EU

lol

Based solely on my experiences with a super racist polish gym teacher back in middle school, I'm going to agree with phling.

Chen, I hope you see the nuance in my position

I am mostly pro-immigration

Muslims belong here as much as anyone does IMO

Don't lump me in with nationalists

Why do you disappear for three weeks then post constantly for a week then fuck off again? Im seeing a pattern emerge. I figured relapse and/or jail. But its too synchronised to be junkie shit. There some kind of limits put on your internet use. Im here to get to the bottom of it.

Also, jev, be proud of your polish history instead of trying to worm yourself into another neighbouring country. Repeating yourself and being boring and evasive never fooled anyone. You have zero charisma. You're in poland to stay. Show pride, Not Shame.

  On 8/29/2016 at 10:00 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 8/29/2016 at 3:17 AM, WNS000 said:

 

  On 8/29/2016 at 2:29 AM, chenGOD said:

1. Didn't you say that Muslims weren't allowed to have any variation in their religion?
2. The Pew data shows some significant variation in Muslim attitudes and beliefs, including how they interpret religion.
3. And for someone who loves being all analytical, your not very willing to look at the percentage of population Muslims make up in Europe, and that's assuming all the refugees end up staying, which I'd guess they probably won't.
4. So if I ask one Muslim friend, or show you evidence of Muslims accepting things like LGBT rights, or women's rights, and the things you listed, what would your response be?

 

1. Yes. Of course there can be exceptions but I am interested in the majority (average Sunnis) and their leaders. If there are "bad Muslims" being liberal then that's great and I hope they will become more prominent soon (not happening but one can dream). I have never said Muslims cannot change as people. You don't have to reform a religion if you don't give a fuck about religion in the first place. Agnosticism, pure spiritualism or atheism are perfectly valid alternatives to a stupid organized religion plague bullshit.
2. The PEW data shows that majority of Muslims believes in and wants Sharia law. Overwhelming majority of Muslims believes homosexuality is immoral (which isn't a very nice in combination with Sharia law). Also:

     Quote

    

   In 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also favor stoning unfaithful spouses.

   That is quite a significant number if you ask me and it clearly shows that a huge number of their population has a long way to go.

3. You should look at data about Muslim fertility and the policy of family reunification.

     Quote

    

   Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe. According to the Pew Research Center, the Muslim population in Europe (excluding Turkey) was about 30 million in 1990, 44 million in 2010 and is expected to increase to 58 million by 2030; the Muslim share of the population increased from 4.1% in 1990 to 6% in 2010 and will continue to increase over the next 40 years, reaching 10% in 2050. There were approximately 19 million Muslims in the European Union in 2010 or about (3.8%).

   But if you don't care about the future I get your point. Also, it is a wrong assumption that Muslim population must be at least 50% (or any other significant number) in Europe before problems occurs. How many Nazis were in Germany around the WW2?

     Quote

    

   Before Hitler seized power (in 1933) only 850,000 out of 66 million Germans were card-carrying Nazis. After the Nazi seizure of power, there was a big surge in membership. At its peak, Party membership reached 8 million out of 80 million Germans in 'Greater Germany' or about ten percent of the population.

   Which is an example of how easily can be masses manipulated and how fast can a movement gain support and power and also how an active, ideologically strong minority can completely dominate a passive, quiet majority. If the world population consisted only of secular, liberal, pacifist intellectuals I wouldn't probably care about immigration and multiculturalism at all. You also have to consider an average European citizens and their psychology, needs and fears. Intellectual talks are interesting and fun but does not really have a significant impact on majority of average people. It does not take that many people to start a long-lasting civil war (look at Ukraine) and begin the snowball effect. What I mean is that the risk are not only Muslims - the risk are also the Europeans running out of patience. Masses and their behaviour. The whole time my argument is based on my fear of instability and atrocities in Europe. I simply don't want anyone to suffer. No Europeans, no Muslims. See my post.

4. My response would be "That is great! Hopefully they will soon be a vocal majority! But I shouldn't be dreaming that much!" You also should take into account what would they say in their Muslim communities were they asked the same questions...

 

 

So you start with a "no true scotsman" and then just descend into your own assumptions, climaxing with a Godwin, and then in post-coitus return to the "no true scotsman".

 

You say over and over again, that your views on this are evolving/changing - but it's always the same tired argument. We all get it - you're a scared man who doesn't think his culture can live up to the influx of less than 1% of the population (in Poland, where you are) to maybe 10%. And that assumes fertility rates stay the same, although Pew research on Muslims who live in the US indicates that while their  fertility rates are slightly higher than the US general population, they are much below that of Muslims who live in less developed countries.

 

I mean it would be great if you and limpy were at least making a new argument - but this has been widely covered by one of the most renowned political scientists, only he wrote about it back in 1993. Here's the article, maybe you guys can come up with some actual decent arguments.

Why should I change my argument when it is still valid and hasn't been disputed yet by anybody? Until you show me data that supports your multicultural advocacy I am going to stick to my argument. I have data, I have logical arguments, I have psychological experience. You just keep repeating that Muslims doesn't have enough people to become a problem in EU, completely ignoring historical experience with powerful minorities dominating passive majorities. I don't even know where to start. That's how weak and non-existent your arguments are. Ask your Muslim friends, show me data disputing the PEW research, dispute the psychology of masses etc. Then we can talk. So far you have nothing (I will read the article but I would prefer it if it was in a more readable format, do you have a link?).

  On 8/29/2016 at 10:39 AM, phling said:

is this a fact that Jev is Polish?

no fucking surprise. It's the shittest country in existence.

Pretty sure if I still lived there (thankfully my parents escaped that shithole in ’85), I would be just as racist as Jev (and many, many other Poles). It's not his fault. But also, look at the country. Fucking incompatible imo.

LOL, this is unbelievable. So on one hand you have this opinion that Muslims are OK, they can integrate and there are no significant differences that would prevent successful multiculturalism in the world while on the other hand you have completely no problem rating a nation (Poles) and generalizing them into a racist culture. I mean...sorry, but how incredibly stupid one has to be to come up with thinking like this? Are you completely out of your mind? You clearly state how a nation (a culture) can have certain strong behaviour and thinking and yet advocate for multiculturalism? WHAT THE FUCK?? 1 + 1 = 3?

Also, the typical "racist" argument. No, I am not racist because I don't rate people based on their race. I would even say that you might be a racist because you clearly consider race to be a factor contributing to different behaviours (since you call me racist when I talk culture). I don't. Were you forced to skip elementary school?

  On 8/29/2016 at 4:35 PM, doublename said:

Based solely on my experiences with a super racist polish gym teacher back in middle school, I'm going to agree with phling.

hahahaha, same as above. You guys are lost. Basic logic clearly isn't one of your strong skills. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Absolutely unbelievable... just wow.

  On 8/29/2016 at 7:52 PM, Schlitze said:

Why do you disappear for three weeks then post constantly for a week then fuck off again? Im seeing a pattern emerge. I figured relapse and/or jail. But its too synchronised to be junkie shit. There some kind of limits put on your internet use. Im here to get to the bottom of it.

 

I'm afraid the answer isn't that interesting

I've been studying music all-day-every-day for the last two months

And before that my internet would get turned off for non-payment (junk-related, though only indirectly) and it would stay off until I could pay the bill and the restart fee and that happens every few months because I have no idea what I'm doing

  On 8/29/2016 at 7:52 PM, Schlitze said:

Why do you disappear for three weeks then post constantly for a week then fuck off again? Im seeing a pattern emerge. I figured relapse and/or jail. But its too synchronised to be junkie shit. There some kind of limits put on your internet use. Im here to get to the bottom of it.

Also, jev, be proud of your polish history instead of trying to worm yourself into another neighbouring country. Repeating yourself and being boring and evasive never fooled anyone. You have zero charisma. You're in poland to stay. Show pride, Not Shame.

Thanks, man. Always good laugh :-)

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:06 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 8/29/2016 at 7:52 PM, Schlitze said:

Why do you disappear for three weeks then post constantly for a week then fuck off again? Im seeing a pattern emerge. I figured relapse and/or jail. But its too synchronised to be junkie shit. There some kind of limits put on your internet use. Im here to get to the bottom of it.

I'm afraid the answer isn't that interesting

I've been studying music all-day-every-day for the last two months

And before that my internet would get turned off for non-payment (junk-related, though only indirectly) and it would stay off until I could pay the bill and the restart fee and that happens every few months because I have no idea what I'm doing

 

Did you move to New England specifically for the opiates? 

@ Jev - You can't seriously think I was seriously being serious? 

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:06 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 8/29/2016 at 7:52 PM, Schlitze said:

Why do you disappear for three weeks then post constantly for a week then fuck off again? Im seeing a pattern emerge. I figured relapse and/or jail. But its too synchronised to be junkie shit. There some kind of limits put on your internet use. Im here to get to the bottom of it.

I'm afraid the answer isn't that interesting

I've been studying music all-day-every-day for the last two months

And before that my internet would get turned off for non-payment (junk-related, though only indirectly) and it would stay off until I could pay the bill and the restart fee and that happens every few months because I have no idea what I'm doing

 

Do you study music theory?

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:08 PM, doublename said:

 

@ Jev - You can't seriously think I was seriously being serious?

I seriously thought that! Sorry, man, my sarcasm detector isn't that sensitive.

@doublename

I was born and braised in South Portland, ME

When I started developing wanderlust I bravely and heroically made the pilgrimage north to Portland, ME and haven't looked back

^ lol

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:06 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

I'm afraid the answer isn't that interesting

I've been studying music all-day-every-day for the last two months

And before that my internet would get turned off for non-payment (junk-related, though only indirectly) and it would stay off until I could pay the bill and the restart fee and that happens every few months because I have no idea what I'm doing

 

Yeah that is a disappointment, I appreciate your honesty though. When you go offline next week at least we know what you are doing. Not rotting in a cell, you're being productive. I really hope you're not lying.

wow, poles on watmm?! wtf joyrex? i thought it was pretty commonsensical that the onion people are not to be allowed here.

@Jev

Yeah I've been studying Bartok, Ligeti, Rautavaara, Messiaen, Xenakis, Lutoslawsky, Bach...and then what usually gets called "ethnomusicology" like African and Indian rhythmic systems and 'Pygmy' music and spectral music and how the French modernists used certain aspects of language/poetry and then how natural systems relate to music (e.g. apparently the concept/etymology of the word "rhythm" comes from the sounds of water...and how most/all aspects of music have deep deep biological/primordial origins...quite opposite of the "sonic cheesecake" that Steven Pinker et all think music is)

I actually wrote a huge-ass post last night to share some of my interesting findings

But when I was nearly done I accidentally the 'camera' button and lost all of it and got really bummed about having to start all over...if there's enough interest I will though

Sorry for way off topic

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:21 PM, Schlitze said:

 

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:06 PM, LimpyLoo said:

I'm afraid the answer isn't that interesting

I've been studying music all-day-every-day for the last two months

And before that my internet would get turned off for non-payment (junk-related, though only indirectly) and it would stay off until I could pay the bill and the restart fee and that happens every few months because I have no idea what I'm doing

 

Yeah that is a disappointment, I appreciate your honesty though. When you go offline next week at least we know what you are doing. Not rotting in a cell, you're being productive. I really hope you're not lying.

I've never been to jail

(It's kinda hard going to jail as a simple user unless DA is convinced you're dealing, which I do not)

Yeah I think the stereotype of a junkie is very low-functioning...I'm fairly productive and I'm certainly not the drooling nodding-off stereotype (I've only met a couple people for whom a habit brought their life to a grinding halt)

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:37 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:21 PM, Schlitze said:

I'm certainly not the drooling nodding-off stereotype

Did you know that's Anthony Hopkins in there?

For your fyi imo lgbt AAA byob tgif fubar a/s/l because 789 420 69 gtfolmao

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:30 PM, LimpyLoo said:

@Jev

 

Yeah I've been studying Bartok, Ligeti, Rautavaara, Messiaen, Xenakis, Lutoslawsky, Bach...and then what usually gets called "ethnomusicology" like African and Indian rhythmic systems and 'Pygmy' music and spectral music and how the French modernists used certain aspects of language/poetry and then how natural systems relate to music (e.g. apparently the concept/etymology of the word "rhythm" comes from the sounds of water...and how most/all aspects of music have deep deep biological/primordial origins...quite opposite of the "sonic cheesecake" that Steven Pinker et all think music is)

 

I actually wrote a huge-ass post last night to share some of my interesting findings

But when I was nearly done I accidentally the 'camera' button and lost all of it and got really bummed about having to start all over...if there's enough interest I will though

 

 

Sorry for way off topic

Cool! Can we expect it to have a noticeable impact on your production? I have to listen to something you have made. You seem quite involved.

Oh and write the long posts in word or notepad and then paste it later...

Yeah, sorry for off topic too.

My electronic music output has completely fallen off due to workflow issues that seem unsolvable...I am really really bad at the 'production' side of production...currently I am working on a cycle of solo piano pieces called "Death Rituals" that I'll be sending off to some composer competitions...it's really strange and disorienting because I have no clue what the field is like, whether I'm way ahead of the curve or way behind...at either rate, I know at least my fundamentals are solid and I know what most of the great composers were up to throughout history...we'll see, I guess

Time to switch shit up with a little bit of commentary from a dumb American. I'm in the EU currently. Flew in to Iceland, spent some time there, then flew to Germany, tomorrow I head off to Italy for a while. I figured we could steer this EU thread in a direction using me as a patsy. 

Some observations

First, Iceland

• Icelandic people are either waaaay too 'americanized' or just odd, silent dickheads. 
• In Iceland, cats rule the capital and the ENTIRETY of the southern route is controlled by sheep. Seriously, those fuckers are everywhere. Like, even up the side of a 200+ meter mountain/cliff and swimming across huge rivers.
• Loads of hay-bales in the countryside. I can only assume this explains the multitude of Domino's Pizza's on the island
• What the fuck is with the 'yellow-red' light in the EU?
• Icelandic drivers are just assholes. It's like a politeness thing or something... or lack thereof. I was terrified of the speed cameras they have and I'd go slow in the right lane. People will literally drive an inch off your bumper but not pass you. Super weird. 
• All the hot-water in the capital smells like deviled egg farts
• Buildings are far too hot for what you have to wear to stay comfortable outside. Going around to shops you basically strip down because it's 90 degrees in there, then you have to pile it on to go outside because even their summer is cold.
• Icelandic dudes all have the same haircut 
• they have even worse pop radio than the states, something I thought only existed in SE Asia. 

Second, Germany (Bravaria specifically) 

• Germans are very stern individuals who really don't get some types of humor
• The women range from 'incredibly attractive' to 'dear god what is that?' in a much wider and frequent array than in the states
• They really don't like weed, which seems weird because of how the vibe is with the drinking and chain-smoking
• Americans have a reputation for being dicks or arrogant from what I've heard, but it seems like it's the opposite to me. Europeans by and large in my travels are dicks to people they don't know. I'm a pretty overly-courteous person to well-meaning strangers so I've been put off by some of the abrupt and undeserved assholeness in some of my interactions with people who are in 'service' sectors of work.
• The trains need wifi and a fucking breeze. The air is stifling as fuck and I find it really odd that you can hop on a train going for like 6 hours and not have any wifi...
• Everyone drives nice cars
• Nobody realizes I'm not German until I can't speak in a language they understand. Got a little weird when a cop came up to me and really started talking fast. I believe I said 'no habla german' in my drunken state
• Deodorant, not cologne. Or something. But fuck me, it's a smelly occasion in one way or another. Either they're just letting it go raw or there is a miasma of designer scents the chokes the life from you.
• EVERYONE IS TAN

Everything else is amazing, I love the places I've been and people I've met. Beautiful countries so far (just got in from Austria for the day) and I'm excited for Italy. 

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:26 PM, eugene said:

wow, poles on watmm?! wtf joyrex? i thought it was pretty commonsensical that the onion people are not to be allowed here.

lol. Eugene in for the save.

Welcome to Europe!

Bavaria isn't Germany in my opinion

you think that's bad, wait til the turks take over

  On 8/29/2016 at 8:03 PM, WNS000 said:

 

  On 8/29/2016 at 10:00 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 8/29/2016 at 3:17 AM, WNS000 said:

 

  On 8/29/2016 at 2:29 AM, chenGOD said:

 

• Didn't you say that Muslims weren't allowed to have any variation in their religion?
• The Pew data shows some significant variation in Muslim attitudes and beliefs, including how they interpret religion.
• And for someone who loves being all analytical, your not very willing to look at the percentage of population Muslims make up in Europe, and that's assuming all the refugees end up staying, which I'd guess they probably won't.
• So if I ask one Muslim friend, or show you evidence of Muslims accepting things like LGBT rights, or women's rights, and the things you listed, what would your response be?

• Yes. Of course there can be exceptions but I am interested in the majority (average Sunnis) and their leaders. If there are "bad Muslims" being liberal then that's great and I hope they will become more prominent soon (not happening but one can dream). I have never said Muslims cannot change as people. You don't have to reform a religion if you don't give a fuck about religion in the first place. Agnosticism, pure spiritualism or atheism are perfectly valid alternatives to a stupid organized religion plague bullshit.
• The PEW data shows that majority of Muslims believes in and wants Sharia law. Overwhelming majority of Muslims believes homosexuality is immoral (which isn't a very nice in combination with Sharia law). Also:

    Quote

  In 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also favor stoning unfaithful spouses.

  That is quite a significant number if you ask me and it clearly shows that a huge number of their population has a long way to go.

• You should look at data about Muslim fertility and the policy of family reunification.

    Quote

  Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe. According to the Pew Research Center, the Muslim population in Europe (excluding Turkey) was about 30 million in 1990, 44 million in 2010 and is expected to increase to 58 million by 2030; the Muslim share of the population increased from 4.1% in 1990 to 6% in 2010 and will continue to increase over the next 40 years, reaching 10% in 2050. There were approximately 19 million Muslims in the European Union in 2010 or about (3.8%).

  But if you don't care about the future I get your point. Also, it is a wrong assumption that Muslim population must be at least 50% (or any other significant number) in Europe before problems occurs. How many Nazis were in Germany around the WW2?

    Quote

  Before Hitler seized power (in 1933) only 850,000 out of 66 million Germans were card-carrying Nazis. After the Nazi seizure of power, there was a big surge in membership. At its peak, Party membership reached 8 million out of 80 million Germans in 'Greater Germany' or about ten percent of the population.

  Which is an example of how easily can be masses manipulated and how fast can a movement gain support and power and also how an active, ideologically strong minority can completely dominate a passive, quiet majority. If the world population consisted only of secular, liberal, pacifist intellectuals I wouldn't probably care about immigration and multiculturalism at all. You also have to consider an average European citizens and their psychology, needs and fears. Intellectual talks are interesting and fun but does not really have a significant impact on majority of average people. It does not take that many people to start a long-lasting civil war (look at Ukraine) and begin the snowball effect. What I mean is that the risk are not only Muslims - the risk are also the Europeans running out of patience. Masses and their behaviour. The whole time my argument is based on my fear of instability and atrocities in Europe. I simply don't want anyone to suffer. No Europeans, no Muslims. See my post.

• My response would be "That is great! Hopefully they will soon be a vocal majority! But I shouldn't be dreaming that much!" You also should take into account what would they say in their Muslim communities were they asked the same questions...

So you start with a "no true scotsman" and then just descend into your own assumptions, climaxing with a Godwin, and then in post-coitus return to the "no true scotsman".

 

You say over and over again, that your views on this are evolving/changing - but it's always the same tired argument. We all get it - you're a scared man who doesn't think his culture can live up to the influx of less than 1% of the population (in Poland, where you are) to maybe 10%. And that assumes fertility rates stay the same, although Pew research on Muslims who live in the US indicates that while their fertility rates are slightly higher than the US general population, they are much below that of Muslims who live in less developed countries.

 

I mean it would be great if you and limpy were at least making a new argument - but this has been widely covered by one of the most renowned political scientists, only he wrote about it back in 1993. Here's the article, maybe you guys can come up with some actual decent arguments.

Why should I change my argument when it is still valid and hasn't been disputed yet by anybody? Until you show me data that supports your multicultural advocacy I am going to stick to my argument. I have data, I have logical arguments, I have psychological experience. You just keep repeating that Muslims doesn't have enough people to become a problem in EU, completely ignoring historical experience with powerful minorities dominating passive majorities. I don't even know where to start. That's how weak and non-existent your arguments are. Ask your Muslim friends, show me data disputing the PEW research, dispute the psychology of masses etc. Then we can talk. So far you have nothing (I will read the article but I would prefer it if it was in a more readable format, do you have a link?).

.

I've already told you what my Muslim friends and coworkers have said about the issues you brought up.

That you think Muslims are powerful minorities speaks volumes about the delusions you operate under, in no sense are Muslims powerful majorities.

The article is usually paywalled, but if you're really interested (and you should be, that article would provide you with much more credibility when making your argument) search and find it in your more readable format.

^ Where have you already told me what your Muslim friends and coworkers have said about the issues? I haven't noticed anything. I want per-issue comment by every one of them because that is what matters. I want you to actually ask them without fear of risking offending them.

I don't care about Muslims in America. I care about Europe now. Different numbers, different context.