EU

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:38 AM, LimpyLoo said:

Islam is not a monolith, it is a multiplicity of things. Some interpretations are morally barbaric, but not all of them are. I think you area of concern is overgeneralized, and you should zoom in on the specific aspect that is troublesome. It seems to me that many of more progressive strains of Islam don't reach the sort of threshold of your concerns.

 

In other words, I think "Islam" is an overly broad category for these purposes.

I have never said Islam is a monolith. What I said is that there is a huge number of Muslims (not the popular "only 1%" number untruth) who are dangerous for liberal, democratic society as PEW research clearly shows. I don't really see why is there dispute about it. The data shows that clearly.

  On 8/30/2016 at 7:22 AM, chenGOD said:

 

 1)  Fucks sake I mentioned they were lesbian to show that you know, not all Muslims are the same . 2) A nd you don't get to define what being Muslim means to them. I've talked to male heterosexual Muslim friends here as well who have no issues with homosexuality,  don't believe in multiple wives, don't treat their women like chattel etc etc. But now of course you will say "oh they will say something different when they are alone with other Muslims".

 

If anyone here is naive it's you. 3) You think that Islam is one coherent ideology, when it's very clear it's not. The PEW research poll you link to so frequently shows that, even within Muslim majority countries there are different interpretations, and among Muslim majority countries variation occurs as well. With Muslims who immigrate to Western countries, there is even more variation, and their children adopt more western values.

 

But that doesn't fit your preconceived notion of what a Muslim is, and doesn't fit your nonsensical quote on what multiculturalism is. 4) Since I live in a multicultural city, let me tell you that multiculturalism is indeed one of tolerance and acceptance, and not indifference.

 

No your mind is as open as a steel trap because contrary to your assertions that you are always changing your position on this topic, you haven't moved a single inch from your childish, 5) nationalist, prejudiced thought process. But the fault is mine for wasting time with you. No more though. I'll only have to take notice of you if you are reported. Enjoy your last comments, as I'm sure you'll make them.

 

1. I have never said that all Muslims are the same. Copied from above: "I have never said Islam is a monolith. What I said is that there is a huge number of Muslims (not the popular "only 1%" number untruth) who are dangerous for liberal, democratic society as PEW research clearly shows. I don't really see why is there dispute about it. The data shows that clearly."
2. Of course, why should I point out their schizoid irrational thinking, when their own religion clearly says they should be punished. I should turn a blind eye and consider them sane and intelligent and relevant in our debate even though they believe in a religion of bigotry that wants them dead or imprisoned. They clearly have no knowledge about Islam and what it really says (Quran is unchangeable and absolutely perfect word directly from God, unlike Bible for example. Remember.). Therefore they are not relevant for this debate about Muslims who take Islam more seriously than your lesbian friends. Now, don't get me wrong, I am glad your Muslim friends are so liberal (if I can trust you on that) but they are not relevant for this debate because they are not really those who shape Islam in today's world. They are not authorities and they would have extremely difficult time defending their stance on Islam in a serious debate. They are not in a position to change thinking of other Muslims, because they cannot really logically explain their position. They are in dissonance with their own religion and many Muslims would want them dead. And we can see on the Turkish example how a secular society can quickly turn religious again because it never really became secular in the first place. Religion is not logic. It is a strong, emotional drive than can manipulate masses and unless you are really methodological about your arguments why you believe or not believe in something you can be easily manipulated again.
3. See number 1.
4. OK, so if your neighbour is otherwise a perfectly peaceful Muslim but he sincerely believes that homosexuals and apostates should be killed, yet he isn't in a position to really do that would you define your stance towards him as "acceptance and tolerance"? Because that is precisely what happens in multicultural societies. People doing stuff that other cultures around them don't agree with yet they don't really care unless the disagreement is really becoming prominent and essential to them. That is not tolerance. You can not be tolerant to something you strongly disagree with and has impact on your life (the society you live in). It is the indifference the same way that I don't care about noisy neighbours on the other end of the town I live in.
5. I am not a nationalist. If I was I would have problems living with Germans, Vietnamese, Cubans, Czechs, Slovaks, Ukrainians. I don't. But I understand you really really want to put that racist/nationalist label on me. Tough luck because Muslims are a special case. And in contrast to you I don't consider my time in discussion with you to be a waste of time. I think it is a pretty informative look into a mentality of a multiculturalist.

