Woolwich attack

  On 5/23/2013 at 12:31 PM, Obel said:

 

  On 5/23/2013 at 12:12 PM, jasondonervan said:

It was surreal, just loads of people stood around on the sidelines doing nothing - neither running away or trying to intervene (not that they should when people are brandishing weapons).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genovese_syndrome

 

 

It's just an easy story. The murder is one thing, it goes without saying that killing someone is despicable. But murdering someone like that in broad daylight in the middle of the street, with the public around is not the act of someone with a message, it's the act of someone with mental issues.

This fucking guy goes up to a bus full of people and tells them to take pictures and film him, then says (in an English accent no less) that this kind of thing happens every day where he's from. Where's that? Hackney? I mean I know it's bad there, but this is ridiculous.

 

So yeah, that's one thing. But the coverage of this has been terrible, from all angles. There's so much misinformation going around, nobody I've spoken to about it and nothing I've read has told me the same story. Here's what I've heard:

 

• The guys were Muslim extremists
• The guys were English born, but have Nigerian descent.
• They attacked a man in the street with machetes
• They beheaded a man in the street
• They were shot and killed by the police
• They're currently in hospital being looked after before questioning
• They killed a man because he was a solider.
• They killed a man because he was wearing a Help for Heroes charity T-shirt
• They killed a man who happened to be an army cadet and wearing a Help for Heroes t-shirt (struggling to see why everyone is bringing up the t-shirt except to inject more emotion)
• They shouted things like "Allah Ackbar!"
• Witnesses nearby never heard any shouts of "Allah Ackbar!"

 

So basically there's a whole bunch of fucking contradictory nonsense going around.

 

You have the PM postponing meetings to make public statements about a man killed in the street because this is apparently terrorism? Not to sound insensitive but people are killed all the time, why isn't he commenting on every single one? What is so special about this one, because they made some vaguely political statement to a guy with a camera phone? So this is terrorism now.

 

The ridiculous thing about it is that by calling them terrorists and calling this terrorism, you have just let them win. Give them all the attention they want. Let a pair of sick fucking murders take center stage, that's a great idea! That way other lunatics around the world (as this has been reported on CNN now this is an international event) can see what these glorious freedom fighters are doing and feel inspired.

 

No, it's a murder by a couple of mentally ill people. And they're mentally ill not because of their beliefs or whatever, it's because they killed someone in the street in front of everyone. That's literally the whole story. Notify the immediate community, have attention be given to people who were there when it happened, no doubt some people will be traumatised. Isolate the story to the local community and have it be a footnote in the wider news, because by acting like this is some major issue you're not helping anything, you're just further perpetuating the culture of fear mongering.

 

[/soapbox]

 

i don't agree at all. if they are mentally ill, they were so before killing and after... their beliefs, misguided through mental illness or not, lead them to brutally kill an innocent man.

how do you know that though? it's like saying the kids who shot up the school in columbine did it because of their obsession with Hitler and Doom 2.

I'm not disputing that. But acting like it's just because of their beliefs is a massive generalisation. I mean, it's not even clear what their beliefs are. The guy said "apologies to the women that saw this, but this happens all the time where I'm from". If he's of Nigerian descent then couldn't that imply the general apathy that the government has towards places like Africa?

The whole Muslim thing as far as I can tell has been brought up by the media.

I just don't think it benefits anybody by reporting this as "Muslims are murderers, again. Be afraid."

Edit: @keltoi

completely agree about the Patriot act and erosion of civil liberties. I'm just glad I haven't seen much talk of racial profiling (well, nobody would state it outright anyway). Seems we've come a long way from WW2 though, with the Japanese internment.

I'm actually blown away the govt. was too inept to see the threat posed by the Tsarnev bros. Tbh, if I was in the FBI/CIA I probably *would* be covertly watching most of the people traveling from Dagestan/Chechnya to the US. It would certainly be on my top 5 list of places to be alert about.

I can add something from my personal experience, btw. My company (based in China) recently wired money to the US personal bank account of an Indonesian guy, and two weeks later I got a call from my bank. "The 'authorities' are asking why you made this transfer, what was the purpose of the transfer, does your company have any subsidiaries, etc". So my guess is they run a filter on any money transfers coming into personal accounts in the US...that are flagged for...what? Because he was Indonesian? I'm guessing that's it. Either drugs or terrorism, and I'm guessing terrorism because of the Indo angle. Pretty cool stuff (or chilling, if you're disposed towards fear of big brother).

they showed this on tv over there? is that like your Fox News?

shit sounds terrible and I've seen no video.

This happened just down the road from where I live. Interesting that when a white guy gets stabbed in the street by muslims, it's an existential threat to "our way of life," the PM drops everything and chairs a meeting of "COBRA", the news coverage is relentless and hyperbolic; but when one black teenager stabs another (as happened on a bus in the same area a few months back) it doesn't even make the national news.

