French mag Charlie Hebdo attacked by gunmen, 12 dead

  On 1/7/2015 at 4:39 PM, triachus said:

I liked that one, should be the cover for the next issue (text says: immortal)

Most important Satire magazine http://www.titanic-magazin.dereacted (black background, french language)... Well they IIRC did usually only criticize Christianity. Probably after a risk analysis.

Side aspect: I just realized, that France exists. Because I met so few french in la entrewebbs

The 3 terrorists happen to consider themselves muslim, but this attack has nothing to do with xenophobia indeed, nor with Islam. It certainly has to do with stupidity, extremism, fanaticism, French foreign diplomacy in Mali, Syria etc.. and Islamic State calling for attacks against France.

I'm atheist myself, despise any kind of religious / spiritual dogmas, but can't help that thinking that most muslims are as shocked as we are by what happened today.

What I meant (not sure if I succeeded in making my point earlier) is that more and more people here in France aren't ashamed to be publicly racist and intolerant (they even seem proud about to vote for the Front National etc...), and such tragic event will most likely feed their ignorance / anger / stupidity.

Oh fuck, I once again couldn't resist and watched that fucking video over at liveleak. I didnt ever want to do that again. Don't know what to say. Its disgusting. I need to go out and breathe fresh air.

  On 1/7/2015 at 4:48 PM, lin said:

The 3 terrorists happen to consider themselves muslim, but this attack has nothing to do with xenophobia indeed, nor with Islam. It certainly has to do with stupidity, extremism, fanaticism, French foreign diplomacy in Mali, Syria etc.. and Islamic State calling for attacks against France.

 

I'm atheist myself, despise any kind of religious / spiritual dogmas, but can't help that thinking that most muslims are as shocked as we are by what happened today.

 

What I meant (not sure if I succeeded in making my point earlier) is that more and more people here in France aren't ashamed to be publicly racist and intolerant (they even seem proud about to vote for the Front National etc...), and such tragic event will most likely feed their ignorance / anger / stupidity.

how exactly does it have nothing to do with islam when the attackers themselves yelled that they do it to avenge the prophet or something?

it is indeed stupidity, extremism and fanaticism but it is islamic stupidity, extremism and fanaticism.

They acted as they did because of the way they believe in Islam. How can you blame any religion for these kind of acts ? Humans decide to kill in the name of their own idea of religion, they're responsible for their acts and extreme, absurd, devious and ultra-violent take on religion.

It's human stupidity / extremism / fanaticism / depravity first, and islam a far second. Of course those whose interest it is to play up the latter (media, politicians and their backers) are always going to do so.

not halal at all

  On 1/7/2015 at 5:18 PM, Bob Dobalina said:

It's human stupidity / extremism / fanaticism / depravity first, and islam a far second.

This.

Religion is like a stick that someone with ill motives would hit people with. I just wish people would stop blaming the stick.

  On 1/7/2015 at 3:53 PM, MassfreeKid said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 2:36 PM, lin said:

... and France is about to get even more xenophobic :(

I don't care much about Charlie Hebdo, barely ever read it, but damn, what a shame.

 

It's important to distinguish between xenophobia and being extremely critical of religion. There is a long atheistic tradition in France and in many european countries. But more than ever, especially in regards to Islam, it has become hard to honestly and openly criticize religion because many people define it as xenophobia. In fact, "xenophobia" is a concept that is often used these days by religious people to stigmatize atheists or to discredit people who question the values of religions.

Same in Germany. The crazy part of the story is, the same people who condemned religion and laughed about religion in the 60s/70s/80s, now defend all religions except christianity and quickly talk about "Antisemitism", "Islamophobia", "[placeholder]phobia". We have a lot of families here with a woman role model (in the name of religion) which we had (in Germany) maybe in 18th/19th century. Today, our lefties (though I must say they are split) do not criticize that role model.