Extra point: If you live in Canada, you are living in a country with extremely selective and discriminatory immigration policy. No surprise you have so few experiences with average Muslims that are so prominent in Europe.

  On 8/30/2016 at 9:23 AM, keanu reeves said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 4:52 AM, WNS000 said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 4:42 AM, keanu reeves said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 3:52 AM, WNS000 said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 3:07 AM, darreichungsform said:

Why do you keep comparing Islam (a religion with manifold natures) with Nazi ideology, WNS000?

 

1) Islam is a political system.

2) Islam is against liberalism and western human rights.

3) Islam believes in supremacy of its people.

4) My example of Nazis was mainly to show how a relatively small active minority can completely dominate a passive majority (which was my argument against so popular "the percentage of Muslims is too small against the rest of the European population").

 

that isn't how the nazis worked. there is literally no comparison to be made. 

 

 

You will have to explain that in more detail in order to make an argument. What is not how the Nazis worked?

 

 

do you think by making a small numbered list of blanket statements you're somehow making an argument? 

1. islam isn't a political system, it's a religion.

2. i personally know a lot of muslims who are extremely progressive. so, wrong.

3. it's a belief system that guides people through life, like any religion. it isn't about superiority. 

4. comparing "islam" to "nazis" is ridiculous and arbitrary. you're comparing a political party that emerged out of a number of factors post ww1, gained traction among the working class and middle class, and by 1930 was the second largest political party in germany, with a religion. it's obvious why that doesn't hold water.

it's also pretty rich that you're going the "islam is nazis" route considering how well your xenophobic bullshit would fit in with that ideology

 

1) Wrong. http://www.islam101.com/politics/politicalsystem.htm and all main religions in history were used for political goals.

2) They are in dissonance with their own religion. More power to them but they should really convert to something else tbh.

3) Old Testament and Quran clearly state that their believers are superior to others and infidels should die. They have been chosen by their gods. Oh and organized religion in general can suck my dick btw (so that we are clear on that).

4) Muslims were very supportive towards Nazi Germany btw and both systems strive for world dominance, superiority and homogeneous society. But my main point was to give an example how a strong, active minority can completely dominate a passive majority. I have stated this numerous times now in this thread. Please, pay attention.

  On 8/30/2016 at 9:30 AM, azatoth said:

Funny how Jev is all in a huff about those swarthy musselmen with no regards for Western values when he lives in a country where the right-wing ruling party and president have done constitutional amendments that increases controls over media, justice system and the constitutional tribunal. That sure shows how Poland is a beacon of democracy and Western values.

Yes I live in a country where majority of my fellow citizens voted for the parties that are now in power in Poland. What should I do about it? Coordinate a coup? As I stated many times now, I consider myself a democrat and a sober liberal.

  On 8/30/2016 at 9:37 AM, usagi said:

I'd just like remind people at this juncture that social retardation/autism is the foremost cause of a lot of these sorts of worldviews developing, especially on the Innernette. once you cut past all the geopolitical/social/cultural analysis, it all boils down to one thing: you're just not getting out enough, having enough new experiences and meeting enough mixed groups of people to have a grounded, balanced worldview.

My experience with average Muslims were so far negative or problematic. What should I do about it?

  On 8/30/2016 at 11:19 AM, phling said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 9:30 AM, azatoth said:

Funny how Jev is all in a huff about those swarthy musselmen with no regards for Western values when he lives in a country where the right-wing ruling party and president have done constitutional amendments that increases controls over media, justice system and the constitutional tribunal. That sure shows how Poland is a beacon of democracy and Western values.

yeah basically he's got to be either a supporter of the PISS party (neonazi conservative scum) or a conformist (a wee little coward). which is it? Probably has been listening to Radio Maryja a bit too much.

