French mag Charlie Hebdo attacked by gunmen, 12 dead

  On 1/8/2015 at 3:18 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

 

.

That's Marine Le Pen's Front National / Rassemblement Bleu Marine logo. The "Monkey" is progressive french Minister Christiane Taubira, she embodies progressist ideas such as Gay marriage. Being a black woman, she unfortunately often caricatured/insulted by her most extremist opponents as a monkey, eating bananas etc...

So yes, that´s a satire that looks like a racist drawing without its context.

Thank you for clearing that up.

I'm very sorry, and very angry about what happened in your country today.

  On 1/8/2015 at 4:46 AM, delet... said:

 

  On 1/8/2015 at 4:20 AM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

 

  On 1/8/2015 at 3:52 AM, delet... said:

lol @ all the idiots rationalizing the murder of some artists. You could use those arguments about "how we treat them and all that we've done to them", if we are talking about the politicians, think tank wackoes and leaders of the foreign and internal security services getting wacked by IS extremists. It would then be especially salient given the tacit and covert support that they have given in training extremists to go to war for an agenda devised and implemented in the interests of a very narrow section of the upper echelons of western society. But to somehow gloat over these murders of artists and political satirists (and one economist) which attack the heart of western liberal democracy, the concept of free conveyance of ideas. Dear god, pull that politically correct deprogramming chip out of your collective brains before it's too late.

 

watmm outpost of wahhabi extremism, who'd have though it.

no one is rationalising these actions to the point of praising them or anything. no way in hell. i think people are just advising others to not be so irrational in tagging islam as the key problem here.

 

 

They are islamic extremists, using their religion to justify their actions, you can't divorce one from the other. And a broad swathe of people of that faith whilst not violent in their disgust over any slight against their sainted grand pooba and his toilet paper ideologies, would be for shutting down of any 'hate' speech that criticized their precious childhood fairy tales. Those guys didn't go there for a political reason, say to protest violently the annexation of palestine or something, their beef was purely religious in origin and that religion was islam, just like you would call it christian extremisism if some christian militia group shot up someone for taking the lord's name in vain. That would be the banner and the headline, before you dug down to particular sects and what have you. Although i would suggest that the predominance of christians are far more tolerant to criticism of dogma than the followers of pooba are.

 

No, the important word is extremists, not Islamic. To be honest extremists of all stripes are just more idiotic about the level to which they believe in fairy tales.

When religion is used to propagate political ideas, (ie restrictions on speech) then it is fairly clear they went there for political reasons, not religious ones.

And you would suggest that based on what sort of statistical evidence?

Whether or not Islamic culture is different and or part of the problem of the acts of extremism is not really interesting if you ask me. What's interesting, imo, is the solution. And regardless of anyone's opinion on this matter, I think it's pretty safe to say that Islam must be part of the solution. The Islamic community should take action.

What's worrisome is whether the media picks up on these initiatives. Because it's fair to say that the non islamic community has no idea what is happening within the islamic community to do something against extremism, i believe. In which case it is pretty obvious why the non islamic community sees islam as part of the problem. (Even though it's also the case that large part of the islamic community lives in autoritarian states, which creates an extra set of challenges for the islamic community to actually raise their voice in any meaningful way)

Those are my thoughts exactly, goDel.

I hereby anounce the birth of a new religion: trancendental telepathy. I'll play the Moses role and you could play the messiah. I guess i have to make up some lore about how to live and stuff like that.

*walks up a mountain in search for a trancendental telepathic god*

*takes some drugs, sees golden tablets that no one else can see*

your mantra is get rich or die tryin.

  On 1/8/2015 at 8:56 AM, chenGOD said:

*takes some drugs, sees golden tablets that no one else can see*

 

 

your mantra is get rich or die tryin.

.............

mormon? lol

dum dum dum dum dum

  On 1/8/2015 at 8:57 AM, StephenG said:

 

  On 1/8/2015 at 8:56 AM, chenGOD said:

 

*takes some drugs, sees golden tablets that no one else can see*

 

 

your mantra is get rich or die tryin.

.............

 

 

mormon? lol

 

dum dum dum dum dum

#HappyNewYear #CrossFit #Yolo

  On 1/8/2015 at 8:35 AM, goDel said:

Whether or not Islamic culture is different and or part of the problem of the acts of extremism is not really interesting if you ask me. What's interesting, imo, is the solution. And regardless of anyone's opinion on this matter, I think it's pretty safe to say that Islam must be part of the solution. The Islamic community should take action.

