A Civilized Discussion on Gender Issues

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:47 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

Because men have always been forcefully placed into the role of provider

 

Women are born with innate value because of their uteri.

Men have to prove their value through their accomplishments.

 

Hence areas where personal dedication and working towards accomplishments is present, men dominate

 

Just to follow up again:

(a) Why not make the same claim you make about women here: That men chose to enter this role? Who forced them exactly? Is this a question for the history of anthropology? I doubt it can be shown to be definitively true or false, so you're just speculating here.

(b) If women are inherently valuable because they have uteri, why are men not inherently valuable because they have penii?

What're you talking about? Men and women have equal rights!

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:22 AM, chenGOD said:

I'm just curious, and this is not meant as a troll, and if the question is too offensive, please feel free to ignore it, but do you have some personal experience where you have been assaulted by a woman? Or is this as a result of being passed over for a job that a woman ended up getting?

My views are the result of red pill untethering from feminist dogma and absolute disgust at the hypocrisy of feminism

They want equality when it helps them, not when it hurts

They want to raise proportions of women on management boards in the corporate sector and other high ranking jobs.

But they don't want to raise the proportion of female coal miners and sewage workers.

They want to be treated as if they are just as competent as men

Yet they don't want to bear the responsibilities that come with that such as the potential to be forced into a parental position

I could go on and on but nobody here will read it anyway so I won't bother.

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:04 AM, Zeffolia said:

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:02 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:00 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 12:59 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 12:54 AM, Alcofribas said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 12:43 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 12:35 AM, Alcofribas said:

first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

just to be clear, you claim that "in just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are" and then provide a link to an article which states:

 

"The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women."

 

 

I think Zeff is a troll and not worthy of taking seriously.

 

I'm the troll? You're the one who spammed and derailed my last thread with reaction GIFs for no apparent reason

 

Fuck off troll, you're not welcome in this discussion.

 

 

 

You can't even read the shitty articles you post to make sure they support your goofy claims.

 

Yes I did read them.

 

And they all do support my claim. Any discrepancies are out of semantics alone in my later restatement of them i.e. "Most places" etc.

 

So far I've seen lots of anecdotal garbage and attacks on my person. Not one successful refute of any of my points.

 

troll detected yet again. you explicitly stated that "in just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are." when i pointed out that the article you cited to "support your claim" states the exact opposite you then claimed that it still supports your argument and that any discrepancy is "out of semantics alone." if this isn't trolling i genuinely have no idea wtf you're doing here.

besides this, the greater point i see in the article you've cited is that men rape women and other men. not sure why you think this lends good support to your thesis about how men are disenfranchised by women.

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:54 AM, Zeffolia said:

And my point about sexual harassment in the workplace alienating men from their jobs was because often even a false accusation can get them fired

 

Women wield immense unearned power. They can falsely accuse a man of raping or sexually harassing them and his life will be ruined

 

Even false accusations hold consequences for men.

 

I am not saying true accusations aren't warranted but the fact that even false ones come with severe consequences proves that this power women hold in the ability to accuse is unjust.

 

And all of these other sarcastic offshoots are really unnecessary

 

I never claimed it's okay to harass women or tell them to get into your car and whatnot.

Do men get fired from (supposedly) false accusations of sexual harrassment more often they are acquitted from (supposedly) false accusations of rape? There's some research for you to do.

In principle, false accusations hold equally immense consequences for women as for men. But the real question is whether people unjustly suffer those consequences in practice -- and I am confident the statistics will bear out that the mean have the upper hand, statistically speaking.

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:57 AM, encey said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:47 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

Because men have always been forcefully placed into the role of provider

 

Women are born with innate value because of their uteri.

Men have to prove their value through their accomplishments.

 

Hence areas where personal dedication and working towards accomplishments is present, men dominate

 

 

Just to follow up again:

 

(a) Why not make the same claim you make about women here: That men chose to enter this role? Who forced them exactly? Is this a question for the history of anthropology? I doubt it can be shown to be definitively true or false, so you're just speculating here.

 

(b) If women are inherently valuable because they have uteri, why are men not inherently valuable because they have penii?

 

I was talking about historically. Men used to be forcefully placed into that role or else they and their families would die. Same with women as the caregiver.

In the modern day there is more of a choice and that's why we see a shifting away from male dominated environments in the workplace.

ahhh...nothing

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:01 AM, xox said:

Alop;[[;'

\

source?

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:58 AM, Zeffolia said:

They want equality when it helps them, not when it hurts

 

They want to raise proportions of women on management boards in the corporate sector and other high ranking jobs.

But they don't want to raise the proportion of female coal miners and sewage workers.

