realize this is a utopian dream and in reality the United States will continue to prop up Israel with billions in arms and funds and Iran/egypt will continue to trickle in just enough weaponry and money to keep HAMAS armed and politically viable.

 

It's a nice idea and I agree with the basic concept but would this new wealth not have the potential to be used/transferred into more powerful weapons? Basically you are calling for the westernization of the Middle East. So ultimately I agree that is the solution to ridding religious rhetoric and ignorance. Not that the US/West doesn't have its fair share of radical religious power suits but the general population is shifting further and further away from those traps and is becoming more agnostic.

not agnostic, atheist. its worse than most religious groups care to admit.

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/08/14/american_atheists_1_in_20_americans_say_they_are_atheists_.html

Westernization isn't a term I would agree with and Ive explained why at least ten times by now. But industrialization, yes.

lol if you think religious extremism is less present in the west. our flavor is just more socially acceptable to us.

  On 11/26/2012 at 1:24 PM, yikes said:

my solution is far outside the box.

i believe there is an ingrained hatred on both sides that encapsulates the stupidity of humanity and it's penchant for violence/war and the idiotic ingrained belief that my invisible god is better than the other guy's.

 

With the profuse amount of wealth in many of the oil rich arab/muslim countries I would like to see BILLIONS poured into what's left of Palestine and have the infrastructure and economy rebulit to the point that everyone in the territory is employed/educated housed and properly fed and or on the dole,much like what goes on in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

I see it being turned into a huge version of downtown DUBAI with endless shopping malls.apartment complexes,skyscrapers,entertainment centers,resorts,nightclubs,car dealerships etc AND light manufacturing complexes,vocational /educational systems that are dependent upon israeli goods/money or labor -to force the 2 parties to co-exisit in a money making program of an industrial nature.

I realize this is a utopian dream and in reality the United States will continue to prop up Israel with billions in arms and funds and Iran/egypt will continue to trickle in just enough weaponry and money to keep HAMAS armed and politically viable.

I think this presupposes a degree of unity and cooperation between Arab nations which simply doesn't exist. I'm no expert, but from living with a Palestinian guy for a while and talking to other people from the Middle East, it's not like there's some bottomless wellspring of sympathy for the Palestinian situation. Yeah, religious extremists like to push the "global Muslim nation" angle and use Palestine to generate sympathy for their cause, but my impression is a lot of Arabs from other states look quite disdainfully at Palestinians - especially people who actually have the capital and economic power to invest in the way you're talking about.

Because all capitalists really care about is growing capital and maintaining power - whether they're Arab or white or anything else. It's never truly benevolent.

  On 11/26/2012 at 4:56 PM, Hoodie said:

lol if you think religious extremism is less present in the west. our flavor is just more socially acceptable to us.

Well in Palestine being gay is an 'impossibility'... you can get killed. So while Christians in the US have detestable attributes, I do think its less extreme per note by the lack of religious freedom and individual rights in middle eastern countries compared to the US. Our governance is more diverse and population is more diverse. Notice how urban cities (outside of the deep south) are more progressive and secular. integration of many different cultures and beliefs living together with advancements in individual power due to technology leads to that five fold increase of atheism.

Five percent of people in the US identify as 'convinced atheist.' A five-fold increase on a tiny number is, as the saying goes, still a tiny number. We are still a highly religious country, and while being gay in Palestine is considered an 'impossibility,' it is an impossibility for many in Alabama, too (where you may also be killed), and it's not just religion creating that condition. Rednecks are indoctrinated by culture, not religion alone. Likewise, bigots in the middle east are very likely bigots first, and religious second. I understand your distaste for religion, but it is not really an option to take someone's religious culture away from them; it is THEIRS, and they have to give it up willingly. Not to mention, it would be wise of us to understand the diversity in Islam instead of calling for the removal of the faith altogether, which, again, is not feasible. Religious extremism is bad, but is in the extremes - the small parts of the bell curve. Most religious people are not extreme, hence the title extremist. Sorry for being so redundant here but religion is not the bottom of the problem, religious people make peace as well as war. Religion is used to facilitate war, but the war is created by angry humans, and they would do it even if Islam didn't back them up.

And, as Hoodie said, we have our own religious problems. We are defending Israel in part BECAUSE of bizarre, literalist fundamentalist religious ideas. Our country has no claim to a secular, moral high ground. We are every bit as religious as the middle east. And look at the diversity in our religions, even among just Christians: Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Evangelical, Presbyterian, etc -- each faction split into subfactions, with specific beliefs about things like gay rights, war, how to be good person, etc etc. The dogma is not static, and it can't be static in Islam either. So before making blanket statements about how Shari'ah law says X or Y thing, remember that religion is not so cut and dry, and to paint it that way is inaccurate.

I dunno. Leave religion alone *cries*

(or don't, whatever. again: the problem just won't be solved by claiming the root of the violence is religion. the root of the violence is angry humans.)