What's worrisome is whether the media picks up on these initiatives. Because it's fair to say that the non islamic community has no idea what is happening within the islamic community to do something against extremism, i believe. In which case it is pretty obvious why the non islamic community sees islam as part of the problem. (Even though it's also the case that large part of the islamic community lives in autoritarian states, which creates an extra set of challenges for the islamic community to actually raise their voice in any meaningful way)

Great post. Some others in this thread really upset me but this feels far better.

  On 1/8/2015 at 5:03 AM, autopilot said:

I enjoy outlandish stories, I just prefer them to have space stations, lasers, and/or werewolves.

this.

Religion is a cancer. Get over it.

  On 1/8/2015 at 10:06 AM, 2202 said:

 

  On 1/8/2015 at 5:03 AM, autopilot said:

I enjoy outlandish stories, I just prefer them to have space stations, lasers, and/or werewolves.

this.

 

Religion is a cancer. Get over it.

 

No, stupidity is.

See that's exactly the kind of post that drives me nuts. Ffs seriously. A little more depth please ? Shit happens with or without religion. Stop blaming it, blame the people that act wrong.

  On 1/8/2015 at 3:18 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

to no one's surprise, the same 'heroic' french magazine also frequently ran cartoons portraying blacks as monkeys and other caricatures. These screenshots make South Park look like PC liberal friendly light humor.

 

 

 

 

just might be a good idea to be a little cautious before standing behind these cartoonists. If some Islamic dude killed Stormfront here, it would probably be a really stupid idea to proclaim it was a freedom of speech/censorship issue (unless you're ok with being a racist moron)

 

edit: or maybe someone could enlighten me, is it socially acceptable to be openly racist in France? Im from the US, so my perspective may be a tad skewed, because here this is definitely not ok.

You distance by which the point of those drawings flew over your head is measured in light years

People act wrong in the name of everything. Money, politics, religion, you name it... In the end these are just pieces of wood. Some people build little or great things with them, others hit their peers.

Do you seriously think that without religion we still wouldn't see terrible acts of intolerance like this one ? Pretty shallow.

i think we'd certainly see a lot less of them...

I'm afraid there's an awful lot we don't see.

for the french-speaking: http://www.voltairenet.org/article186408.html

  On 1/7/2015 at 2:23 PM, Perezvon said:

Although I've always hated Charlie Hebdo with my guts for their shit humor, their cowardice and their blatant absence of any finesse whatsoever, this makes me sick in my tummy. Wow. Nobody deserves this.

  On 1/8/2015 at 10:28 AM, Perezvon said:

People act wrong in the name of everything. Money, politics, religion, you name it... In the end these are just pieces of wood. Some people build little or great things with them, others hit their peers.

 

Do you seriously think that without religion we still wouldn't see terrible acts of intolerance like this one ? Pretty shallow.

  On 1/8/2015 at 3:52 AM, delet... said:

lol @ all the idiots rationalizing the murder of some artists.

 

But to somehow gloat over these murders of artists and political satirists (and one economist) which attack the heart of western liberal democracy, the concept of free conveyance of ideas. Dear god, pull that politically correct deprogramming chip out of your collective brains before it's too late.

But on the other hand you guys approved, applauded, defended and justified the intolerance and violence that occured to the artist who erected that buttplug in paris

Moral hypocrites

  On 1/8/2015 at 11:11 AM, triachus said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 2:23 PM, Perezvon said:

Although I've always hated Charlie Hebdo with my guts for their shit humor, their cowardice and their blatant absence of any finesse whatsoever, this makes me sick in my tummy. Wow. Nobody deserves this.

  On 1/8/2015 at 10:28 AM, Perezvon said:

People act wrong in the name of everything. Money, politics, religion, you name it... In the end these are just pieces of wood. Some people build little or great things with them, others hit their peers.

 

Do you seriously think that without religion we still wouldn't see terrible acts of intolerance like this one ? Pretty shallow.

  On 1/8/2015 at 3:52 AM, delet... said:

lol @ all the idiots rationalizing the murder of some artists.

 

But to somehow gloat over these murders of artists and political satirists (and one economist) which attack the heart of western liberal democracy, the concept of free conveyance of ideas. Dear god, pull that politically correct deprogramming chip out of your collective brains before it's too late.

 

But on the other hand you guys approved, applauded, defended and justified the intolerance and violence that occured to the artist who erected that buttplug in paris

 

 

Moral hypocrites

 

Yeah sure because a slap in the face is on the same scale as a mass killing. Deflating a lame ass buttplug also is a "terrible act of intolerance like this one".

Oh so there's an acceptable scale of violence?

  On 1/7/2015 at 4:23 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 4:20 PM, Perezvon said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 3:34 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 3:06 PM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 3:03 PM, Perezvon said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 2:50 PM, Rubin Farr said:

Islamists needs a sense of humor ffs.

pls

 

yeah was gonna say...