 

Your clairvoyant skills are amazing. I compare Islam to Nazism but I am a neonazi. Interesting. I am a neonazi supporting democracy, sane liberalism, freedom of movement, LGBT, having good friends from Russia, Ukraine, Slovakia or Czech republic, having interest in support and taking care of mentally ill people, loving "perverted art", being sick of holocaust, having my ancestors being enslaved by Hitler.

(This reminds me of Rush being accused of supporting Nazism even though Geddy Lee's parents were Auschwitz survivors.)

You are very capable of making an idiot of yourself. Congrats and keep it up!

rekt

  On 8/30/2016 at 1:57 AM, WNS000 said:

I for one had these detailed, controversial debates with Muslims and they revealed quite a lot about their mentality. You can never get such info in your regular friendly chat. Simple as that.

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:41 PM, WNS000 said:

My experience with average Muslims were so far negative or problematic. What should I do about it?

^ Yes. Their opinions were the reason I would call the experience with them to be negative or problematic (although polite). Or should I say "friendly and beautiful" when I talk to a brainwashed religious slave saying "Quran is perfect and I believe in Sharia" or "how do you know what is good or wrong if you don't believe in god?" with smile on his face as if nothing happened? Do you know those typical horror movies where an innocent looking little girl kills everybody with a disconnected expression on her face? A similar experience but in reality.

it's like there's some huge, mental wall somewhere in the east of germany to the east of which the conceptions of tolerance and humanism and the even more grassroots ideas of human variance and malleability are inconceivable. i mean you can compute ideas and theorize about abstract concepts of liberalism and compare them to other concepts of non liberalism of islam and bla bla bla in a nauseating fashion ad infinum, but you have no capacity to even imagine how actual people behave and change over time in  different contexts. it's as if there's some noxious cloud of balkan onion farts and ethnic ultranationalism that's constantly spreading north and north-east that preclude an awful many eastern europeans from actually really getting those aforementioned concepts. add to that the STEM popularity in those countries, fields that excel in producing emotional/socially stunted autistic people with their childish ideas of rationalism and logic, and you get hordes of jeff-likes roaming the internet rationally and logically™ defending western civilization from musclemen invasion.

(in b4 deletes and the like, israel is very much eastern european like that as well)

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:41 PM, WNS000 said:

 

Quran is unchangeable and absolutely perfect word directly from God, unlike Bible for example. Remember.

 

Remember: Christians who are really serious about their faith don't think Bible should interpeted either, they think it's "unchangeable and absolutely perfect word directly from God", too. And there are Muslims who believe Quran shouldn't be taken literal, no matter what ultra-conservative imams say. I think it's a matter of education. In poor Christian countries they rely more on religion and therefore fundamentalism is more commmon, same with Islamic countries but there are more poor Islamic countries and therefore more Islamic fundamentalists than Christian fundamentalists. If they had access to proper education they wouldn't have so many of them. With education and a liberal environment (which they would have access to in Europe) there is little chance they will be ultra-religious and dangerous, I believe. It's more about rich and poor and education than about religion

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:41 PM, WNS000 said:

 

I have never said that all Muslims are the same.

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:41 PM, WNS000 said:

 

Tough luck because Muslims are a special case. 

  On 8/30/2016 at 6:29 PM, eugene said:

it's like there's some huge, mental wall somewhere in the east of germany to the east of which the conceptions of tolerance and humanism and the even more grassroots ideas of human variance and malleability are inconceivable. i mean you can compute ideas and theorize about abstract concepts of liberalism and compare them to other concepts of non liberalism of islam and bla bla bla in a nauseating fashion ad infinum, but you have no capacity to even imagine how actual people behave and change over time in different contexts. it's as if there's some noxious cloud of balkan onion farts and ethnic ultranationalism that's constantly spreading north and north-east that preclude an awful many eastern europeans from actually really getting those aforementioned concepts. add to that the STEM popularity in those countries, fields that excel in producing emotional/socially stunted autistic people with their childish ideas of rationalism and logic, and you get hordes of jeff-likes roaming the internet rationally and logically defending western civilization from musclemen invasion.