I'm not saying you can't be religious but that diversity of beliefs in a society leads us to a path of global unity. Something which Middle Eastern countries and populations haven't progressed with as far (per note 84% Egyptians thinking one should be put to death for leaving Islamic faith).

People living in oppressed areas of the South (because of their cultural differences have the option to move to different states, tho obviously not easy due to individual economic conditions. which is why wealth inequality is also a factor).

You think America (and the Western world) is on a path to global unity? I guess I stop agreeing with you right there.

You disagree that diversity of cultural/backgrounds/race is not a path to global unity? Singularity of beliefs and race is superior?

Heil Hitler?

I'll add that yes, of course a culture rich in diversity promotes acceptance, but clearly people are reluctant to embrace diversity. You can take a look at our own tangled up history to see how our own citizens have strongly resisted the idea of change, as we still do. People in the south "can move," sure, but not easily. To suggest that that is a solution for bigotry is ludicrous.

And please don't call me a nazi. Classy.

Clearly how? As I said places outside of the South, like New York, Seattle, California lead to more progressive policy, which snowballs and creates more diversity. Places that don't will see more wealth inequality, therefore less power/infrastructure. The statistical evidence is pretty clear here.

I guess I should add this, too, to be clear:

"You disagree that diversity of cultural/backgrounds/race is not a path to global unity?"

Let me re-word this question so it's more readable. Do you agree that diversity of culture/backgrounds/race is a path to global unity?

No. It is ON the path to 'global unity,' ie, you couldn't get everyone united without diversity (duh), but it is not the only factor in achieving something as grandiose as 'global unity' and it's strange to suggest that simply by promoting multi-culturalism, we will rid the world of angry humans getting in each other's way. They may become more tolerant of one anothers culture, but tolerating something and embracing it are different. Here in America, we tolerate other cultures, not embrace them, if you have noticed.

In response to your last post: If you are asking 'clearly how?' in reference to 'clearly people are reluctant to change,' then here's my answer: Racism and sexism alone took us centuries to make any headway with. I'm not even sure what it is you're suggesting any more, so I'll stop here, lol

PS: polls are terrible statistical evidence, and you can throw poll data around all you want; a huge amount of it is hogwash, by default. Polls necessarily omit fine details, and the topic we're discussing NEEDS fine details if we're going to get a realistic picture of people's views in the middle east regarding israel, islam, etc. in other words, the polling stats are interesting as indicators of large, vague trends, but that's about it.

I'm not even talking about anything but present day societies. Our history of course is filled with racism. Our society is definitely in a process and things take time. We have a long ways to go.

Remember that time when Arabs tolerated all religious backgrounds and invented the zero and stuff? That was pretty cool.

  On 11/26/2012 at 5:16 PM, luke viia said:

Five percent of people in the US identify as 'convinced atheist.' A five-fold increase on a tiny number is, as the saying goes, still a tiny number. We are still a highly religious country, and while being gay in Palestine is considered an 'impossibility,' it is an impossibility for many in Alabama, too (where you may also be killed), and it's not just religion creating that condition. Rednecks are indoctrinated by culture, not religion alone. Likewise, bigots in the middle east are very likely bigots first, and religious second. I understand your distaste for religion, but it is not really an option to take someone's religious culture away from them; it is THEIRS, and they have to give it up willingly. Not to mention, it would be wise of us to understand the diversity in Islam instead of calling for the removal of the faith altogether, which, again, is not feasible. Religious extremism is bad, but is in the extremes - the small parts of the bell curve. Most religious people are not extreme, hence the title extremist. Sorry for being so redundant here but religion is not the bottom of the problem, religious people make peace as well as war. Religion is used to facilitate war, but the war is created by angry humans, and they would do it even if Islam didn't back them up.

 

And, as Hoodie said, we have our own religious problems. We are defending Israel in part BECAUSE of bizarre, literalist fundamentalist religious ideas. Our country has no claim to a secular, moral high ground. We are every bit as religious as the middle east. And look at the diversity in our religions, even among just Christians: Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Evangelical, Presbyterian, etc -- each faction split into subfactions, with specific beliefs about things like gay rights, war, how to be good person, etc etc. The dogma is not static, and it can't be static in Islam either. So before making blanket statements about how Shari'ah law says X or Y thing, remember that religion is not so cut and dry, and to paint it that way is inaccurate.

 

I dunno. Leave religion alone *cries*

 

(or don't, whatever. again: the problem just won't be solved by claiming the root of the violence is religion. the root of the violence is angry humans.)

im not downplaying the power of religious extremism in the US.

As for atheism being a small number...just wait.

Yeah for sure, the number will keep growing, especially since so many young people identify with the title of atheist. My point is just that America is largely a religious nation, not a secular one. something like almost 80% of US adults identify as Christian. Less than half a percent identify as muslim. Under two percent are jewish. (polling statistics, oi)

We're diverse, but not that diverse...

Though we are apparently pretty accepting! Reading the second page (Report 2) on the pew forums is giving me some hope for our american religious populace. Some of the statistics are pretty funny btw, such as 21% of atheists believe in god, lol

  Quote

A major survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life finds that most Americans have a non-dogmatic approach to faith. A strong majority of those who are affiliated with a religion, including majorities of nearly every religious tradition, do not believe their religion is the only way to salvation. And almost the same number believes that there is more than one true way to interpret the teachings of their religion. This openness to a range of religious viewpoints is in line with the great diversity of religious affiliation, belief and practice that exists in the United States, as documented in a survey of more than 35,000 Americans that comprehensively examines the country’s religious landscape.

anyway, back to Israel.

just FYI 5% (1 in 20) of 300 million is 15 million.

that's a lot of atheists/agnostics

the pew forum surveyed 35000 people and got 1.6% atheist response... that's 560 atheists. I dunno man, I always have trouble buying inferential statistics (but as you can see, I have no problem quoting them when they suit my fancy ). Also, that was in 2007, so the numbers have changed.

They also got 78.4% christians, that's 27440 christians. 560/27440 = .0204-something. SO there's 0.02 atheists for every christian in the US, i guess?

was just referring to the slatest article above, i don't know how valid it is

  On 11/26/2012 at 8:17 PM, theSun said:

just FYI 5% (1 in 20) of 300 million is 15 million.

 

that's a lot of atheists/agnostics

Also I think a recent poll said 1/5 of Americans don't claim ANY religion whatsoever. That includes atheists, agnostics, and those who are spiritual, irreligious, etc. Perhaps a lot of people raised protestant or catholic are admitting they don't believe, in other words the pariah factor of being a non-believer or non-Christian in America is declining overall. I know for a fact that many who say they are Christian neither go to church or actually believe in that dogma, it's all for appearances. Evangelicals are just so vocal and influential and, well, accomplished bullies. I'm definitely in that 20% mentioned myself.

As for debate over religious extremism in the Middle East versus America (or the West in genera) imo the biggest factor is how much influence and support a free and secular government has. Turkey is statistically and overwhelmingly Muslim, but ask a typical Turkish citizen, especially a younger person or an expat, and many will likely not be practicing Muslims. Most immigrants from the most volatile Middle Eastern countries I've met are very secular, not just in mannerisms and actions, but in their religious beliefs as well. Certainly they are drawn to America and similar countries for that reason. Corruption, greed, and hatred are drive the violence in places like Palestine or Pakistan just as much as the influence of Fundamental Islam. More secular ideologies can be just as dangerous: with Imperial Japan it was nationalism, with DPRK it's a deeply rooted tradition of ancestral worship that was exploited.

In other words, I see what compson's saying but I think I'm more with luke viia on this one.

  On 11/26/2012 at 1:24 PM, yikes said:

my solution is far outside the box.

i believe there is an ingrained hatred on both sides that encapsulates the stupidity of humanity and it's penchant for violence/war and the idiotic ingrained belief that my invisible god is better than the other guy's.

 

With the profuse amount of wealth in many of the oil rich arab/muslim countries I would like to see BILLIONS poured into what's left of Palestine and have the infrastructure and economy rebulit to the point that everyone in the territory is employed/educated housed and properly fed and or on the dole,much like what goes on in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

I see it being turned into a huge version of downtown DUBAI with endless shopping malls.apartment complexes,skyscrapers,entertainment centers,resorts,nightclubs,car dealerships etc AND light manufacturing complexes,vocational /educational systems that are dependent upon israeli goods/money or labor -to force the 2 parties to co-exisit in a money making program of an industrial nature.

I realize this is a utopian dream and in reality the United States will continue to prop up Israel with billions in arms and funds and Iran/egypt will continue to trickle in just enough weaponry and money to keep HAMAS armed and politically viable.

  On 11/26/2012 at 1:37 PM, RadarJammer said:

^ best post

Hah, agreed. there's some truth to that actually, the bolded part anyway. The Palestinians have been kicked around by other Arab countries in the past as well. Actually, more specifically, neglected by Eygpt and Jordan before Israel occupied Gaza and West Bank. Just another factor that's complicated this fucking mess.

it really is quite sad that we (the US) are funneling this incredible amount of resources into Israel and are being opposed rather effectively by a much weaker force.

that says nothing of the atrocities associated with generations of brutal conflict, but the fact that Israel/the US aren't really winning is pretty damning.

god is not the problem. groupthink is the problem. the growth of atheism means nothing. other bigoted, irrational groups will replace the hole that mainstream religion will leave with increasing secularism.

somewhat related...

Israel Official in 'Obama' Black Face

http://news.yahoo.co...topstories.html