Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

@thawkins

1) So in short:

we should (as we always do) forgo long-term solutions for short-term solutions?

And then in 4-8 years scramble for some new short-term solutions?

And then...

 

Maybe one day we can entertain some more broad-scale 'macro' ideas

But since our current problems are immediate 'micro' problems

We need immediate 'micro' solutions...

Sorry if I sound like I am telling you how to solve your problems. I am not. I'm not american, I don't know

what's the best solution. I am just worried about all this shit, and I hope it doesn't end too violently.

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

2) I mean, you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into buying iPhones

(IPhones are--by design--inherently useful to humans; we don't buy them merely because we're sheeple)

And you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into acting to protect their body

(which is what fascism boils down to: remove all the things in the environment that might damage my body, regardless the cost to others)

Ok, ignore the iPhone, my point is that advertising works because of behavioral psychology. Now the same methods are

increasingly being used to mold people's thinking and turn off the rational mind. There's horrible stuff in that article I linked.

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

3) re: conceding flaws and good faith

 

I must be overly optimistic about humanity

Because my thinking is that sincerity and good faith are good strategies regardless of what your opponent thinks of them

If you think Trump's "concede no weakness whatsoever" is a better strategy

Then well yes I disagree with you

Ever seen that strange-ass film "Bullworth"?

Well, how do you beat/undermine a politician who is literally upfront about everything?

Who isn't hiding skeletons and insecurities and vulnerabilities?

Who volunteers the unsavory aspects of his past (that most politicians would scramble to hide)?

 

Well, to me that looks exactly like a stable long-term strategy/solution

Instead of this "hey, we should out-Machiavelli Machiavelli" game that people really like to play when the stakes are high-ish

 

But again, we can have this conversation again in 4-8 years or whenever

And we can decide on these same short-term solutions then too

(And who knows: maybe this time they'll work...)

My optimism in humanity took a big hit with Trump getting elected. I agree that sincerity and good faith are good strategies,

but I also feel that what has been going on has has emotionally charged people on both sides up to a level where tribalistic base instincts are taking over. And

those instincts do not produce rational responses with regard to modern society, but rather have evolved to preserve

the individual and their closer community (family, tribe, etc.).

I'm not saying Trump's strategy is better, I am just saying that currently, it's winning. And it's winning because he's switched off sincerity

and good faith in a lot of people by making them believe they're under attack, be it by muslim terrorists or the liberal left. On a micro/personal level you can

indeed change this by engaging with people and being nice, but you're up against an advanced hate propaganda machine.

Basically, what I am saying is that if you have a bunch of people like Spencer and Bannon who have more or less openly and for a long time said that they wish to burn down the existing social order, then by definition they have decided not to play by any rules of "goodwill" and "rational discourse".

I think that ship has now sailed. I would put more faith in the words "nonviolent" and "resistance".

I think it was someone here on WATMM who said it's a waste of energy to try and convert diehard nazis, because they're so deep lost in their make-believe world of hate that they would rather die than admit their error. The humanist in me says that there's always hope, but the realist in me thinks something should be done before we get to concentration camp stage.

Edit: sorry I don't actually want to talk politics so much it's just that this stuff has me really concerned.

  On 2/2/2017 at 7:39 AM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

 

one thing that would be helpful would be to avoid constantly talking about "sides", the "left" and the "right"

 

it's really annoying when people swoop a whole bunch of different ideologies and viewpoints and classify this entire spectrum as a cohesive block that exists on a 2d plane of thoughts and ideas. i honestly have very little patience for people that think this way. i understand the need for this expression in some circumstances but people that always revert to this way of thinking are the ones that frustrate me. [/quote

 

Yeah humans arent always black and white. We're a complicated species. But society loves to put ourselves into little boxes in order to label and explain away.

  On 2/2/2017 at 8:56 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 6:49 AM, thawkins said:

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

@thawkins

1) So in short:

we should (as we always do) forgo long-term solutions for short-term solutions?

And then in 4-8 years scramble for some new short-term solutions?

And then...

 

Maybe one day we can entertain some more broad-scale 'macro' ideas

But since our current problems are immediate 'micro' problems

We need immediate 'micro' solutions...

Sorry if I sound like I am telling you how to solve your problems. I am not. I'm not american, I don't know

what's the best solution. I am just worried about all this shit, and I hope it doesn't end too violently.

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

2) I mean, you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into buying iPhones

(IPhones are--by design--inherently useful to humans; we don't buy them merely because we're sheeple)

And you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into acting to protect their body

(which is what fascism boils down to: remove all the things in the environment that might damage my body, regardless the cost to others)

Ok, ignore the iPhone, my point is that advertising works because of behavioral psychology. Now the same methods are

increasingly being used to mold people's thinking and turn off the rational mind. There's horrible stuff in that article I linked.

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

3) re: conceding flaws and good faith

 

I must be overly optimistic about humanity

Because my thinking is that sincerity and good faith are good strategies regardless of what your opponent thinks of them

If you think Trump's "concede no weakness whatsoever" is a better strategy

Then well yes I disagree with you

Ever seen that strange-ass film "Bullworth"?

Well, how do you beat/undermine a politician who is literally upfront about everything?

Who isn't hiding skeletons and insecurities and vulnerabilities?

Who volunteers the unsavory aspects of his past (that most politicians would scramble to hide)?

 

Well, to me that looks exactly like a stable long-term strategy/solution

Instead of this "hey, we should out-Machiavelli Machiavelli" game that people really like to play when the stakes are high-ish

 

But again, we can have this conversation again in 4-8 years or whenever

And we can decide on these same short-term solutions then too

(And who knows: maybe this time they'll work...)

My optimism in humanity took a big hit with Trump getting elected. I agree that sincerity and good faith are good strategies,

but I also feel that what has been going on has has emotionally charged people on both sides up to a level where tribalistic base instincts are taking over. And

those instincts do not produce rational responses with regard to modern society, but rather have evolved to preserve

the individual and their closer community (family, tribe, etc.).

 

I'm not saying Trump's strategy is better, I am just saying that currently, it's winning. And it's winning because he's switched off sincerity

and good faith in a lot of people by making them believe they're under attack, be it by muslim terrorists or the liberal left. On a micro/personal level you can

indeed change this by engaging with people and being nice, but you're up against an advanced hate propaganda machine.

1) The 'rational mind' (as divorced from emotion, the body, etc) is a shitty meme that just won't seem to die;

If you didn't have emotions

you would act less rational, not more rational

e.g. If you want to see irrationality, see patient 'S.M.'

Her amygdala (which generates negative emotion) was basically destroyed

And as a result she constantly wound up in dangerous situations

And was regularly exploited by people around her

All this talk of pure, disembodied rationality needs to read some William James and then die of dick cancer

 

 

2) Well where is this dreaded tribalism coming from?

Maybe it's coming from the exact strategy you're advocating

"Yeah yeah sincerity good faith whatever man...but first thing's first: we gotta secure/protect the interests of our tribe, yo"

 

Yeah, you can't advocate for the one and then complain about the other

You don't wanna put sincerity and good faith into the system?

Well then don't complain when the system doesn't miraculously exhibit sincerity or good faith

 

 

 

I don't understand how you're reading that stuff out of my posts.

Let me make it crystal clear: I like sincerity and good faith, but I don't think sincerity and good faith are going to fucking work on Trump et al. It did not work during the campaign and it's not working now, at least not on the people currently running the White House. It might work on regular people who feel that Trump is their only way forward, but since he has wound them up emotionally and keeps doing so, it's going to be really hard to get them to change.

And I'm not using the word "rational" in the way you think I am. My point is that if people are riled up emotionally - angry, afraid, etc. - then they're acting less rationally and making decisions in the heat of the moment without thinking.

I want to put sincerity and good faith into the system, but what I am saying is that Trump has and is currently putting industrial quantities of BAD faith in the system.

I don't get how I'm the one somehow advocating tribalism here.

  On 2/2/2017 at 9:47 AM, thawkins said:

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 8:56 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 6:49 AM, thawkins said:

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

@thawkins

1) So in short:

we should (as we always do) forgo long-term solutions for short-term solutions?

And then in 4-8 years scramble for some new short-term solutions?

And then...

 

Maybe one day we can entertain some more broad-scale 'macro' ideas

But since our current problems are immediate 'micro' problems

We need immediate 'micro' solutions...

Sorry if I sound like I am telling you how to solve your problems. I am not. I'm not american, I don't know

what's the best solution. I am just worried about all this shit, and I hope it doesn't end too violently.

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

2) I mean, you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into buying iPhones

(IPhones are--by design--inherently useful to humans; we don't buy them merely because we're sheeple)

And you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into acting to protect their body

(which is what fascism boils down to: remove all the things in the environment that might damage my body, regardless the cost to others)

Ok, ignore the iPhone, my point is that advertising works because of behavioral psychology. Now the same methods are

increasingly being used to mold people's thinking and turn off the rational mind. There's horrible stuff in that article I linked.

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

3) re: conceding flaws and good faith

 

I must be overly optimistic about humanity

Because my thinking is that sincerity and good faith are good strategies regardless of what your opponent thinks of them

If you think Trump's "concede no weakness whatsoever" is a better strategy

Then well yes I disagree with you

Ever seen that strange-ass film "Bullworth"?

Well, how do you beat/undermine a politician who is literally upfront about everything?

Who isn't hiding skeletons and insecurities and vulnerabilities?

Who volunteers the unsavory aspects of his past (that most politicians would scramble to hide)?

 

Well, to me that looks exactly like a stable long-term strategy/solution

Instead of this "hey, we should out-Machiavelli Machiavelli" game that people really like to play when the stakes are high-ish

 

But again, we can have this conversation again in 4-8 years or whenever

And we can decide on these same short-term solutions then too

(And who knows: maybe this time they'll work...)

My optimism in humanity took a big hit with Trump getting elected. I agree that sincerity and good faith are good strategies,

but I also feel that what has been going on has has emotionally charged people on both sides up to a level where tribalistic base instincts are taking over. And

those instincts do not produce rational responses with regard to modern society, but rather have evolved to preserve

the individual and their closer community (family, tribe, etc.).

 

I'm not saying Trump's strategy is better, I am just saying that currently, it's winning. And it's winning because he's switched off sincerity

and good faith in a lot of people by making them believe they're under attack, be it by muslim terrorists or the liberal left. On a micro/personal level you can

indeed change this by engaging with people and being nice, but you're up against an advanced hate propaganda machine.

1) The 'rational mind' (as divorced from emotion, the body, etc) is a shitty meme that just won't seem to die;

If you didn't have emotions

you would act less rational, not more rational

e.g. If you want to see irrationality, see patient 'S.M.'

Her amygdala (which generates negative emotion) was basically destroyed

And as a result she constantly wound up in dangerous situations

And was regularly exploited by people around her

All this talk of pure, disembodied rationality needs to read some William James and then die of dick cancer

 

 

2) Well where is this dreaded tribalism coming from?

Maybe it's coming from the exact strategy you're advocating

"Yeah yeah sincerity good faith whatever man...but first thing's first: we gotta secure/protect the interests of our tribe, yo"

 

Yeah, you can't advocate for the one and then complain about the other

You don't wanna put sincerity and good faith into the system?

Well then don't complain when the system doesn't miraculously exhibit sincerity or good faith

 

 

 

I don't understand how you're reading that stuff out of my posts.

Let me make it crystal clear: I like sincerity and good faith, but I don't think sincerity and good faith are going to fucking work on Trump et al. It did not work during the campaign and it's not working now, at least not on the people currently running the White House. It might work on regular people who feel that Trump is their only way forward, but since he has wound them up emotionally and keeps doing so, it's going to be really hard to get them to change.

And I'm not using the word "rational" in the way you think I am. My point is that if people are riled up emotionally - angry, afraid, etc. - then they're acting less rationally and making decisions in the heat of the moment without thinking.

I want to put sincerity and good faith into the system, but what I am saying is that Trump has and is currently putting industrial quantities of BAD faith in the system.

I don't get how I'm the one somehow advocating tribalism here.

(And my proposed 'long-term solution' isn't gonna work on this short-term problem?)

"It didn't work during the campaign"

Were people being sincere and honest during the campaign?

I must've missed the part where the political debate in the U.S. tried actual sincerity and actual good faith...and it failed

(Hillary is totally sincere and totally acts in good faith, btw)

P.S. You're saying "whatever it takes to stop Trump...good faith, bad faith, whatever it takes to implement our agenda"

Yeah well...that's the logic that drives the very 'tribalism' you're complaining about

(So yes you're advocating 'tribalism')

did someone get killed at a protest tonight?

i dont see the point in debating someone who can listen to the things trump has said, and support him. it is a polar opposite of the fundemental ideals that make me me, and i believe a genuine and irrevocable difference of belief in what is right and what is wrong. 

i would also describe my current political status as 'entirely given up and making doom laden techno while drinking cans of tennants and waiting for the apocalypse'

even if scotland achieves independence over the absolutely insane stupidity of the brexit vote, i would not be suprised if the tories just go to war with us immediately to subjugate us by force so they dont have to have their nukes close enough to their own homes to kill them. 

the point is understanding. you dont have to agree with someone to understand him/her. im sure there's some stuff hidden in your ideals which says something about happily coexisting with people who have different ideas. if not, than you might be just as fundamentalist as those fundamentalists you consider polar opposite.

quite possibly i am. as i say, i have given up, and cant be bothered worrying about it any more. im enjoying the political scope right now as sort of the best episode of brasseye to have been made. 