 

extremism =/= islam

 

two different concepts.

 

but this is islamic extremism, not pacifist extremism. it doesn't make sense to pretend like those are completely separate spheres.

 

You live in Israel yet you don't feel any close to zionist extremism, do you?

It does make sense. Muslims have nothing to answer for about this.

 

not particular muslims but islam.

 

I have to agree. We need to stop pretending Islam is a religion of peace. The majority of muslims are peaceful and I don't blame them for anything that happened, but I'm getting tired of these politcally correct people saying Islamist extremism has nothing to do with the Qran or Islam. It has everything do with it. Islam, in the wrong hands, is a religion of terror and intolerance. But there's not much we can do about it. I don't believe it's known who the attackers were? If they are from a forreign country it's not like we can educate them, or even intervene, because with the war on terror we have seen what that leads to.

There's a point where we all would like to give some nut a good slap at the back of the head. I didn't say it wasn't wrong, I'm not saying I'm pristine myself. Now comparing this to a mass killing... excuse me but that's some bad faith (no pun intended) right there. But yeah, I'm full of contradictions sure, especially in a context that involves people getting murdered. I'm never thinking about that kind of stuff, sorry.

I've tried to abstain from wading into this thread and I apologise if this point has already been raised, but I feel many people are angrily jumping to the easy conclusions purveyed by certain media. The wide majority of Muslims do not interpret Islam as condoning violent crimes against an 'infidel'. Unfortunately, it is the few that do who mare the religion and create the false assumption of an inherently evil religion in the minds of non-Muslims.

An extract from the Quran: (Surah Al-Ma’idah 5:32) "That if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or to spread corruption in the land – it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. If anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind."

For a well-measured and nuanced opinion on the topic of satirising extremist interpretations of a religion, have a listen to this interview with Chris Morris recorded whilst he was promoting Four Lions in the US:

https://wfmu.org/flashplayer.php?version=2&show=37993&archive=64779&starttime=0:00:00

  On 1/8/2015 at 11:39 AM, Verdant Hickies said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 4:23 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 4:20 PM, Perezvon said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 3:34 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 3:06 PM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 3:03 PM, Perezvon said:

 

  On 1/7/2015 at 2:50 PM, Rubin Farr said:

Islamists needs a sense of humor ffs.

pls

 

yeah was gonna say...

 

extremism =/= islam

 

two different concepts.

 

but this is islamic extremism, not pacifist extremism. it doesn't make sense to pretend like those are completely separate spheres.

 

You live in Israel yet you don't feel any close to zionist extremism, do you?

It does make sense. Muslims have nothing to answer for about this.

 

not particular muslims but islam.

 

I have to agree. We need to stop pretending Islam is a religion of peace. The majority of muslims are peaceful and I don't blame them for anything that happened, but I'm getting tired of these politcally correct people saying Islamist extremism has nothing to do with the Qran or Islam. It has everything do with it. Islam, in the wrong hands, is a religion of terror and intolerance. But there's not much we can do about it. I don't believe it's known who the attackers were? If they are from a forreign country it's not like we can educate them, or even intervene, because with the war on terror we have seen what that leads to.

 

The attackers are (most likely) known, they are two Algerian immigrants, brothers who grew up in an orphanage in France. They just returned from Syria last year, which explains the training. Also, before the radicalization, one of the brothers spent his life delivering pizzas, smoking weed, drinking booze and more Islam forbids.

I'm already sighing at the sight of rightwinged populists like Geert Wilders calling the "what, islam = peace right?! Well, what about these idiots then?!" card. It's the same as blaming Slipknot and Marilyn Manson for school shootings. There are 1.6 billion muslims in the world, if the ideology wasn't a peaceful one then the world would've been a lot worse. Like you said, Islam in the wrong hands is a religion of terror, but you can replace 'Islam' in that sentence with anything that has a 1.6 billion people following and you have the same thing. Hateful remarks like the Wilders one above result in xenophobia and innocent people getting hurt, like when someone just threw a grenade towards a mosque in Paris this morning.

We have a prefrontal cortex, please use that instead of your limbic system.

Did anyone consider that hostage moron in Sydney recently a true muslim? Same with these guys imo, they are just very troubled people looking for an identity (based on their previous lifestyles and upbringing).

On a sidenote: one of the most annoying things I saw this morning was some US (probably Republican) politician use this incident to defend the right to have guns because 'then the cartoonists would at least had a chance'. Incredible.

edit: second sidenote: the police agent that was shot apparently was a muslim himself. This doesn't say or imply anything of worth, but thought this but from the article was worth posting too: