jordan peterson

the patriarchy i am referring to isn’t a theory or a leftist idea, it’s one of a number of types of cultural organization that has been observed through social anthropology.

ok, but my point still stands I think

edit: to clarify, I'm not devaluing your point I just don't think patriarchy is the only and/or main reason for this and other problems (I say particularly in Sweden because is where I have lived, but I think the same applies for most of developed Europe)

I also think if we overlook other reasons that could be causing the problem then the solutions we come up with could be very counterproductive

  On 5/9/2018 at 3:09 AM, Salvatorin said:

so since it seems to be the underlying crux of this thread and the likely source of JBP’s surge in popularity, let’s talk about what has been intonated multiple times in this thread: the alienation of men.

 

I think it is unwise to sneer and ignore the complaints of men (perhaps straight, white, but not necessarily). This is my theory: anglo culture is a patriarchal conquest-oriented warrior culture, at least to a large degree. This may seem confusing and counterintuitive as an argument but if you observe the history of anglo societies, the male rights of passage continue to this day to be primarily based on conquest, and social status based on whether it is achieved. competition is prized and failure results in a lesser status. gradually the meaning of conquest has adapted into ideas of economic self-suffiency, stoicness, and virility. because of the economic trends in the US and other anglo countries, the opportunity to achieve this male right of passage has diminished to near-impossibility. That lack of passage into cultural adulthood leads to deep self-doubt and hatred, which is projected outward.

I do agree that some white men perceive this to be happening but I'm failing to see any actual real world actionable things happening to bring their social status down. From what I've seen, it's all taking place on the internet, so is merely a perception they have based on what is being discussed online. White men are still in charge and running things basically everywhere.

Maybe some of them feel downtrodden because they spend way too much time online and not enough out there trying to make something real happen for themselves. Maybe some of them are finally feeling the economic effects that they've been insulated from for so long because the economic shifts are becoming too large to ignore. But again, all of this is happening because of white men. None of these things will change until they stop focusing on inconsequential things like their social currency on the internet. It'll keep creating these weaponized idiots. The snake will keep eating its own tail.

  On 5/9/2018 at 3:04 PM, patternoverlap said:

But again, all of this is happening because of white men.

its most certainly not happening only because of white men or only because of capitalism.. if you think that you're not taking the problem seriously!

  On 5/9/2018 at 3:13 PM, MIXL2 said:

 

  On 5/9/2018 at 3:04 PM, patternoverlap said:

But again, all of this is happening because of white men.

its most certainly not happening only because of white men or only because of capitalism.. if you think that you're not taking the problem seriously!

 

I'm absolutely taking it seriously. Mass shootings and violent protests/death threats etc should always be taken that way. The point I was trying to make was that who these people are mad at and what they are mad about aren't the same thing, and they are failing to see that. They nurture their negative perceptions in these little insular online communities and work themselves up into a rage, focusing so much on anecdotal evidence that reinforces their beliefs.

What I don't take seriously is their sense of entitlement.

ah, with that I agree.. I still think part of the problem also is what I mentioned before with bad upbringing

there b lots o issues, man

leftists like Cathy Newman

ffs

  On 5/9/2018 at 3:09 AM, Salvatorin said:

anglo culture is a patriarchal conquest-oriented warrior culture, at least to a large degree. This may seem confusing and counterintuitive as an argument but if you observe the history of anglo societies, the male rights of passage continue to this day to be primarily based on conquest, and social status based on whether it is achieved. competition is prized and failure results in a lesser status

fox hunting, according to rando furry sociopolitical theory 'fox' is male sexual ambiguity

  On 5/9/2018 at 3:09 AM, Salvatorin said:

so since it seems to be the underlying crux of this thread and the likely source of JBP’s surge in popularity, let’s talk about what has been intonated multiple times in this thread: the alienation of men.

