Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

just looked it up, this happened a year ago. 

This kind of knee-jerk posting of stuff, and then the blasé attitude when someone calls them out on it, is one of the more frustrating things.

  On 2/1/2017 at 8:35 PM, LimpyLoo said:

Did we "own up to" Obama's drone program, NSA, secret wars, executive orders, etc?

Or did we say "yeah but he's a liberal, so..."

Nobody said he was perfect, but if anything it's obvious why we need the NSA now more than ever. Things like that are good for catching Flynn accept 19.5% of the stake in Rosneft...

He also actually gave a shit about his job. We could make false equivalencies all day and it still doesn't make voting for Trump a good idea, does it?

  On 2/1/2017 at 9:24 PM, Candiru said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 8:35 PM, LimpyLoo said:

Did we "own up to" Obama's drone program, NSA, secret wars, executive orders, etc?

Or did we say "yeah but he's a liberal, so..."

Nobody said he was perfect, but if anything it's obvious why we need the NSA now more than ever. Things like that are good for catching Flynn accept 19.5% of the stake in Rosneft...

 

He also actually gave a shit about his job. We could make false equivalencies all day and it still doesn't make voting for Trump a good idea, does it?

So it kinda sounds like you're excusing violating the Constitution so long as it it serves liberal ends...

"False equivalences"?

Obama was polite, dignified and intelligent

But a body count is a body count

Don't remember a single lefty calling for his impeachment

Despite his many atrocities and human rights violations...

Did I say voting Trump was a good idea?

Did I even *hint* at it?

Please don't put words in my mouth

It's not the "liberal ends", that were the reasons for doing so. It's western democracy in general, which has never been more clear than it is now.

  On 2/1/2017 at 8:35 PM, LimpyLoo said:

Did we "own up to" Obama's drone program, NSA, secret wars, executive orders, etc?

Or did we say "yeah but he's a liberal, so..."

I mean there are loads of articles in the lefty press criticizing him for exactly those things. If anything, I think the liberal narrative was closer to 'he failed us' by living up (or down?) to the Nixon comparisons that come out of his own mouth. Then Trump appeared over yonder hill...

Big ups to these two GOP senators. Sadly, Pence gets the final say. Thought there was a chance to avoid this hag.

  Quote

 

Senators Susan Collins of Maine and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska said on the floor of the Senate that they would vote against Ms. DeVos.

 

“I will not, I cannot vote to confirm her as our nation’s next secretary of education,” Ms. Collins said.

 

Both senators, who voted to advance her selection out of committee, said they had serious reservations about her lack of familiarity with public schools. “I think that Mrs. DeVos has much to learn about our nation’s public schools,” Ms. Murkowski said.

 

Senator Al Franken, Democrat of Minnesota, has said he believes every Democrat will vote against Ms. DeVos. If that is the case, the defections by Ms. Collins and Ms. Murkowski would bring the number of votes against her to 50, setting up a tie in the Senate that Vice President Mike Pence, in his capacity as president of the Senate, might need to come in to settle.

ooh, close. hopefully another one grows a conscience.

why did those two vote her out of the committee though? that was only 12-11 in her favour.

  On 2/1/2017 at 10:06 PM, caze said:

ooh, close. hopefully another one grows a conscience.

why did those two vote her out of the committee though? that was only 12-11 in her favour.

Not sure. Some phone calls were made to support their bills or something...in return, vote that bitch down.

  On 2/1/2017 at 9:05 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 6:43 PM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 6:03 PM, QBLA said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 5:06 PM, LimpyLoo said:

Maybe calling the right a bunch of idiots isn't actually a good strategy

Maybe we should treat them like actual human beings

And try to actually understand their thoughts and decisions

Instead of writing them off as irredeemable sub-human scum

 

 

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the "ur dumb lol" strategy is working

One guy who is much older and about to retire likes Trumps ideas but doesn't like the way they are presented.

I've said this to people I know before. It's a matter of tact. Sometimes it's not what you're saying or doing so much as how you're saying or doing it.

 

Trump has the tact of an angry 10 year old who has just been told he's not getting ice cream or something.

His temperament and apologists for it baffle me the most. I know people who readily excuse or even like his faults yet spent 8 years cynically scoffing and critiquing Obama on every little thing. It really makes you wonder if racist and sexist undertones are behind such attitudes.

Trump is a fragile narcissist

Whom this world has repeatedly rewarded

To the tune of millions of dollars and a U.S. Presidency

(So why the fuck would he act any different?!?)

The problem isn't Donald Trump

The problem is that the world rewards people like Donald Trump

His apologists are happy to overlook his flaws

So long as they're protected from the things they want to be protected from

We've set up a political climate such that

Conceding flaws on *our* side

necessarily means giving ammunition to *their* side

So yes, people are slow to concede points

When they think their life/livelihood is at stake

On a lighter note http://trumpdonald.org/

*drags on vape*

I'm proud of Murkowski for making the decision to vote no on DeVos's confirmation. But the fact that from the GOP side it's only her and ONE other senator...isn't reassuring.

Wow murkowski did something good for once

  On 2/1/2017 at 10:48 PM, Salvatorin said:

*drags on vape*

*extends leprosy-covered hand*

Already over 473.5 M Trumps!

  On 2/1/2017 at 9:50 PM, Candiru said:

It's not the "liberal ends", that were the reasons for doing so. It's western democracy in general, which has never been more clear than it is now.

What part of 'western democracy' does mass surveillance of a population serve?

Or a drone program where the chances you killed the right person are like 50%? ("one of those 10 people I just droned was a suspected terrorist")

But Obama's a liberal, so it's all for western democracy.

(When others do it, though, it's because they're evil and stupid)

  On 2/1/2017 at 8:06 PM, psn said:

No, just an endless brain fart.

 

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/826822342961745922

He's either a better actor than Raygun, or he's already got full blown dementia.

Tremendous. Freddy Doug.

  On 2/1/2017 at 8:35 PM, LimpyLoo said:

Did we "own up to" Obama's drone program, NSA, secret wars, executive orders, etc?

Or did we say "yeah but he's a liberal, so..."

Robbie and his sister, Glenn Greenwald, Noam Chomsky etc etc.

What was your response to them?

  On 2/2/2017 at 2:25 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 8:35 PM, LimpyLoo said:

Did we "own up to" Obama's drone program, NSA, secret wars, executive orders, etc?

Or did we say "yeah but he's a liberal, so..."

Robbie and his sister, Glenn Greenwald, Noam Chomsky etc etc.

What was your response to them?

What is my response or what was my response?

I think they were right about Obama

(And to the extent I disagreed, I was wrong)

But I can't even remember all the shitty things I thought a few years ago

I was a clinically-depressed heroin addict

And my political thinking was way more 'survive' than 'thrive'

So I was like

"yo government, protect me from scary shit at any cost

In fact, make the mesh of the net as fine as possible

Because hey false positives are safer than false negatives"

Hawaii rep Fukumoto seems to be an example of an honest Republican.

  On 2/2/2017 at 3:36 AM, usagi said:

Hawaii rep Fukumoto seems to be an example of an honest Republican.

TIL I learned she's the youngest person to serve as House Minority Leader.

She's about to leave the party though. There seem to be fewer and fewer honest and/or steadfast Republicans - the moderates, the 'mavericks,' the local and independent minded. They have been targeted to be ousted by the GOP in primaries just as much as Dems are through redistricting. The Tea Party movement really did a number on the party in that sense. It's that way in Texas anyway - the few decent Republicans I've noticed tend to be moderate Hispanics or just really popular longtime legislators who have managed to not leave out of frustration.

  On 2/2/2017 at 3:56 AM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 3:36 AM, usagi said:

Hawaii rep Fukumoto seems to be an example of an honest Republican.

 

TIL I learned she's the youngest person to serve as House Minority Leader.

 

She's about to leave the party though. There seem to be fewer and fewer honest and/or steadfast Republicans - the moderates, the 'mavericks,' the local and independent minded. They have been targeted to be ousted by the GOP in primaries just as much as Dems are through redistricting. The Tea Party movement really did a number on the party in that sense. It's that way in Texas anyway - the few decent Republicans I've noticed tend to be moderate Hispanics or just really popular longtime legislators who have managed to not leave out of frustration.

 

yes, that's why she's in the media atm and why I know who she is. she is throwing her party switch out there in the public sphere for comment and feedback, and I admire the transparency and consultation.

  On 2/1/2017 at 10:09 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 9:05 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 6:43 PM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 6:03 PM, QBLA said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 5:06 PM, LimpyLoo said:

Maybe calling the right a bunch of idiots isn't actually a good strategy

Maybe we should treat them like actual human beings

And try to actually understand their thoughts and decisions

Instead of writing them off as irredeemable sub-human scum

 

 

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the "ur dumb lol" strategy is working

One guy who is much older and about to retire likes Trumps ideas but doesn't like the way they are presented.

I've said this to people I know before. It's a matter of tact. Sometimes it's not what you're saying or doing so much as how you're saying or doing it.

 

Trump has the tact of an angry 10 year old who has just been told he's not getting ice cream or something.

His temperament and apologists for it baffle me the most. I know people who readily excuse or even like his faults yet spent 8 years cynically scoffing and critiquing Obama on every little thing. It really makes you wonder if racist and sexist undertones are behind such attitudes.

I don't think it's all that baffling

Trump is a fragile narcissist

Whom this world has repeatedly rewarded

To the tune of millions of dollars and a U.S. Presidency

(So why the fuck would he act any different?!?)

The problem isn't Donald Trump

The problem is that the world rewards people like Donald Trump

 

 

His apologists are happy to overlook his flaws

So long as they're protected from the things they want to be protected from

 

We've set up a political climate such that

Conceding flaws on *our* side

necessarily means giving ammunition to *their* side

So yes, people are slow to concede points

When they think their life/livelihood is at stake

 

Here's the thing though (and I seriously hope someone's going to convince me I'm wrong): I don't think conceding flaws and acting in good faith will help anymore, because it assumes that the other side will not see goodwill as a weakness. I think what Trump and his people have done (click here for a chilling read) is systematically and nihilistically pushing people's buttons to scare them and make them afraid in order for them not to be thinking straight and relying on quick instinctive emotional reflexes. What's going on now is the application of cutting edge behavioral psychology applied to not only selling you the latest iPhone but to get you terrified enough to *not* think calmly and rationally but to trigger survival instincts. The load of online data people voluntarily and unknowingly leave lying around makes this just seriously effective.

So, the first rational step here would be for everybody to calm the fuck down, but I don't really see that happening with the Trump administration so far, because they seem to be obsessed with doing as many radical changes as fast as they can, which keeps everyone emotionally charged and not thinking. And that Bannon guy has outright said he wants to burn the establishment.. I don't believe that this bunch is going to play by this rulebook of conceding flaws and acting in good faith. The best way I see out of this is nonviolent protests 10-20x the size of the women's march.

I'm not american, but the way things are going, it seems I might end up digging trenches somewhere in a couple of years. It seems that while the world is looking at the US, fighting in Ukraine has already gotten more intensive. You probably know the saying that for evil to triumph, the good men only need to do nothing. I hope there are good men in the US and I hope you get your administration under control soon.

@thawkins

1) So in short:

we should (as we always do) forgo long-term solutions for short-term solutions?

And then in 4-8 years scramble for some new short-term solutions?

And then...

Maybe one day we can entertain some more broad-scale 'macro' ideas

But since our current problems are immediate 'micro' problems

We need immediate 'micro' solutions...

2)

  Quote

what's going on now is the application of cutting edge behavioral psychology

applied to not...

(IPhones are--by design--inherently useful to humans; we don't buy them merely because we're sheeple)

And you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into acting to protect their body

(which is what fascism boils down to: remove all the things in the environment that might damage my body, regardless the cost to others)

3) re: conceding flaws and good faith

I must be overly optimistic about humanity

Because my thinking is that sincerity and good faith are good strategies regardless of what your opponent thinks of them

If you think Trump's "concede no weakness whatsoever" is a better strategy

Then well yes I disagree with you

Ever seen that strange-ass film "Bullworth"?

Well, how do you beat/undermine a politician who is literally upfront about everything?

Who isn't hiding skeletons and insecurities and vulnerabilities?

Who volunteers the unsavory aspects of his past (that most politicians would scramble to hide)?

Well, to me that looks exactly like a stable long-term strategy/solution

Instead of this "hey, we should out-Machiavelli Machiavelli" game that people really like to play when the stakes are high-ish

But again, we can have this conversation again in 4-8 years or whenever

And we can decide on these same short-term solutions then too

(And who knows: maybe this time they'll work...)