Some of the comments on this video.... people like this should immediately end up on intelligence agencies watch list:

"They kill our children's in sleep, Bomb our cities, looting our properties, Mock our religious pillers and yet they want us to show mercy for these 12 degenerated pig's. "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_f9KtXPlYc

i'm afraid the stupid few have tarnished islam to the point of it now unfortunately being the problem. it's not the fault of islam or the vast majority of it's followers, but islam is the one common denominator in all of this...it's been ruined for the majority by the violent minority. maybe this was the plan all along...i do think that there has not been enough publicised detraction of any of these acts by the moderate islamic community however...had they been more vocal (or had their detractions been more widely publicised perhaps) from the beginning of all this, then i think more people would view islam in a kindly light.

  On 1/7/2015 at 5:15 PM, lin said:

They acted as they did because of the way they believe in Islam. How can you blame any religion for these kind of acts ? Humans decide to kill in the name of their own idea of religion, they're responsible for their acts and extreme, absurd, devious and ultra-violent take on religion.

you're ignoring the component of social pressure. these people were born into environments that focused on violent, exclusionary ideologies and this is the result. the gunmen probably would've been normal people if they had grown up in different environments and been exposed to alternative ideologies. you can't ignore the role of religion, politics, society, etc. on their actions. when you do, you give human free-will too much credit.

  On 1/7/2015 at 5:15 PM, lin said:

They acted as they did because of the way they believe in Islam. How can you blame any religion for these kind of acts ? Humans decide to kill in the name of their own idea of religion, they're responsible for their acts and extreme, absurd, devious and ultra-violent take on religion.

because islam allows this way of believing in it/interpreting it, in short they didn't see a contradiction of their act and islam but probably the opposite. it's absurd not to look for a motivational factor within the religion. it's like pacifism doesn't allow any kinds of violence so it's unthinkable that someone will kill in the name of pacifism, but it isn't so when you consider islam.

  On 1/7/2015 at 6:14 PM, BCM said:

i'm afraid the stupid few have tarnished islam to the point of it now unfortunately being the problem. it's not the fault of islam or the vast majority of it's followers, but islam is the one common denominator in all of this...it's been ruined for the majority by the violent minority. maybe this was the plan all along...i do think that there has not been enough publicised detraction of any of these acts by the moderate islamic community however...had they been more vocal (or had their detractions been more widely publicised perhaps) from the beginning of all this, then i think more people would view islam in a kindly light.

well said, and while i personally would never say that "islam has now become the problem", there is much to be said that the perspective of the religion of Islam as a whole from the rest of the world unfortunately draws more influence from the increasing extremist acts that are happening than from the passive majority. In other words, the ball is in the militants court here. That's the powerful part of terrorism- it works. It turns groups against each other. This is of course never the fault of the majority, but the silence of moderate communities is deafening. The lack of reform in conservative Islamic regions is maddening. The lack of self deprecation, humor and inward-analysis is frightening. I think it's far past due time for a true revolution/period of enlightenment and reform from within Islamic communities and cultures, and the support and platform to be able to say "fuck my religion" (or aspects of it), or "fuck the status quo in my culture" without some kind of tragic consequences. Reform is what keeps religions and civilizations healthy and prosperous. Just as importantly, all religions and philosophies need a sense of humor, lightheartedness and the room for self-analysis and self-deprecation. In other words, Islamic/Arab culture could use some punk rock.

Grim but unsurprising, given how this tribalist death-cult seems to be becoming increasingly popular. But how can stuff like this realistically ever be stopped, without resorting to authoritarianism?