 

I think it is unwise to sneer and ignore the complaints of men (perhaps straight, white, but not necessarily). This is my theory: anglo culture is a patriarchal conquest-oriented warrior culture, at least to a large degree. This may seem confusing and counterintuitive as an argument but if you observe the history of anglo societies, the male rights of passage continue to this day to be primarily based on conquest, and social status based on whether it is achieved. competition is prized and failure results in a lesser status. gradually the meaning of conquest has adapted into ideas of economic self-suffiency, stoicness, and virility. because of the economic trends in the US and other anglo countries, the opportunity to achieve this male right of passage has diminished to near-impossibility. That lack of passage into cultural adulthood leads to deep self-doubt and hatred, which is projected outward.

the alienation of men is one of western society's greatest taboos, prob just a few notches below death - for proof of the latter just watch GoT's for a summary of the collective fear manifesting in an army of dead cunts, or direst The Walking Dead as another cultural signifier, or more discreetly the masses of retirement/care homes tucked away out of everyday view, or more viscerally with a death cult like IS splashed all over the media

so you have societies burying their heads in the sand about death, its meaning & finality, the costs of care & the medical infrastructures needed to pay for aging populations, all while television & marketing ads aim the bulk of their products at younger generations

2ndly - one of the problems with certain media platforms & commentators constantly screaming PATRIARCHY (rather than hegemony), which Peterson is astute enough to realize & profit from, is that it further alienates younger men, aka the bulk of Peterson's audience/fan-base, who are justifiably perplexed about why, as young people beginning adulthood, they are collectively being smashed in various media outlets as the root/cause of these imposed & inherited global problems, who then look for deeper meanings & methodologies toward enhancing personal responsibility which are the core mantras behind Peterson's approach - "take responsibility for self improvement, make a plan & work towards those goals"

youngish men under 44 make up the bulk of suicides in the western world & in certain ethnic demographics are the number one cause of early death, i've known 4 male suicides in the last 18months....you couldnt say the same thing about disease, rta's or inter-personal violence/murder

as someone of Irish & Welsh heritage, few things provide greater pleasure than putting the boot into Anglo-centric culture, so without getting into unnecessary & irrelevant cultural generalizations about the male-Anglo sphere as being conquest dominated (maybe 1500yrs ago & thats still includes all the wars across the globe between 700AD til the present where the cultures certainly werent/arent Anglicized), what i see today is that anger on the whole is increasingly diverted inward, through self harm, through mental health care organizations unfit for purpose compounding the problem & because societies (not just men) arent communicating about this epidemic, and it is an epidemic

anyone olde enough to remember the early AIDS/HIV adverts/marketing? is there anything comparable today regarding male suicide? is there fuck

rights of passage still exist, in my youth it was football violence, then House/dance music, for later generations music still plays an important and integral role (just look at this message board as a case study because music is something you grow up with, can participate in/create and continue to enjoy as the years go by), so this idea that limitations on the ability to participate in Anglo-centric conquest ventures as a root cause for this expression of anger is a distraction at best

imho, its more to do with working tedious service sector jobs (theres a PhD waiting out there on male service sector staff & the rates of tattoos/intensive physical grooming & significance of external physical appearance...the alt-right seem a prime example here with their standardized hair cuts & attire & ps fuck you Gavin McInnes), growing wealth divides, property price escalations year in year out so vast numbers of young men & women are stuck in rental markets where constant moving is standard (see Spiral's problem as a perfect case study, btw, maaaan i love your music even if you're a belligerent fucker), so its difficult to save money, to create stability & only a small few have access to sizable inheritances to fall back on, so its like undermining the pyramid of security times the square root of the law of diminishing returns....incidentally suicide rates are at their lowest during times of war, not because war facilitates conquest behaviour, but because people just wanna get thru the next few hours.....

if you research in a field like mental health like i do or volunteer or have a friend/relative going through hell, you begin to notice that men will complain less than women when care plans are inadequate, which means they're more likely to fall thru the cracks, get sectioned, lose social connections etc & eventually take their own lives - men are more likely to self harm thru suicide than go on a rampage, but its only mass shootings/killings that make the news when theres a genuine health crisis iceberg that rarely gets reported on or promoted in the public domain

the complexity is aggravated because each "western" nation has its own health-care/mental health-care sectors/systems, its own employment law structures (EU slight convergence), its own property ladder shortfalls depending on nation & region and its own employment sector gender demographics

imho this is where capitalism fails us (collectively) the most & yet Peterson, a thorough advocate of capitalism, has this self help guide which in many instances fails to account for the specific difficulties each individual can face (regardless of sex), while preying on this quest for individual responsibility....it might help a few, but the problems are ultimately systemic & it can only ever gloss over the real causes

ultimately i think he means well on the few occasions i've heard him "talk up" the problems of male suicide, but the issues underpinning this epidemic are so deeply entrenched economically and trans-nationally that a workable, transnational "answer" is so complex that no-one, not your politicians, not the media, not even your friends, will want to open up about

if there's no conversation, there can be no resolutions & thats fkn scary if you've ever had to pick up the pieces of someone close to you ending it & for some of you this has either already happened or is in the post, because my own experiences of losing male friends to suicide are by no means unique & it will only get worse before its real causes are begun to be addressed.....we like to think we're individuals, unique, varied in tastes, with a moral center that wants to do the right things, but systemically we're simply resources of labour, like land, working for economies that dont work for us

  On 5/9/2018 at 7:53 PM, Ragnar said:

 

  On 5/9/2018 at 3:09 AM, Salvatorin said:

anglo culture is a patriarchal conquest-oriented warrior culture, at least to a large degree. This may seem confusing and counterintuitive as an argument but if you observe the history of anglo societies, the male rights of passage continue to this day to be primarily based on conquest, and social status based on whether it is achieved. competition is prized and failure results in a lesser status

 

pretty sure there is a subculture of english men who privately write gay highlander fanfics, roman version of gay, standing over a dude "there can be only one"

  On 5/9/2018 at 8:09 PM, Ragnar said:

 

 

 

pretty sure there is a subculture of english men who privately write gay highlander fanfics, roman version of gay, standing over a dude "there can be only one"

its called the English public school system & they "paint"  their cohort's bodies in the same way Lynndie England used Iraqi prisoners

  On 5/9/2018 at 8:02 PM, cwmbrancity said:

 

  On 5/9/2018 at 3:09 AM, Salvatorin said:

so since it seems to be the underlying crux of this thread and the likely source of JBP’s surge in popularity, let’s talk about what has been intonated multiple times in this thread: the alienation of men.

I think it is unwise to sneer and ignore the complaints of men (perhaps straight, white, but not necessarily). This is my theory: anglo culture is a patriarchal conquest-oriented warrior culture, at least to a large degree. This may seem confusing and counterintuitive as an argument but if you observe the history of anglo societies, the male rights of passage continue to this day to be primarily based on conquest, and social status based on whether it is achieved. competition is prized and failure results in a lesser status. gradually the meaning of conquest has adapted into ideas of economic self-suffiency, stoicness, and virility. because of the economic trends in the US and other anglo countries, the opportunity to achieve this male right of passage has diminished to near-impossibility. That lack of passage into cultural adulthood leads to deep self-doubt and hatred, which is projected outward.

 

 

the alienation of men is one of western society's greatest taboos, prob just a few notches below death - for proof of the latter just watch GoT's for a summary of the collective fear manifesting in an army of dead cunts, or direst The Walking Dead as another cultural signifier, or more discreetly the masses of retirement/care homes tucked away out of everyday view, or more viscerally with a death cult like IS splashed all over the media

 

so you have societies burying their heads in the sand about death, its meaning & finality, the costs of care & the medical infrastructures needed to pay for aging populations, all while television & marketing ads aim the bulk of their products at younger generations

 

 

2ndly - one of the problems with certain media platforms & commentators constantly screaming PATRIARCHY (rather than hegemony), which Peterson is astute enough to realize & profit from, is that it further alienates younger men, aka the bulk of Peterson's audience/fan-base, who are justifiably perplexed about why, as young people beginning adulthood, they are collectively being smashed in various media outlets as the root/cause of these imposed & inherited global problems, who then look for deeper meanings & methodologies toward enhancing personal responsibility which are the core mantras behind Peterson's approach - "take responsibility for self improvement, make a plan & work towards those goals"

 

youngish men under 44 make up the bulk of suicides in the western world & in certain ethnic demographics are the number one cause of early death, i've known 4 male suicides in the last 18months....you couldnt say the same thing about disease, rta's or inter-personal violence/murder

 

as someone of Irish & Welsh heritage, few things provide greater pleasure than putting the boot into Anglo-centric culture, so without getting into unnecessary & irrelevant cultural generalizations about the male-Anglo sphere as being conquest dominated (maybe 1500yrs ago & thats still includes all the wars across the globe between 700AD til the present where the cultures certainly werent/arent Anglicized), what i see today is that anger on the whole is increasingly diverted inward, through self harm, through mental health care organizations unfit for purpose compounding the problem & because societies (not just men) arent communicating about this epidemic, and it is an epidemic

 

anyone olde enough to remember the early AIDS/HIV adverts/marketing? is there anything comparable today regarding male suicide? is there fuck

 

rights of passage still exist, in my youth it was football violence, then House/dance music, for later generations music still plays an important and integral role (just look at this message board as a case study because music is something you grow up with, can participate in/create and continue to enjoy as the years go by), so this idea that limitations on the ability to participate in Anglo-centric conquest ventures as a root cause for this expression of anger is a distraction at best

 

imho, its more to do with working tedious service sector jobs (theres a PhD waiting out there on male service sector staff & the rates of tattoos/intensive physical grooming & significance of external physical appearance...the alt-right seem a prime example here with their standardized hair cuts & attire & ps fuck you Gavin McInnes), growing wealth divides, property price escalations year in year out so vast numbers of young men & women are stuck in rental markets where constant moving is standard (see Spiral's problem as a perfect case study, btw, maaaan i love your music even if you're a belligerent fucker), so its difficult to save money, to create stability & only a small few have access to sizable inheritances to fall back on, so its like undermining the pyramid of security times the square root of the law of diminishing returns....incidentally suicide rates are at their lowest during times of war, not because war facilitates conquest behaviour, but because people just wanna get thru the next few hours.....

 

if you research in a field like mental health like i do or volunteer or have a friend/relative going through hell, you begin to notice that men will complain less than women when care plans are inadequate, which means they're more likely to fall thru the cracks, get sectioned, lose social connections etc & eventually take their own lives - men are more likely to self harm thru suicide than go on a rampage, but its only mass shootings/killings that make the news when theres a genuine health crisis iceberg that rarely gets reported on or promoted in the public domain

 

the complexity is aggravated because each "western" nation has its own health-care/mental health-care sectors/systems, its own employment law structures (EU slight convergence), its own property ladder shortfalls depending on nation & region and its own employment sector gender demographics

 

imho this is where capitalism fails us (collectively) the most & yet Peterson, a thorough advocate of capitalism, has this self help guide which in many instances fails to account for the specific difficulties each individual can face (regardless of sex), while preying on this quest for individual responsibility....it might help a few, but the problems are ultimately systemic & it can only ever gloss over the real causes

 

ultimately i think he means well on the few occasions i've heard him "talk up" the problems of male suicide, but the issues underpinning this epidemic are so deeply entrenched economically and trans-nationally that a workable, transnational "answer" is so complex that no-one, not your politicians, not the media, not even your friends, will want to open up about

 

if there's no conversation, there can be no resolutions & thats fkn scary if you've ever had to pick up the pieces of someone close to you ending it & for some of you this has either already happened or is in the post, because my own experiences of losing male friends to suicide are by no means unique & it will only get worse before its real causes are begun to be addressed.....we like to think we're individuals, unique, varied in tastes, with a moral center that wants to do the right things, but systemically we're simply resources of labour, like land, working for economies that dont work for us

I'll repeat again. I think the problem has both individual and systematic aspects to it.. and the level to which both drive the problem are definitely different from country to country.

It shouldn't be underestimated how much the individual attitude towards the problem plays a role imo.. Peterson does after all, reportedly, get around a dozen people every lecture saying his ideas saved them from the edge.

As for capitalism being at fault I can definetly vouche for this being the case after living in Colombia for 8 years.. where corruption is ripe and you see true poverty on the streets beside multimillionaire buildings owned by very few.

However there also seems to be answers in capitalism, the society here in Sweden has managed to trim the level of equality of opportunity to the point were my gf's mom could buy a house despite working as a janitor.. and can gave a decent level of life (this is not a single-case thing btw.. in principle anyone, despite their job can have a decent quality of life).

But we still have increasing suicide/depression rates.. and so we come back to my main point. This and id say many other problems in society are not only due to capitalism.. and Peterson's message to take responsibility and find meaning in ones life can help in driving oneself and society away from hell.

edit: id like to stress the point of lack of fatherhood playing a role in our modern societies too.. which I mentioned earlier, this point shouldn't go unnoticed!

  On 5/9/2018 at 8:51 PM, cwmbrancity said:

 

  On 5/9/2018 at 8:09 PM, Ragnar said:

 

 

 

pretty sure there is a subculture of english men who privately write gay highlander fanfics, roman version of gay, standing over a dude "there can be only one"

 

 

its called the English public school system & they "paint"  their cohort's bodies in the same way Lynndie England used Iraqi prisoners

 

good to know

so without being immersed in that scene

first of all not necessarily about the guy in the topic but anyone, 'redpill' types with weird notions 'what is being man'. Red is also the color of the red fox hmmmm

no but a lot of Disney conspiracy stuff kind of, I think gets icky with the fact that real world Disney is probably kind of gay friendly at least sometimes? "The gay agenda" worst form of conspirtism. Fuck you guys, that sort of thing can save a child's life/sanity amirite

so let's say regardless of the demographics of disney animators that Disney's Robin Hood was a social commentary/subversion/inversion of English fox hunting lol

1. in disney robin hood world fox hunt you 2. the character is like english fox hunting ritual in sherwood forest but he /is/ the fox lol, soviet russia, it's canon the voice actor is gay at least. Knowing the voice actor is gay, if sinks into ur brain subconsciously it's constantly mocking heteronormative notion of being heroic dude who charms teh ladies. Regardless of whether the female fox love interest is authentic, there is also LITTLE JOHN and they are like (interspecies but maybe not important) bros/"partners in crime" practicing bow and arrow with no pants in the middle of sherwood forest somewhere? Robin Hood actor irl is some shakespearian guy, doesn't 'taking a bow' imply bending over to some extent flol. And then like Prince John lion guy is totally not cool with himself, sucks his thumb constantly, 'all the riches baby' don't seem to make him too happy anyway. Becoming famous actor/pilot/zenu person does not help either

I dunno that's all I've got

not even "Fantastic Mr Fox"?

he takes personal responsibility v seriously, has a plan & keeps to it, despite the local human patriarch trying to kill him every which way

  On 5/9/2018 at 9:19 PM, cwmbrancity said:

not even "Fantastic Mr Fox"?

 

he takes personal responsibility v seriously, has a plan & keeps to it, despite the local human patriarch trying to kill him every which way

juiceboxes

whatever was going on there how dare a father figure accept his son in whatever way

interspecies bro/partner in crime theme revisited but also is he like an infantlist aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Haha yeah ^ this is great

Disney's Robin Hood is a wonderful little movie, haven't seen it in years tho

Maybe since they're remaking old animated films as 'live action' they could do this with Peterson as a character? Sounds perfect really

  On 5/9/2018 at 9:41 PM, auxien said:

Maybe since they're remaking old animated films as 'live action' they could do this with Peterson as a character? Sounds perfect really

r u psychic or does wikipedia exist

for some reason I thought Nick was Jewish and it's secret opinion on good comedy

"have fun working with the fuzz" oh god does that noooooooooooo

  On 5/9/2018 at 9:48 PM, Ragnar said:

r u psychic or does wikipedia exist

Both. 

  On 5/9/2018 at 9:48 PM, Ragnar said:

r u psychic or does wikipedia exist

 

unrelated

https://youtu.be/Uh0Il96wxbc?t=26

the psychosexualsociopolitical implications of 'man' being easier to say/spell than 'woman' even if only by a little. It's a whole extra syllable at least so when you have dumb monkeybrain you're gonna wanna say 'ook ook man ook oook'. Swear words possibly have roots in primitive monkey vocalizations btw (why they're kind of fun to say?). But yeah 'man' is EZ default status quo easy to say gender label. EZ Money HD

  On 5/10/2018 at 5:08 AM, Ragnar said:

the psychosexualsociopolitical implications of 'man' being easier to say/spell than 'woman' even if only by a little. It's a whole extra syllable at least so when you have dumb monkeybrain you're gonna wanna say 'ook ook man ook oook'. Swear words possibly have roots in primitive monkey vocalizations btw (why they're kind of fun to say?). But yeah 'man' is EZ default status quo easy to say gender label. EZ Money HD

 

Jordan Peterson subforum pls