  On 2/2/2017 at 9:57 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 9:47 AM, thawkins said:

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 8:56 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 6:49 AM, thawkins said:

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

@thawkins

1) So in short:

we should (as we always do) forgo long-term solutions for short-term solutions?

And then in 4-8 years scramble for some new short-term solutions?

And then...

 

Maybe one day we can entertain some more broad-scale 'macro' ideas

But since our current problems are immediate 'micro' problems

We need immediate 'micro' solutions...

Sorry if I sound like I am telling you how to solve your problems. I am not. I'm not american, I don't know

what's the best solution. I am just worried about all this shit, and I hope it doesn't end too violently.

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

2) I mean, you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into buying iPhones

(IPhones are--by design--inherently useful to humans; we don't buy them merely because we're sheeple)

And you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into acting to protect their body

(which is what fascism boils down to: remove all the things in the environment that might damage my body, regardless the cost to others)

Ok, ignore the iPhone, my point is that advertising works because of behavioral psychology. Now the same methods are

increasingly being used to mold people's thinking and turn off the rational mind. There's horrible stuff in that article I linked.

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:43 AM, LimpyLoo said:

3) re: conceding flaws and good faith

 

I must be overly optimistic about humanity

Because my thinking is that sincerity and good faith are good strategies regardless of what your opponent thinks of them

If you think Trump's "concede no weakness whatsoever" is a better strategy

Then well yes I disagree with you

Ever seen that strange-ass film "Bullworth"?

Well, how do you beat/undermine a politician who is literally upfront about everything?

Who isn't hiding skeletons and insecurities and vulnerabilities?

Who volunteers the unsavory aspects of his past (that most politicians would scramble to hide)?

 

Well, to me that looks exactly like a stable long-term strategy/solution

Instead of this "hey, we should out-Machiavelli Machiavelli" game that people really like to play when the stakes are high-ish

 

But again, we can have this conversation again in 4-8 years or whenever

And we can decide on these same short-term solutions then too

(And who knows: maybe this time they'll work...)

My optimism in humanity took a big hit with Trump getting elected. I agree that sincerity and good faith are good strategies,

but I also feel that what has been going on has has emotionally charged people on both sides up to a level where tribalistic base instincts are taking over. And

those instincts do not produce rational responses with regard to modern society, but rather have evolved to preserve

the individual and their closer community (family, tribe, etc.).

 

I'm not saying Trump's strategy is better, I am just saying that currently, it's winning. And it's winning because he's switched off sincerity

and good faith in a lot of people by making them believe they're under attack, be it by muslim terrorists or the liberal left. On a micro/personal level you can

indeed change this by engaging with people and being nice, but you're up against an advanced hate propaganda machine.

1) The 'rational mind' (as divorced from emotion, the body, etc) is a shitty meme that just won't seem to die;

If you didn't have emotions

you would act less rational, not more rational

e.g. If you want to see irrationality, see patient 'S.M.'

Her amygdala (which generates negative emotion) was basically destroyed

And as a result she constantly wound up in dangerous situations

And was regularly exploited by people around her

All this talk of pure, disembodied rationality needs to read some William James and then die of dick cancer

 

 

2) Well where is this dreaded tribalism coming from?

Maybe it's coming from the exact strategy you're advocating

"Yeah yeah sincerity good faith whatever man...but first thing's first: we gotta secure/protect the interests of our tribe, yo"

 

Yeah, you can't advocate for the one and then complain about the other

You don't wanna put sincerity and good faith into the system?

Well then don't complain when the system doesn't miraculously exhibit sincerity or good faith

 

 

I don't understand how you're reading that stuff out of my posts.

Let me make it crystal clear: I like sincerity and good faith, but I don't think sincerity and good faith are going to fucking work on Trump et al. It did not work during the campaign and it's not working now, at least not on the people currently running the White House. It might work on regular people who feel that Trump is their only way forward, but since he has wound them up emotionally and keeps doing so, it's going to be really hard to get them to change.

And I'm not using the word "rational" in the way you think I am. My point is that if people are riled up emotionally - angry, afraid, etc. - then they're acting less rationally and making decisions in the heat of the moment without thinking.

I want to put sincerity and good faith into the system, but what I am saying is that Trump has and is currently putting industrial quantities of BAD faith in the system.

I don't get how I'm the one somehow advocating tribalism here.

You're saying we need a 'short-term solution' for dealing with Trump?

(And my proposed 'long-term solution' isn't gonna work on this short-term problem?)

 

"It didn't work during the campaign"

Were people being sincere and honest during the campaign?

I must've missed the part where the political debate in the U.S. tried actual sincerity and actual good faith...and it failed

(Hillary is totally sincere and totally acts in good faith, btw)

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 10:10 AM, LimpyLoo said:

P.S. You're saying "whatever it takes to stop Trump...good faith, bad faith, whatever it takes to implement our agenda"

 

Yeah well...that's the logic that drives the very 'tribalism' you're complaining about

(So yes you're advocating 'tribalism')

You're putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. I am not talking short term vs long term and I am not saying "whatever it takes to stop Trump". I am simply saying that what you propose does not make logical sense, because:

1) Trump, Bannon and his people have publicly said that they wish to burn down the world (figuratively speaking).

2) If you take their words and intentions in good faith, then the only conclusion is that they aren't interested in talking or negotiating with you. It's their way or the highway.

3) If you don't take their words at face value and try instead to figure out some 'real meaning' behind them, then by definition you are not taking their words and intentions in good faith.

So from here I conclude that before engaging in any good-spirited dialogue, the other side needs to be listening. It hasn't been listening for a long time and currently seems to be victoriously pissing on everyone who says that it should be listening. I don't care if the president is Trump, Clinton or whoever the fuck, what's going on right now is probably just a logical conclusion of people not really giving a damn about what politicians actually do and not holding anybody accountable.

Political activism for a common cause is not tribalism. The first is about what you believe and the second is about what you are.

does anyone have a link to the fake news story that they removed the bust? I've only heard of this story from the mouths of Preibus and Trump

EDIT: lol okay i guess it was this + the tweets?  http://www.snopes.com/mlk-bust-oval-office/

  On 2/2/2017 at 2:19 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 2/1/2017 at 8:06 PM, psn said:

No, just an endless brain fart.

 

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/826822342961745922

Holy fuckballs.

He's either a better actor than Raygun, or he's already got full blown dementia.

 

Tremendous. Freddy Doug.

 

Lando Calrissian. Entrepreneur, city administrator, and military general. I know he had some missteps at Cloud City with the Empire but boy did he make up for it?I think more people are appreciating what he did in the Rebellion. That Death Star II explosion was amaaazing. What a character. Can't wait for the new biopic. Love the Star Battles movies. Great stuff. That opening scroll. YUGE.

full transcript of trump's black history month speech (lol)

Welcome to your new theocracy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/us/politics/trump-vows-to-destroy-law-banning-political-activity-by-churches.html

Quick, let's try to see it from their perspective!

Done! Now what?

Everybody wants the world to be awesome

But nobody thinks that entails looking in the mirror

So they talk about short-term strategies for toppling Trump

And they scoff at the idea of acting how they want the world to act towards them

("because mate, we need a quick-and-dirty right-now solution for Trump, not some stable long-term systemic solution like you're advocating for")

When does 'political activism' become 'tribalism'?

How about this:

The gates are being stormed!

The gates are being stormed!

Do whatever it takes to defeat the barbarians!

Has anyone else noticed that the gates are always being stormed?

Well, maybe things are shitty because people use 'the gates are being stormed" as an excuse to do whatever they want in pursuit of their political agenda

Because lucky me, I'm now morally justified to use any means necessary to protect the tribe...

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:31 PM, Gocab said:

Quick, let's try to see it from their perspective!

 

Done! Now what?

Now obviously we shout the truth at them condescendingly

And when they (somehow) don't take our word for it

We call them idiots for not seeing the truth

And then we create memes about how stupid they are

And rant on social media about how stupid they are

Because hey, I tried to shame them into agreeing with me

And they didn't take my word for it

(Because they're idiots obviously)

What more can I possibly do?

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:57 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:31 PM, Gocab said:

Quick, let's try to see it from their perspective!

 

Done! Now what?

lol

 

Now obviously we shout the truth at them condescendingly

And when they (somehow) don't take our word for it

We call them idiots for not seeing the truth

And then we create memes about how stupid they are

And rant on social media about how stupid they are

Because hey, I tried to shame them into agreeing with me

And they didn't take my word for it

(Because they're idiots obviously)

What more can I possibly do?

 

Convincing creationists that evolution is demonstrably true isn't easy. They have to be willing to see the flaws in their own thought process. When people are still riding the high of "winning" they are less likely to do so. Unfortunately it will probably take something tragic to get everyone on the same page, but when Steve Bannon and co. are encouraging another large scale terrorist attack... well that's not really the best case scenario.  

thanks nebraska I didn't see that in the post directly above yours

In other words, it's difficult to create and implement a long-term strategy when you're in jail or dead.

Limpy: Keep tilting at them windmills.

@Candiru

  On 2/2/2017 at 5:01 PM, Nebraska said:

full transcript of trump's black history month speech (lol)