 

Maybe particular feminists are too cowardly to take on risky jobs, but (a) not all of them are -- think of the rising numbers of women in the army (women who still get raped and abused by male soldiers way too much, btw) -- and (b) the point is a point in principle: They want the equal right to compete and flourish in any job they choose, just like men can, whatever the level of risk or pay. Which particular jobs they end up applying for is beside the point (at least in principle).

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:00 AM, encey said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:54 AM, Zeffolia said:

And my point about sexual harassment in the workplace alienating men from their jobs was because often even a false accusation can get them fired

 

Women wield immense unearned power. They can falsely accuse a man of raping or sexually harassing them and his life will be ruined

 

Even false accusations hold consequences for men.

 

I am not saying true accusations aren't warranted but the fact that even false ones come with severe consequences proves that this power women hold in the ability to accuse is unjust.

 

And all of these other sarcastic offshoots are really unnecessary

 

I never claimed it's okay to harass women or tell them to get into your car and whatnot.

 

Do men get fired from (supposedly) false accusations of sexual harrassment more often they are acquitted from (supposedly) false accusations of rape? There's some research for you to do.

 

In principle, false accusations hold equally immense consequences for women as for men. But the real question is whether people unjustly suffer those consequences in practice -- and I am confident the statistics will bear out that the mean have the upper hand, statistically speaking.

 

A fair point, maybe they do even out

But a woman's life is not ruined from being raped in most cases. She does not lose her job or her husband or all the respect people had for her. She has lots of places to go for support

The emotional issues can be large but not quite at the scale as a false rape or sexual harassment accusation against a man.

A man has nowhere to go if he is falsely accused. He can countersue for libel or whatnot but that costs money he may not have after losing his house in a divorce, and losing his job.

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:01 AM, Alcofribas said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:01 AM, xox said:

Alop;[[;'

\

source?

 

lol till sun is down

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:03 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:00 AM, encey said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:54 AM, Zeffolia said:

And my point about sexual harassment in the workplace alienating men from their jobs was because often even a false accusation can get them fired

 

Women wield immense unearned power. They can falsely accuse a man of raping or sexually harassing them and his life will be ruined

 

Even false accusations hold consequences for men.

 

I am not saying true accusations aren't warranted but the fact that even false ones come with severe consequences proves that this power women hold in the ability to accuse is unjust.

 

And all of these other sarcastic offshoots are really unnecessary

 

I never claimed it's okay to harass women or tell them to get into your car and whatnot.

 

Do men get fired from (supposedly) false accusations of sexual harrassment more often they are acquitted from (supposedly) false accusations of rape? There's some research for you to do.

 

In principle, false accusations hold equally immense consequences for women as for men. But the real question is whether people unjustly suffer those consequences in practice -- and I am confident the statistics will bear out that the mean have the upper hand, statistically speaking.

 

 

A fair point, maybe they do even out

 

But a woman's life is not ruined from being raped in most cases. She does not lose her job or her husband or all the respect people had for her. She has lots of places to go for support

 

The emotional issues can be large but not quite at the scale as a false rape or sexual harassment accusation against a man.

 

A man has nowhere to go if he is falsely accused. He can countersue for libel or whatnot but that costs money he may not have after losing his house in a divorce, and losing his job.

 

lol nice troll.

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:03 AM, encey said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:58 AM, Zeffolia said:

They want equality when it helps them, not when it hurts

 

They want to raise proportions of women on management boards in the corporate sector and other high ranking jobs.

But they don't want to raise the proportion of female coal miners and sewage workers.

 

 

Maybe particular feminists are too cowardly to take on risky jobs, but (a) not all of them are -- think of the rising numbers of women in the army (women who still get raped and abused by male soldiers way too much, btw) -- and (b) the point is a point in principle: They want the equal right to compete and flourish in any job they choose, just like men can, whatever the level of risk or pay. Which particular jobs they end up applying for is beside the point (at least in principle).

 

The point is they claim they want gender equality for both genders including men, quite often

But their actions don't attest to that claim

Many prominent feminists even oppose new developments like male birth control pills, no doubt because it will result in women not being able to force men into provider positions through a pregnancy

A small boy of 13 years old can be raped by a woman and get her pregnant, and he can still be forced to pay child support.

That alone speaks to the injustice in the legal system concerning family law and rape laws.

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:00 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:57 AM, encey said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:47 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

Because men have always been forcefully placed into the role of provider

 

Women are born with innate value because of their uteri.

Men have to prove their value through their accomplishments.

 

Hence areas where personal dedication and working towards accomplishments is present, men dominate

 

 

Just to follow up again:

 

(a) Why not make the same claim you make about women here: That men chose to enter this role? Who forced them exactly? Is this a question for the history of anthropology? I doubt it can be shown to be definitively true or false, so you're just speculating here.

 

(b) If women are inherently valuable because they have uteri, why are men not inherently valuable because they have penii?