  On 1/7/2015 at 6:40 PM, Lane Visitor said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 6:14 PM, BCM said:

i'm afraid the stupid few have tarnished islam to the point of it now unfortunately being the problem. it's not the fault of islam or the vast majority of it's followers, but islam is the one common denominator in all of this...it's been ruined for the majority by the violent minority. maybe this was the plan all along...i do think that there has not been enough publicised detraction of any of these acts by the moderate islamic community however...had they been more vocal (or had their detractions been more widely publicised perhaps) from the beginning of all this, then i think more people would view islam in a kindly light.

well said, and while i personally would never say that "islam has now become the problem", there is much to be said that the perspective of the religion of Islam as a whole from the rest of the world unfortunately draws more influence from the increasing extremist acts that are happening than from the passive majority. In other words, the ball is in the militants court here. That's the powerful part of terrorism- it works. It turns groups against each other. This is of course never the fault of the majority, but the silence of moderate communities is deafening. The lack of reform in conservative Islamic regions is maddening. The lack of self deprecation, humor and inward-analysis is frightening. I think it's far past due time for a true revolution/period of enlightenment and reform from within Islamic communities and cultures, and the support and platform to be able to say "fuck my religion" (or aspects of it), or "fuck the status quo in my culture" without some kind of tragic consequences. Reform is what keeps religions and civilizations healthy and prosperous. Just as importantly, all religions and philosophies need a sense of humor, lightheartedness and the room for self-analysis and self-deprecation. In other words, Islamic/Arab culture could use some punk rock.

Cartoonist friend of mine did this:

  On 1/7/2015 at 5:01 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 4:48 PM, lin said:

The 3 terrorists happen to consider themselves muslim, but this attack has nothing to do with xenophobia indeed, nor with Islam. It certainly has to do with stupidity, extremism, fanaticism, French foreign diplomacy in Mali, Syria etc.. and Islamic State calling for attacks against France.

 

I'm atheist myself, despise any kind of religious / spiritual dogmas, but can't help that thinking that most muslims are as shocked as we are by what happened today.

 

What I meant (not sure if I succeeded in making my point earlier) is that more and more people here in France aren't ashamed to be publicly racist and intolerant (they even seem proud about to vote for the Front National etc...), and such tragic event will most likely feed their ignorance / anger / stupidity.

 

how exactly does it have nothing to do with islam when the attackers themselves yelled that they do it to avenge the prophet or something?

it is indeed stupidity, extremism and fanaticism but it is islamic stupidity, extremism and fanaticism.

 

eugene, better stop with portraying yourself as uber-naive (i mean, how else to explain you logic?)... i guess, it works for you sometimes, somewhere, but not on watmm.

Salman Rushdie puts it well:

  Quote

"Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms.

"This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.

"I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.

"'Respect for religion' has become a code phrase meaning 'fear of religion.' Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect."

 

Just heard about this. I'm not about to condemn an entire religion, but I do condemn those who take their beliefs so seriously they're willing to kill unarmed civilians for it.

some military expert just said on croatian tv that he thinks that the killers must be professionals by the way they did the killings, the way they moved with guns, how everything was planed, how they managed to escape... et cetera

by "professionals" he mostly meant 'they did something similar before and more then once' but they could also be real pro fighters

  On 1/7/2015 at 8:37 PM, xox said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 5:01 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 4:48 PM, lin said:

The 3 terrorists happen to consider themselves muslim, but this attack has nothing to do with xenophobia indeed, nor with Islam. It certainly has to do with stupidity, extremism, fanaticism, French foreign diplomacy in Mali, Syria etc.. and Islamic State calling for attacks against France.

 

I'm atheist myself, despise any kind of religious / spiritual dogmas, but can't help that thinking that most muslims are as shocked as we are by what happened today.

 

What I meant (not sure if I succeeded in making my point earlier) is that more and more people here in France aren't ashamed to be publicly racist and intolerant (they even seem proud about to vote for the Front National etc...), and such tragic event will most likely feed their ignorance / anger / stupidity.

 

how exactly does it have nothing to do with islam when the attackers themselves yelled that they do it to avenge the prophet or something?

it is indeed stupidity, extremism and fanaticism but it is islamic stupidity, extremism and fanaticism.

 

 

 

eugene, better stop with portraying yourself as uber-naive (i mean, how else to explain you logic?)... i guess, it works for you sometimes, somewhere, but not on watmm.

 

you're hinting that this is some sneaky, jewy, zionistic attack on islam in order to justify the glorious nation of israel in the guise of legitimate criticism? well no, that's not that, fuck off.