The media's response has been predictably awful through-and-through, last night I had something like 100 fascists wearing balaclavas marching and rioting 20 minutes down the road from my house, some nazi was arrested for bursting into a mosque with a knife and an "incendiary device," and it seems that life for some of the people I love most is about to become a lot more difficult.

This morning a black colleague of mine (not a muslim) told me he was seriously considering claiming his Jamaican passport and leaving this country for good and honestly, I wouldn't blame him.

the coverage would be the same if the victim was a black british soldier, get real.

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:05 PM, Obel said:

I'm not disputing that. But acting like it's just because of their beliefs is a massive generalisation. I mean, it's not even clear what their beliefs are. The guy said "apologies to the women that saw this, but this happens all the time where I'm from". If he's of Nigerian descent then couldn't that imply the general apathy that the government has towards places like Africa?

 

The whole Muslim thing as far as I can tell has been brought up by the media.

 

I just don't think it benefits anybody by reporting this as "Muslims are murderers, again. Be afraid."

 

Edit: @keltoi

it wasn't brought up by the media, i think you must have only watched an edited version of the video?

the guy was filmed by passer-by on his phone saying...

  Quote

We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth... We must fight them. I apologise that women had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government. They don't care about you.

i saw it last night myself, the media have not created anything.

in fact as i see it, the media have cut the first part out so as not to fuel the anti-muslim fire.

No eugene, YOU get real if you don't think the racial aspect of this is a significant element in how the media (and the fash) have reacted to this story.

there was nothing racial about the event, it was framed as a terrorism right from the beginning, an attack on the nation..both black and white soldiers as victims would symbolize the same thing exactly.

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:23 PM, keltoi said:

 

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:05 PM, Obel said:

I'm not disputing that. But acting like it's just because of their beliefs is a massive generalisation. I mean, it's not even clear what their beliefs are. The guy said "apologies to the women that saw this, but this happens all the time where I'm from". If he's of Nigerian descent then couldn't that imply the general apathy that the government has towards places like Africa?

 

The whole Muslim thing as far as I can tell has been brought up by the media.

 

I just don't think it benefits anybody by reporting this as "Muslims are murderers, again. Be afraid."

 

Edit: @keltoi

 

it wasn't brought up by the media, i think you must have only watched an edited version of the video?

 

the guy was filmed by passer-by on his phone saying...

 

  Quote

We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth... We must fight them. I apologise that women had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government. They don't care about you.

 

i saw it last night myself, the media have not created anything.

 

in fact as i see it, the media have cut the first part out so as not to fuel the anti-muslim fire.

 

Ah, I must have saw an edited bit then. My bad.

My point remains about the anti-Muslim sentiment though. I don't think it helps anything.

You see these guys?

Pictured last night, in Woolwich? They're fascists. They don't typically riot when black men are murdered. Every news story has reported and often emphasised the racial dimension of this attack, especially the early reports before the focus shifted from "black men" to "muslims" - both media bogeymen.

edit: @eugene

yeah, I think the shocking nature of the events speak more loudly than skin color.

Impossible to read people's hearts and minds, but only speaking personally, I'd be just as rattled if it was Timothy McVeigh holding a bloody butcher knife and cleaver, speaking rather calmly about why he just hacked some guy's head off...

and that should be the obvious point, that regardless of how you label it it's not indicative of a danger that the religion poses to an average UK citizen's way of life. In the US we talk about killing people in other countries when this happens, in the UK i notice a lot of people in comments on articles are talking about restricting immigration from muslim countries.
(re: Obel above)

iain was the incident on the bus by muslim extremists or some small time gangster shit?

if the assailants were white and ranting extremist dogma it would be covered the same.

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:31 PM, keltoi said:

 

 

if the assailants were white and ranting extremist dogma it would be covered the same.

i don't think that's true. While it might have been referred to as 'terrorism', the PM wouldn't have made a speech about it and there wouldn't be as part of the headline that the particular attacker was 'motivated by ____ Extremism'. The 2nd part is more iffy, it's possible that it would be mentioned but not in the same way. No other kinds of extremism, besides islamic extremism fit into the larger framework which basically drives UK and US foreign policy.

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:28 PM, Iain C said:

You see these guys?
*pic*

Pictured last night, in Woolwich? They're fascists. They don't typically riot when black men are murdered. Every news story has reported and often emphasised the racial dimension of this attack, especially the early reports before the focus shifted from "black men" to "muslims" - both media bogeymen.

edit: @eugene

they didn't riot becase a white guy got murdered, they rioted because a british soldier was murdered by muslim immigrants in what they see as a terrorist act. they wouldn't riot if white guy got murdered by a british black guy in a robbery for example.

but anyway, i was talking about the reasons for general coverage of the event by news and the reason for that particular coverage, not a reaction of some particular group.

ive always had suspicions about thos types and these sort of incidents really confirm my prejudices, vote for the edle

e: unban compson so he can set the record straight

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:28 PM, Iain C said:

You see these guys?

 

 

Pictured last night, in Woolwich? They're fascists. They don't typically riot when black men are murdered. Every news story has reported and often emphasised the racial dimension of this attack, especially the early reports before the focus shifted from "black men" to "muslims" - both media bogeymen.

 

edit: @eugene

the media has not made these people extemists, fascists. they are idiots of their own volition.

eye witnesses described "two black guys hacking a guy to death on the ground". that's factually correct! the media quoted/reported as it happened.

this is the kind of guy in the masks in your picture...

[youtubehd]BaZCaWH96xw[/youtubehd]

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:31 PM, keltoi said:

iain was the incident on the bus by muslim extremists or some small time gangster shit?

 

if the assailants were white and ranting extremist dogma it would be covered the same.

Bullshit, when white people murder others for ideological reasons it barely makes a ripple - see for example the story Rixx posted about the elderly Pakistani man who was murdered in Birmingham last month. Where were the front pages and 24-hour rolling news coverage then? You can say "Well, the attacker wasn't on camera, he wasn't vocally expressing extremist dogma" but if you think those things are the main determining factors in the kind of coverage this story has received, well I have to disagree.

The idea that the media reports stories completely neutrally with regards to race, class, religion is ludicrous. It is long, long established that this isn't the case. White victims are more newsworthy, their deaths are more tragic, and especially in this case where the assailants are Muslim it plays directly into an ongoing political/media narrative that pits "them" against "us".

Its funny that people are calling for the killers public torture. Yet these killers no doubt would like to see the UK adopt a similar legal system to that found in Saudi Arabia. With lashings, hangings, beheadings, stoning and removal of hands handed out by the state. (Of course this state of affairs is historically the result of Europea colonialism and continued imperialism which props up the Saudi regime)

But, anyway, it sounds to me like some of these people have more in common with the killers than they might think.

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:42 PM, funkaholic said:

But, anyway, it sounds to me like some of these people have more in common with the killers than they might think.

yes it really does, when i read youtube comments like the ones on this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQxM9iSXz6M

I get reminded that there are a dangerous amount of people out there ( who aren't muslim) that feel this way

I feel like the movie Munich is basically making the same point you do above (not intentionally trying to bait Eugene)

​i actually got a laugh out of the earnestness of this particular comment

  Quote

 

Hey remember that 9-11 attack? Seems like you goat fuckers struck first! Now you're all mad that our men are in you "land". YOU STARTED IT! Allah ah Fucktard!

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:39 PM, keltoi said:

 

the media has not made these people extemists, fascists. they are idiots of their own volition.

 

 

Of course the media isn't to blame for making people fascists (although some parts of it are certainly complicit) but the tone and direction of coverage can certainly incite people to reactionary violence - not just in this case but, well, everywhere and about practically anything.

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:42 PM, funkaholic said:

Its funny that people are calling for the killers public torture. Yet these killers no doubt would like to see the UK adopt a similar legal system to that found in Saudi Arabia. With lashings, hangings, beheadings, stoning and removal of hands handed out by the state. (Of course this state of affairs is historically the result of Europea colonialism and continued imperialism which props up the Saudi regime)

 

But, anyway, it sounds to me like some of these people have more in common with the killers than they might think.

Very nicely put.

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:40 PM, Iain C said:

 

  On 5/23/2013 at 1:31 PM, keltoi said:

iain was the incident on the bus by muslim extremists or some small time gangster shit?

 

if the assailants were white and ranting extremist dogma it would be covered the same.

 

Bullshit, when white people murder others for ideological reasons it barely makes a ripple - see for example the story Rixx posted about the elderly Pakistani man who was murdered in Birmingham last month. Where were the front pages and 24-hour rolling news coverage then? You can say "Well, the attacker wasn't on camera, he wasn't vocally expressing extremist dogma" but if you think those things are the main determining factors in the kind of coverage this story has received, well I have to disagree.

 

The idea that the media reports stories completely neutrally with regards to race, class, religion is ludicrous. It is long, long established that this isn't the case. White victims are more newsworthy, their deaths are more tragic, and especially in this case where the assailants are Muslim it plays directly into an ongoing political/media narrative that pits "them" against "us".

 

it doesn't make sense to disagree with it, the brutality of the event is always a strong factor for increased publicity. i guess the only way to prove it for real is for you to publicly behead an edl-er

i don't disagree with the second paragraph but in this episode it's much less of a factor.