Woolwich attack

  On 5/24/2013 at 6:03 PM, Iain C said:

Yeah but there weren't 100-odd fascists in balaclavas less than half a mile down the road from your front door clamouring for West Mids people to be expelled from the country (at best) the other night, were there? 

 

So what? That has absolutely no bearing on what I was, innocently enough (I thought) postulating... If anything that means you have a biased view on things because you saw that.

I'm not a liberal, and I honestly don't care if you think I'm doing myself a "disservice". People get angry about important things. That doesn't make them wrong.

  On 5/24/2013 at 6:07 PM, BCM said:

 

  On 5/24/2013 at 6:03 PM, Iain C said:

Yeah but there weren't 100-odd fascists in balaclavas less than half a mile down the road from your front door clamouring for West Mids people to be expelled from the country (at best) the other night, were there?

So what? That has absolutely no bearing on what I was, innocently enough (I thought) postulating... If anything that means you have a biased view on things because you saw that.

 

So it means your hypothetical situation doesn't exist in some hermetic thought-experiment bubble... it's exactly the same logic fascists use to justify murder and genocide. I suspect that if you saw Muslims as anything other than an abstracted, de-humanised, unified other you wouldn't even consider such a "thought experiment" or whatever you call it.

  On 5/24/2013 at 5:59 PM, BCM said:

Mate, you're extremely reactionary... Your posts in this thread demonstrate that very well. Dispense with the defensiveness and try and have an open discussion.... I wouldn't be remotely annoyed if someone said, for example "imagine what would happen to the world if everybody with a West Midlands heritage suddenly disappeared from planet earth"... (which would directly relate to me and my family)... Because it's just a question... Nobody is saying that's what should happen!

perhaps so, but surely you understand that talking about this specific group, given the problems of our times comes off as rather nasty.

To use your example, I can talk about people with Midlands heritage disappearing from the Earth because half of my country's population isn't discussing the cultural value and a possible culture war against people of the Midlands.

  On 5/24/2013 at 5:39 PM, SR4 said:

I still fail to see how these assumptions aren't subtly imperialistic though; why Muslims in particular? The most I ever hear about is the old chestnut that Islamic extremism is quantitatively more common or quantitatively more "extreme", which are such utterly absurd statements that those making them should not be allowed to participate in government.

they are far beyond subtle.

  On 5/24/2013 at 5:59 PM, BCM said:

Mate, you're extremely reactionary... Your posts in this thread demonstrate that very well. Dispense with the defensiveness and try and have an open discussion....

you don't find it reactionary to suggest ridding the world of muslims? I think it's far more than anything Ian said in this thread, and maybe even on the history of this forum.

again, that's not what i said - in the way that you're taking it in some sort of horrible, muderous way. i don't wish to kill anybody. would it be better if i asked what would happen if all the muslims on the planet were beamed up by a big alien spaceship?

  On 5/24/2013 at 6:02 PM, Obel said:

I know what you're saying BCM. What I was saying was a counter to that, because for every instinctive feeling I get (and I get them a lot) like "If this fucking prick just died things would be much better", I have to try and pull myself out of that thought process and think of the bigger picture. It's not a matter of proving that I'm compassionate and free-thinking, it's just BEING compassionate. Because it's thought like that which causes the problems in the first place. I think emotion needs to be take out of the equation when it comes to situations like this, because it usually leads down the wrong route.

 

Unfortunately it's so easy for people to be all "If the Muslims were gone then things would be better", and perhaps it's a nice fantasy "what if?" scenario. But it's a scenario that less intelligent and thoughtful people take to violent extremes. My point is that it's a toxic thought process that doesn't really contribute to anything... except making Iain mad. Haha

quoting this as it's spot on

  On 5/24/2013 at 7:36 PM, BCM said:

again, that's not what i said - in the way that you're taking it in some sort of horrible, muderous way. i don't wish to kill anybody. would it be better if i asked what would happen if all the muslims on the planet were beamed up by a big alien spaceship?

No because saying either of those things are beyond pointless and bring nothing constructive to the table. Your original point meant absolutely nothing more or less than saying "I am Islamophobic".

I just started reading a book called "Jihad vs McWorld" that I found at a thrift store the other day. It was written six years before 9/11 but apparently it's still a relevant picture of two forces that are eroding any capacity for true democracy: rampant global consumer capitalism and tribal fundamentalism. they are not only at odds with each other, the book says, but are also at odds with democracy.

someone else should get a copy and read it too, so we can have a thoughtful discussion about it

  On 5/24/2013 at 7:50 PM, LUDD said:

 

  On 5/24/2013 at 7:36 PM, BCM said:

again, that's not what i said - in the way that you're taking it in some sort of horrible, muderous way. i don't wish to kill anybody. would it be better if i asked what would happen if all the muslims on the planet were beamed up by a big alien spaceship?