 

 

(in b4 deletes and the like, israel is very much eastern european like that as well)

Is delet still around? Did he change his SN or sumpin?

  On 8/30/2016 at 7:32 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 6:29 PM, eugene said:

it's like there's some huge, mental wall somewhere in the east of germany to the east of which the conceptions of tolerance and humanism and the even more grassroots ideas of human variance and malleability are inconceivable. i mean you can compute ideas and theorize about abstract concepts of liberalism and compare them to other concepts of non liberalism of islam and bla bla bla in a nauseating fashion ad infinum, but you have no capacity to even imagine how actual people behave and change over time in different contexts. it's as if there's some noxious cloud of balkan onion farts and ethnic ultranationalism that's constantly spreading north and north-east that preclude an awful many eastern europeans from actually really getting those aforementioned concepts. add to that the STEM popularity in those countries, fields that excel in producing emotional/socially stunted autistic people with their childish ideas of rationalism and logic, and you get hordes of jeff-likes roaming the internet rationally and logically defending western civilization from musclemen invasion.

 

 

(in b4 deletes and the like, israel is very much eastern european like that as well)

 

Is delet still around? Did he change his SN or sumpin?

 

Please take a look at the now playing thread.

  On 8/30/2016 at 6:29 PM, eugene said:

it's like there's some huge, mental wall somewhere in the east of germany to the east of which the conceptions of tolerance and humanism and the even more grassroots ideas of human variance and malleability are inconceivable. i mean you can compute ideas and theorize about abstract concepts of liberalism and compare them to other concepts of non liberalism of islam and bla bla bla in a nauseating fashion ad infinum, but you have no capacity to even imagine how actual people behave and change over time in  different contexts. it's as if there's some noxious cloud of balkan onion farts and ethnic ultranationalism that's constantly spreading north and north-east that preclude an awful many eastern europeans from actually really getting those aforementioned concepts. add to that the STEM popularity in those countries, fields that excel in producing emotional/socially stunted autistic people with their childish ideas of rationalism and logic, and you get hordes of jeff-likes roaming the internet rationally and logically™ defending western civilization from musclemen invasion.

 

 

(in b4 deletes and the like, israel is very much eastern european like that as well)

OK.

One of the countries in the middle Europe that is getting most shit for not wanting to accept Muslim migrants and refugees is the Czech republic.

The Czech republic is 6th most peaceful and safest country in the world (Switzerland 7th, Canada 8th, Sweden 14th, Germany 16th, France 46th, Great Britain 47th, USA 103th, Israel 144th) and is culturally very homogeneous.

86% of population don't believe in a god or don't accept any organized religion. Only 0.1% are Muslims. Most of the Muslims are from Bosnia-Herzegovina (early 1990s) and former countries of Soviet Union (mostly from Caucasus region).

The Czech republic has no colonial history, zero imperialistic ambitions and basically they were only defending themselves most of their history. They have a rich, hundreds of years lasting experience with influence, oppression and betrayal by more powerful countries which tried to conquer it by different means:

• Forceful attempt of Germanization by Germans.
• Forceful attempt of recatolization by Germans.
• Conquering of Czech lands by Austrians and living under their rule for tens of years.
• Betrayal of Czechoslovakia (the Munich agreement) by France, Great Britain, Italy and Germany before WW2 and following seizure of Sudetenland (a Czech territory) by Germans and related betrayal by Czech Germans living in Sudetenland declaring loyalty to Germany and killing Czech citizens in Sudetenland (a nice, hundreds of years lasting example of multiculturalism and its results when a leader comes and your culturally different neighbours get home call btw - Turks in Germany anyone?).
• Forceful attempt by Poland to conquer Czech parts of Těšínsko (a Czech territory) right after the Munich agreement, taking an advantage of already weakened Czechoslovakia
• After WW2, 41 years of life in communism under brutal influence of CCCP and occupation of Czechoslovakia by CCCP in 1968 after Czech liberalization attempts, which was a huge disappointment for most Czechoslovakia people and even those who sincerely believed in communism before 1968.
• Currently under pressure from EU (mainly Germany) trying to force immigrants (invited by Merkel) to the rest of Europe.

Could it be that Czechs (and Slovaks after split) have so rich historical experience that they know very well why not to trust foreign countries, cultures and religious ideas? Reasons to distrust "authorities", philosophical ideals and rather prefer pragmatic and sober ways of thinking? Could it be that Czechs had such a big experience with how people really behave in certain critical situations (numerous occupations and ideology movements) that they have lost a lot of their naivety and have rather strong historical reasons to be naturally suspicious of others' intentions?

So in the context of the Czech example I have just written your quote "...mental wall somewhere in the east of germany to the east of which the conceptions of tolerance and humanism and the even more grassroots ideas of human variance and malleability are inconceivable" is brutally disrespectful and ignorant. Big part of the Czech experience can be applied to the rest of countries in the middle and eastern Europe too. All have nice places in the Global peace index even though they are economically way behind western countries. Cultural homogeneity and historical experience is what makes them so safe and peaceful IMO.

And even though I don't really know why you talk about Balkan in the context of middle and eastern Europe I will say that precisely the Balkan states have very good reasons to be extremely suspicious when it comes to multiculturalism and incompatible religions living together. The Balkan conflict was preceded by hundrends and hundreds of years of religious and cultural tensions and clashes.

  On 8/30/2016 at 6:20 PM, Herr Jan said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 1:57 AM, WNS000 said:

I for one had these detailed, controversial debates with Muslims and they revealed quite a lot about their mentality. You can never get such info in your regular friendly chat. Simple as that.

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:41 PM, WNS000 said:

My experience with average Muslims were so far negative or problematic. What should I do about it?

 

Jev's experiences having "controversial debates"  with "average Muslims" were negative or problematic. What a surprise! Just like at WATMM, eh? Perhaps it's not about those Muslims after all?

* google image search "condescending wonka"*

  On 8/30/2016 at 8:34 PM, goDel said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 6:20 PM, Herr Jan said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 1:57 AM, WNS000 said:

I for one had these detailed, controversial debates with Muslims and they revealed quite a lot about their mentality. You can never get such info in your regular friendly chat. Simple as that.

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:41 PM, WNS000 said:

My experience with average Muslims were so far negative or problematic. What should I do about it?

 

 

Jev's experiences having "controversial debates"  with "average Muslims" were negative or problematic. What a surprise! Just like at WATMM, eh? Perhaps it's not about those Muslims after all?

 

* google image search "condescending wonka"*

 

Another desperate move. I have already explained that all debates were very polite and never turned into an argument. As I have written:

  Quote

 

Yes. Their opinions were the reason I would call the experience with them to be negative or problematic (although polite). Or should I say "friendly and beautiful" when I talk to a brainwashed religious slave saying "Quran is perfect and I believe in Sharia" or "how do you know what is good or wrong if you don't believe in god?" with smile on his face as if nothing happened? Do you know those typical horror movies where an innocent looking little girl kills everybody with a disconnected expression on her face? A similar experience but in reality.

You should read all my posts because I care about context. Great job at making hasty comments and making an idiot of yourself.

  On 8/30/2016 at 7:19 PM, keanu reeves said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:41 PM, WNS000 said:

 

I have never said that all Muslims are the same.

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:41 PM, WNS000 said:

 

Tough luck because Muslims are a special case. 