 

I was talking about historically. Men used to be forcefully placed into that role or else they and their families would die. Same with women as the caregiver.

 

In the modern day there is more of a choice and that's why we see a shifting away from male dominated environments in the workplace.

 

I get the point you're trying to make there, but if they were 'forced' by the natural fact that they had bigger muscles, or could run faster or throw a spear harder, or whatever, there is nothing morally relevant in that 'force,' and so there is no injustice. You don't have the same kind of reason to complain about that force as you do for complaining that women are 'forced' (by the intentional actions of men) from making the same salary as men, or having the same positions in the same numbers, or whatever the issue is. The kind of force there is morally relevant because it has to do with equality of social opportunity, not a matter of mere natural fact and circumstance, which as such as morally neutral.

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:05 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:03 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:00 AM, encey said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:54 AM, Zeffolia said:

And my point about sexual harassment in the workplace alienating men from their jobs was because often even a false accusation can get them fired

 

Women wield immense unearned power. They can falsely accuse a man of raping or sexually harassing them and his life will be ruined

 

Even false accusations hold consequences for men.

 

I am not saying true accusations aren't warranted but the fact that even false ones come with severe consequences proves that this power women hold in the ability to accuse is unjust.

 

And all of these other sarcastic offshoots are really unnecessary

 

I never claimed it's okay to harass women or tell them to get into your car and whatnot.

 

Do men get fired from (supposedly) false accusations of sexual harrassment more often they are acquitted from (supposedly) false accusations of rape? There's some research for you to do.

 

In principle, false accusations hold equally immense consequences for women as for men. But the real question is whether people unjustly suffer those consequences in practice -- and I am confident the statistics will bear out that the mean have the upper hand, statistically speaking.

 

 

A fair point, maybe they do even out

 

But a woman's life is not ruined from being raped in most cases. She does not lose her job or her husband or all the respect people had for her. She has lots of places to go for support

 

The emotional issues can be large but not quite at the scale as a false rape or sexual harassment accusation against a man.

 

A man has nowhere to go if he is falsely accused. He can countersue for libel or whatnot but that costs money he may not have after losing his house in a divorce, and losing his job.

 

 

lol nice troll.

 

How is that a nice troll

The emotional issues caused by losing your house, family, and job, are no doubt worse than being raped

That the male suicide rate after divorce raising significantly above the normal male suicide and female suicide rate speaks to that

alright so is it clear enough yet that we write Zeff off as a troll?

I mean seriously: the potential for sexual harassment claims has disenfranchised men in the workplace?

Troll or 'Hole

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:06 AM, encey said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:00 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:57 AM, encey said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 1:47 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

Because men have always been forcefully placed into the role of provider

 

Women are born with innate value because of their uteri.

Men have to prove their value through their accomplishments.

 

Hence areas where personal dedication and working towards accomplishments is present, men dominate

 

 

Just to follow up again:

 

(a) Why not make the same claim you make about women here: That men chose to enter this role? Who forced them exactly? Is this a question for the history of anthropology? I doubt it can be shown to be definitively true or false, so you're just speculating here.

 

(b) If women are inherently valuable because they have uteri, why are men not inherently valuable because they have penii?

 

I was talking about historically. Men used to be forcefully placed into that role or else they and their families would die. Same with women as the caregiver.

 

In the modern day there is more of a choice and that's why we see a shifting away from male dominated environments in the workplace.

 

 

I get the point you're trying to make there, but if they were 'forced' by the natural fact that they had bigger muscles, or could run faster or throw a spear harder, or whatever, there is nothing morally relevant in that 'force,' and so there is no injustice. You don't have the same kind of reason to complain about that force as you do for complaining that women are 'forced' (by the intentional actions of men) from making the same salary as men, or having the same positions in the same numbers, or whatever the issue is. The kind of force there is morally relevant because it has to do with equality of social opportunity, not a matter of mere natural fact and circumstance, which as such as morally neutral.

 

I'm not even quite sure what you're saying here so I don't know if my following remark will address it at all, but I will say it anyway:

I'm not trying to say it was an injustice historically

Just that the original reason for male dominance in the workplace was that the traditional male role involved providing

And since that has changed recently, this is why the work environment has changed

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:03 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

But a woman's life is not ruined from being raped in most cases. She does not lose her job or her husband or all the respect people had for her. She has lots of places to go for support

 

The emotional issues can be large but not quite at the scale as a false rape or sexual harassment accusation against a man.

 

A man has nowhere to go if he is falsely accused. He can countersue for libel or whatnot but that costs money he may not have after losing his house in a divorce, and losing his job.

 

Let me ask you: do you know any woman who has been raped? Have you ever read their accounts of how it affected their lives? It is very hard for me to imagine that you have and yet could maintain that point above. That sounds incredibly naive.

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:05 AM, Zeffolia said:

The point is they claim they want gender equality for both genders including men, quite often

 

But their actions don't attest to that claim

 

Many prominent feminists even oppose new developments like male birth control pills, no doubt because it will result in women not being able to force men into provider positions through a pregnancy

 

 

A small boy of 13 years old can be raped by a woman and get her pregnant, and he can still be forced to pay child support.

 

That alone speaks to the injustice in the legal system concerning family law and rape laws.

 

If their actions don't attest to the claim, that is something you can rightly call them out on. But that doesn't mean that the claim itself is morally wrong or unjust.

Something I don't know: Does the law not require a woman to pay child support to a man if she rapes him and is impregnated and he gets custody? (A wacky scenario, to be sure!)

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:08 AM, LimpyLoo said:

alright so is it clear enough yet that we write Zeff off as a troll?

 

 

I mean seriously: the potential for sexual harassment claims has disenfranchised men in the workplace?

 

 

Troll or 'Hole

Shut the fuck up troll I'm trying to have a civil discussion here with Encey the fine gentleman

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:09 AM, Zeffolia said:

I'm not trying to say it was an injustice historically

 

Just that the original reason for male dominance in the workplace was that the traditional male role involved providing

 

And since that has changed recently, this is why the work environment has changed

 

I'm happy to agree with all of that. But you seemed to use the historical origin of the different roles as a reason for complaining that things are harder for men, or that women need to adjust to the conditions for men, which I didn't think followed, for the reason I gave about your historical fact being morally neutral and thus irrelevant to questions of injustice.

The mere fact that the work environment has changed leaves it still open whether that change is good or bad, and claiming that it's not like it was for the cavemen is illegitimate.

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:09 AM, encey said:

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:03 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

But a woman's life is not ruined from being raped in most cases. She does not lose her job or her husband or all the respect people had for her. She has lots of places to go for support

 

The emotional issues can be large but not quite at the scale as a false rape or sexual harassment accusation against a man.

 

A man has nowhere to go if he is falsely accused. He can countersue for libel or whatnot but that costs money he may not have after losing his house in a divorce, and losing his job.

 

 

Let me ask you: do you know any woman who has been raped? Have you ever read their accounts of how it affected their lives? It is very hard for me to imagine that you have and yet could maintain that point above. That sounds incredibly naive.

 

 

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:05 AM, Zeffolia said:

The point is they claim they want gender equality for both genders including men, quite often

 

But their actions don't attest to that claim

 

Many prominent feminists even oppose new developments like male birth control pills, no doubt because it will result in women not being able to force men into provider positions through a pregnancy

 

 

A small boy of 13 years old can be raped by a woman and get her pregnant, and he can still be forced to pay child support.

 

That alone speaks to the injustice in the legal system concerning family law and rape laws.

 

 

If their actions don't attest to the claim, that is something you can rightly call them out on. But that doesn't mean that the claim itself is morally wrong or unjust.

 

Something I don't know: Does the law not require a woman to pay child support to a man if she rapes him and is impregnated and he gets custody? (A wacky scenario, to be sure!)

 

I do not know any women who have been raped

Maybe you are right.

As for the second point, I have no clue. I can't imagine a rapist ever getting custody over a mother.

Child support payments from women, however, tend to not be enforced. They won't be jailed if they don't pay them like men will in most cases. And their payments tend to be more lenient if present at all.

Yeah, cause never being able to trust a man again after rape is something to be sloughed off.

Rape victims have significantly higher levels of PTSD and suicide rates than non-victims:

http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

ps: I have to go (cook my own dinner btw) but will likely come back and post more tonight when I'm fucking drunk.

<3

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:12 AM, Zeffolia said:

I do not know any women who have been raped

 

Maybe you are right.

 

As for the second point, I have no clue. I can't imagine a rapist ever getting custody over a mother.

 

Child support payments from women, however, tend to not be enforced. They won't be jailed if they don't pay them like men will in most cases. And their payments tend to be more lenient if present at all.

 

One last point: Then I would say you should really think twice about making your claim about which is worse. Imagine it turns out it is much worse for rape victims than for falsely accused perpetrators. You would be flippantly dismissing something that has caused a woman years and years of psychological trauma, the inability to feel safe even in her own home or hometown, to form or keep trusting relationships with close friends and family, to move on to forming new romantic relationships, to potentially taking the incident out on herself by eating/drinking/cutting/fucking too much and all the health consequences that come with that -- and I doubt you would want to do that and insult them so deeply.

  On 4/17/2013 at 2:12 AM, encey said:

ps: I have to go (cook my own dinner btw) but will likely come back and post more tonight when I'm fucking drunk.

 

Goddamn it encey, dont you dare deprive your woman of her responsibility in preparing your dinner! She's putting all kinds of blue pills in there!