 

 

No because saying either of those things are beyond pointless and bring nothing constructive to the table. Your original point meant absolutely nothing more or less than saying "I am Islamophobic".

 

right ok...not what i was intending again, reading far too much into it. but anyway, i'll try and explain myself.

so what happened was this: i was reading this thread and also looking at the bbc website, and came across this article which i thought was interesting and duly posted it, including a quote from the article about the major components of Islam. SR4 asked "how do you propose to deal with it?" which i took to mean the problem of fundamentalist Islam, which got me thinking about that question and just wondering what the hell the End Game of all this whole thing will be. I mean, say in 500 years or something, where will be - what will have happened to Islam, Christianity etc? So I was pondering all this and asking myself the question "so, what do we actually do?"... "fight?"..."all become Muslim?"...."ban religion?"...."what??" one of my trains of thought was along the lines of "would it just be easier if, for whatever reason, Islam didn't exist at all" - again, please don't read into this that this is what I want, just posed the question to myself... anyway, that lead me to post the thing about an event which, for some reason involved all the Muslims disappearing or whatever it was, and that's pretty much it. no harm intended at all. how about this - what about if a Hindu preacher came on TV claiming that all the Hindus were going to move to a higher plane of reality or something, and it was all over the news, and then someone on here posted a thread asking "what if all the Hindus on the planet suddenly disappeared?" - a thread pondering on the repercussions - good and bad. would that be wrong? i don't really think so imo... just asking a question, which is all I was doing. i dunno, this whole debate is weird.....so sensitive - unecessarily in my opinion. it's silly....why do i feel kind of worried when i use the word Muslim now? it's like "shit - he just used the M-word! OMG!" honestly, guys...I meant no offence.

peace.

this is challenging. of course, i think we cannot generalize all of any one religion, and to do so would be sinking down to the level of extremists and hatemongers. the tricky part is that the arab/muslim world is still a young civilization, compared to the other major ones (that have mostly come through and advanced from their adolescent phase of crusades/sacrifices/lunacy). there are many inherent flaws within it such as the legal system, violent radical viewpoints gaining political power and momentum, unfair treatment of religious/racial minorities, women and gays, and otherwise barbaric practices. when radicals gain power, and imams, leaders etc preach hatred and violence, they are putting their warped version of islam under a spotlight. -- not fair to anyone in the world, let alone their non-extremist "brothers". the very very dangerous problem here is that there is such a culture of pointing fingers at the west, that any real rational voice of geopolitical issues being brought up by the good natured, non-radical voices islamic world is immediately associated with the radical's victimization to where no one is able to hear the difference. the radical elements have such a stronghold over the culture that the infrastructure in much of the arab world promotes a perpetual mistrust of the west. Even though the majority of the arab/islamic world are good natured people, it doesn't get press. This is not the fault of the media as so many western apologists like to say... this is rather, because the way the arab/islamic voice is represented to the world stage is through these radical viewpoints...

Imagine if in the United States, our president was Jerry Falwell, and the defense secretary was New Gingrich. This is how many of those countries are- with the extreme religious/nationalistic side of their spectrum holding political power.

So, I think that the only answer to this problem is for an internal revolution to occur- not what's going on in syria, but something bigger. a penetrating, reverberating voice of the true islam that many speak of, and one that condemns 100%, without any ifs and buts the violence, hatred, misogyny, antisemitism barbarism and other hateful aspects that exist in the political power and infrastructure of that civilization.... No making a case of eye for an eye because of sanctions or occupation or drones, because that only feeds the credibility of the extremists' and their motive. Good natured true voices of Islam and the Arab world standing up and making it the number 1 priority to internally fix and root out the extremist elements of their own culture is the only way forward, as i see it. that would be a real revolution and will help promote peace and help bring all people and religions together.

THE WHOLE THING WAS FAKE!

lmao false flag also

fuck muzzers init i dont think anyone would mind if they all got fucking smashed up and thrown into the sea and we can amke britain great again this once great nation

http://youtu.be/a7cmijwvpD4

fuckin love this guy

"spitting in their mothers faces"

"M on a girls arse"

"grooming paedophile gangs"

"Ismalist"

bet he goes for a kebab after a pint

  On 5/24/2013 at 3:20 AM, jules said:

CNN.com description of kid who was murdered...

 

  Quote

There's been no indication that the 25-year-old machine gunner, drummer and father of a 2-year-old boy knew the men who attacked him with meat cleavers.

seriously? machine gunner is first? unfuckingbelievable.