 

 

 

Yes this percentage of Muslims are a special case:

http://admin.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2015-12/195710_5_.jpg

Any other cheap attempt you got there? I love how desperate you are. Like an American presidential candidate trying to discredit his opponents. Keep it up.

why does he not get the things?

  On 8/30/2016 at 8:41 PM, WNS000 said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 8:34 PM, goDel said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 6:20 PM, Herr Jan said:

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 1:57 AM, WNS000 said:

I for one had these detailed, controversial debates with Muslims and they revealed quite a lot about their mentality. You can never get such info in your regular friendly chat. Simple as that.

 

  On 8/30/2016 at 5:41 PM, WNS000 said:

My experience with average Muslims were so far negative or problematic. What should I do about it?

 

 

Jev's experiences having "controversial debates"  with "average Muslims" were negative or problematic. What a surprise! Just like at WATMM, eh? Perhaps it's not about those Muslims after all?

 

* google image search "condescending wonka"*

 

 

Another desperate move. I have already explained that all debates were very polite and never turned into an argument. As I have written:

 

  Quote

 

Yes. Their opinions were the reason I would call the experience with them to be negative or problematic (although polite). Or should I say "friendly and beautiful" when I talk to a brainwashed religious slave saying "Quran is perfect and I believe in Sharia" or "how do you know what is good or wrong if you don't believe in god?" with smile on his face as if nothing happened? Do you know those typical horror movies where an innocent looking little girl kills everybody with a disconnected expression on her face? A similar experience but in reality.

 

You should read all my posts because I care about context. Great job at making hasty comments and making an idiot of yourself.

 

I just feel for the Muslims having to be in one of those "detailed and controversial debates". I really sympathise with them actually. Yes, horror movies could be made about those experiences. But I guess the context is they were able to smile regardless. So, maybe they didn't take it very seriously after all. Bless them.

  On 8/30/2016 at 8:56 PM, goDel said:

 

I just feel for the Muslims having to be in one of those "detailed and controversial debates". I really sympathise with them actually. Yes, horror movies could be made about those experiences. But I guess the context is they were able to smile regardless. So, maybe they didn't take it very seriously after all. Bless them.

 

They were normal, constructive debates. They were controversial because I wasn't afraid to ask them about controversial stuff about their religion but nobody was offending anyone (that usually happens only on internet). We have spent several hours discussing it (partly because of our language barriers too). The Muslims were college educated.

Please, do continue your attempts to discredit my real-life experiences. I love it.

You're welcome.

rewind, musclemen can kill you with just a stare?

hardfuckincore maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

if i had those powers the bodies & cars of middle lane motorway hoggers would be littered all across these fair lands of Christendom

what if i convert?

do i get the powers straight away or are there Jedi like initiation processes, more specifically what do i do with all my latent lapsed catholic guilt then?

fuck, everyone's @ it,

are these IS sleeper cells?

Inshallah?

This horrible thing happened the other day:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/harlow-five-teenagers-arrested-after-polish-man-beaten-to-death-in-hate-crime-a3332286.html

Was hoping that post-brexit bump in xenophobic sentiment would have died down by now.

the only thing in this thread more stupid than jev is people actually debating him. 

  On 8/30/2016 at 10:20 PM, caze said:

This horrible thing happened the other day:

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/harlow-five-teenagers-arrested-after-polish-man-beaten-to-death-in-hate-crime-a3332286.html

 

Was hoping that post-brexit bump in xenophobic sentiment would have died down by now.

This was quite surprising to be honest. Crazy. Would not expect that from UK before.

  On 8/30/2016 at 10:55 PM, messiaen said:

the only thing in this thread more stupid than jev is people actually debating him. 

Have you actually read all my points or just saw I am involved in an argument and commented on that?

  On 8/30/2016 at 10:55 PM, messiaen said:

the only thing in this thread more stupid than jev is people actually debating him.

 

You know you have won a debate when your opponents start to talk complete bullshit instead of answering your arguments point by point. Thanks guys!