 

Earlier I just saw "drummer" and father, etc. I don't see the point in being specific about his role as a machine-gunner in that intro either, you don't see people put "assault rifleman" instead of "soldier." It's a combat role. Will the press refer to Prince Harry as "assault helicopter gunner" first if he was randomly murdered in the street? I agree, it's not inaccurate but it is a bit tasteless.

His death is a shame. I haven't even read up on the killers and I really don't care. It's futile to complain about the media being fascinated by killers (especially spree shooters) to the point of making them characters or anti-heroes and shit, but I do actively avoided being pulled into myself. Same with that Jodi Arias trial bullshit in the news.

  On 5/24/2013 at 10:18 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 5/24/2013 at 3:20 AM, jules said:

CNN.com description of kid who was murdered...

 

  Quote

There's been no indication that the 25-year-old machine gunner, drummer and father of a 2-year-old boy knew the men who attacked him with meat cleavers.

seriously? machine gunner is first? unfuckingbelievable.

 

 

Earlier I just saw "drummer" and father, etc. I don't see the point in being specific about his role as a machine-gunner in that intro either, you don't see people put "assault rifleman" instead of "soldier." It's a combat role. Will the press refer to Prince Harry as "assault helicopter gunner" first if he was randomly murdered in the street? I agree, it's not inaccurate but it is a bit tasteless.

 

His death is a shame. I haven't even read up on the killers and I really don't care. It's futile to complain about the media being fascinated by killers (especially spree shooters) to the point of making them characters or anti-heroes and shit, but I do actively avoided being pulled into myself. Same with that Jodi Arias trial bullshit in the news.

 

Who fucking cares in what order the person is described? That is so silly. Let us all get in an uproar about nonsense.

It's misleading and sensationalist, that's why. It's the same with the barrage of speculative opinion articles that emerged within 24 hours of the attack with headlines like "is this the future of terrorist attacks?" "what does this mean in the changing war on terror?" etc.

  On 5/24/2013 at 10:32 PM, joshuatx said:

It's misleading and sensationalist, that's why. It's the same with the barrage of speculative opinion articles that emerged within 24 hours of the attack with headlines like "is this the future of terrorist attacks?" "what does this mean in the changing war on terror?" etc.

No, not really. It is accurate if he was in fact a machine-gunner. Sensationalist, mmmaybe, but honestly it is such a tiny detail who cares? It is just silly so silly.

Yeah. I knew what Jules was getting at, and I get what you're getting at.

Meh.

  On 5/24/2013 at 10:41 PM, joshuatx said:

Yeah. I knew what Jules was getting at, and I get what you're getting at.

 

Meh.

haha I was more replying to jules to begin with as you seemed a bit less infuriated.

sensationalism drives me crazy. sorry.

  On 5/24/2013 at 8:25 PM, BCM said:

 

  On 5/24/2013 at 7:50 PM, LUDD said:

 

  On 5/24/2013 at 7:36 PM, BCM said:

again, that's not what i said - in the way that you're taking it in some sort of horrible, muderous way. i don't wish to kill anybody. would it be better if i asked what would happen if all the muslims on the planet were beamed up by a big alien spaceship?

 

 

No because saying either of those things are beyond pointless and bring nothing constructive to the table. Your original point meant absolutely nothing more or less than saying "I am Islamophobic".

 

 

right ok...not what i was intending again, reading far too much into it. but anyway, i'll try and explain myself.

 

so what happened was this: i was reading this thread and also looking at the bbc website, and came across this article which i thought was interesting and duly posted it, including a quote from the article about the major components of Islam. SR4 asked "how do you propose to deal with it?" which i took to mean the problem of fundamentalist Islam, which got me thinking about that question and just wondering what the hell the End Game of all this whole thing will be. I mean, say in 500 years or something, where will be - what will have happened to Islam, Christianity etc? So I was pondering all this and asking myself the question "so, what do we actually do?"... "fight?"..."all become Muslim?"...."ban religion?"...."what??" one of my trains of thought was along the lines of "would it just be easier if, for whatever reason, Islam didn't exist at all" - again, please don't read into this that this is what I want, just posed the question to myself... anyway, that lead me to post the thing about an event which, for some reason involved all the Muslims disappearing or whatever it was, and that's pretty much it. no harm intended at all. how about this - what about if a Hindu preacher came on TV claiming that all the Hindus were going to move to a higher plane of reality or something, and it was all over the news, and then someone on here posted a thread asking "what if all the Hindus on the planet suddenly disappeared?" - a thread pondering on the repercussions - good and bad. would that be wrong? i don't really think so imo... just asking a question, which is all I was doing. i dunno, this whole debate is weird.....so sensitive - unecessarily in my opinion. it's silly....why do i feel kind of worried when i use the word Muslim now? it's like "shit - he just used the M-word! OMG!" honestly, guys...I meant no offence.

 

peace.

 

it's not the case that people are reading too much into what you wrote, more that you aren't reading the implications of what you've written.

when i suggested that your initial comment would cause offence you followed it up with much worse imo...

seriously sounds like something alf garnett would have said.

Huge fascist demo in central London yesterday - unfortunately I couldn't make it down to join the counter group. But next weekend the BNP are planning a march from Woolwich to a Muslim community centre in Lewisham. This is my area and while I don't particularly want to get bottles thrown at me / get beaten up by fash / get arrested, god knows I'm going to be there anyway. Because people have to fight fascism. And I encourage any of you in SE London to join, PM me if you want to meet.

Having said that, this is the BNP and they're a completely busted flush in the UK far-right at the minute. They've lost a lot of their support to "boots on the ground" groups like the EDL and have about 3 supporters nationwide as far as I'm aware. But it'd be naive to assume this won't attract the usual suspects.

  On 5/28/2013 at 4:32 PM, keltoi said:

 

  On 5/24/2013 at 8:25 PM, BCM said:

 

  On 5/24/2013 at 7:50 PM, LUDD said:

 

  On 5/24/2013 at 7:36 PM, BCM said:

again, that's not what i said - in the way that you're taking it in some sort of horrible, muderous way. i don't wish to kill anybody. would it be better if i asked what would happen if all the muslims on the planet were beamed up by a big alien spaceship?

 

 

No because saying either of those things are beyond pointless and bring nothing constructive to the table. Your original point meant absolutely nothing more or less than saying "I am Islamophobic".

 

 

right ok...not what i was intending again, reading far too much into it. but anyway, i'll try and explain myself.

 

so what happened was this: i was reading this thread and also looking at the bbc website, and came across this article which i thought was interesting and duly posted it, including a quote from the article about the major components of Islam. SR4 asked "how do you propose to deal with it?" which i took to mean the problem of fundamentalist Islam, which got me thinking about that question and just wondering what the hell the End Game of all this whole thing will be. I mean, say in 500 years or something, where will be - what will have happened to Islam, Christianity etc? So I was pondering all this and asking myself the question "so, what do we actually do?"... "fight?"..."all become Muslim?"...."ban religion?"...."what??" one of my trains of thought was along the lines of "would it just be easier if, for whatever reason, Islam didn't exist at all" - again, please don't read into this that this is what I want, just posed the question to myself... anyway, that lead me to post the thing about an event which, for some reason involved all the Muslims disappearing or whatever it was, and that's pretty much it. no harm intended at all. how about this - what about if a Hindu preacher came on TV claiming that all the Hindus were going to move to a higher plane of reality or something, and it was all over the news, and then someone on here posted a thread asking "what if all the Hindus on the planet suddenly disappeared?" - a thread pondering on the repercussions - good and bad. would that be wrong? i don't really think so imo... just asking a question, which is all I was doing. i dunno, this whole debate is weird.....so sensitive - unecessarily in my opinion. it's silly....why do i feel kind of worried when i use the word Muslim now? it's like "shit - he just used the M-word! OMG!" honestly, guys...I meant no offence.

 

peace.

 

 

it's not the case that people are reading too much into what you wrote, more that you aren't reading the implications of what you've written.

 

when i suggested that your initial comment would cause offence you followed it up with much worse imo...

 

 

 

  On 5/24/2013 at 5:19 PM, BCM said:

Unfortunately, Islam does appear to be "the problem". OK, in reality it's human beings that are the real problem, but you can't just like, kill everybody in the whole world or something... I think in the long run, for a peaceful world, Islam will have to go the way of the dodo. Might not be "right" or whatever, but then neither is much else about planet earth.

 

seriously sounds like something alf garnett would have said.

 

ok thanks for pointing it out.

i meant no harm and intended no offense. i apologise if what i wrote has offended or upset anyone. i shall refrain from posting further in this thread.

  On 5/28/2013 at 4:51 PM, Iain C said:

Huge fascist demo in central London yesterday - unfortunately I couldn't make it down to join the counter group. But next weekend the BNP are planning a march from Woolwich to a Muslim community centre in Lewisham. This is my area and while I don't particularly want to get bottles thrown at me / get beaten up by fash / get arrested, god knows I'm going to be there anyway. Because people have to fight fascism. And I encourage any of you in SE London to join, PM me if you want to meet.

 

Having said that, this is the BNP and they're a completely busted flush in the UK far-right at the minute. They've lost a lot of their support to "boots on the ground" groups like the EDL and have about 3 supporters nationwide as far as I'm aware. But it'd be naive to assume this won't attract the usual suspects.

glad to hear there are decent citizens unshaken by these poor attempts to justify racial violence and separatism.