Russia is now bombing Ukraine

  On 3/7/2022 at 2:32 AM, ignatius said:

doesn't everyone here already know though? 

:giant shrug emoji:

  On 3/7/2022 at 2:17 AM, chenGOD said:

He’s not defending Putin. He’s making sure we all know “America bad too, electric boogaloo”

i barely talked about america in this thread most recently posting about ukrainian nazis.  as expected tho they are funded by US

  On 3/7/2022 at 3:02 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

i barely talked about america in this thread most recently posting about ukrainian nazis.  as expected tho they are funded by US

You spent half the thread yammering on about NATO. Regardless, you truly seem to think that America is the greatest evil in the world, despite providing you with a level of comfort almost unparalleled in history, with the ability to say basically whatever the fuck you want without worrying about getting arrested or disappeared. 
The azov battalions make up approx 2% of Ukraine fighting forces, let alone the general population of the Ukraine. 
they also received a massive boost when Russia annexed Crimea, which you manage to elide consistently when discussing them. 

I'm glad we've got all different voices in this thread, I'd rather have it that way than heavily normative.

I'm getting useful bits from all of you, even if there are some bits I don't agree with.

And everyone is being reasonably civil, if you allow for the fact that emotions will run high in a thread like this

Hermolia is right though. Western liberals have a tendency to think life is like a Marvel film, that everything is black and white, that there's always good guy and a bad guy. This whole situation is extremely complicated and cannot be watered down to some kind of binary thing you just hop on board with like a game of football. We are witnessing US expansionism and Russian expansionism fight using Ukraine as the battlefield putting countless lives at risk and forcing millions to flee their homeland in the last few weeks that their families have spent generations in - (And that's just me watering it down myself).

And as I said earlier in the thread -- Fuck NATO, Fuck Putin.

I find it incredible that Putin acts like it is freeing Ukraine from "nazis". While he's actually eyeing Western influences (US). And he does so by invading Ukraine with some half arsed war. (his failed Blitzkrieg) And meanwhile, we're supposed to be nuanced about it? F your "nuances"! Putin ordered an invasion of a free country under false pretences. There's nothing nuanced about a gun aimed at your head. The whole US-this and US-that is nothing but poor excuses and pathological paranoia, imo. If Putin wants to fight the US, he should leave Ukraine where it is and point his guns at the US.

  On 3/7/2022 at 3:10 AM, chenGOD said:

Regardless, you truly seem to think that America is the greatest evil in the world, despite providing you with a level of comfort almost unparalleled in history, with the ability to say basically whatever the fuck you want without worrying about getting arrested or disappeared.

yeah you can eat all the burgers you want and talk shit and probably wont get arrested, but disclose any shit that goes on behind the scenes and you get panama papered or Snowed-in ;). if you steal 100 bucks, you'll go to jail for 10(+) years, but if you commit a millions-heavy federal fraud and you're a "part of the tribe" you'll get a silly tap on the wrist and get to keep the money. if you become an (allied!) country leader, you'll receive a memo in a few days outlining what you can and can't do as a "sovereign" nation. and if you don't stick to the memo, you'll get gaddafied. oh you want to unionize for worker rights? haha, nice joke fella, billion dollar corporations are the only one on social welfare, here, fight a platoon of million-dollar lawyers, while you struggle to keep your kid in college. i can go on all day about this. no nation is perfect, and yes, there are shittier countries than usa. but saying someone should stop exercising his constitutional citizen rights and strive to have a better society is just the worst case of peer repression imaginable. see, you don't even need state repression. the sheep do it for you.

  On 3/7/2022 at 11:58 AM, Satans Little Helper said:

And meanwhile, we're supposed to be nuanced about it? F your "nuances"! Putin ordered an invasion of a free country under false pretences.

I like nuance, its about understanding the details

I think its possible to understand that Putins rhetoric about de-nazifying Ukraine is bullshit, while also acknowledging that Ukraine does have a bit of an unusual nazi situation.

The far right only got about 2% in the 2019 Ukraine election. Not that different to a lot of countries. But the difference in Ukraine is that the far-right are heavily armed. They will likely be a factor to keep an eye on in the end-game of this conflict.

I think its important to be aware of them, not sweep it under the carpet.

New York Times article from Mid February:
"Armed Nationalists in Ukraine Pose a Threat Not Just to Russia"
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/world/europe/ukraine-nationalism-russia-invasion.html

New Statesman, mid February
"Silence won’t make the Ukrainian far right go away"
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2022/02/silence-wont-make-the-ukrainian-far-right-go-away

relevant beats?

  On 3/7/2022 at 1:17 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

warning: disturbing ukrainian nazi rallies and public chants

https://imgur.com/a/nFHI1ao

warning: disturbing ukrainian nazi rallies and public chants.  very angry and righteous old man at the end calls them neo-fascists and gets booed by the massive nazi crowd

https://imgur.com/a/IMcGhIL

putin talking about the topic:

https://imgur.com/a/ajJfnCA

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Thanks for parroting the official Kremlin line on this. But if you are really interested in meeting neo nazi skinheads, you can find them marching around Moscow and St Petersburg every week, Russia is overflowing with them. And their white-supremecist, anti-gay, anti-Jewish views are far more mainstream in Russia than in Ukraine - which is led by a Jewish president as everyone knows by now.

Everyday is a school day!

  On 3/7/2022 at 11:58 AM, Satans Little Helper said:

I find it incredible that Putin acts like it is freeing Ukraine from "nazis". While he's actually eyeing Western influences (US). And he does so by invading Ukraine with some half arsed war. (his failed Blitzkrieg) And meanwhile, we're supposed to be nuanced about it? F your "nuances"! Putin ordered an invasion of a free country under false pretences. There's nothing nuanced about a gun aimed at your head. The whole US-this and US-that is nothing but poor excuses and pathological paranoia, imo. If Putin wants to fight the US, he should leave Ukraine where it is and point his guns at the US.

Ohhh yeah "paranoia"....... (Bearing in mind this map is 12 years out of date)

Of course Putin's invasion is incredibly evil and also very confusing (because you're right there, this is not about denazification) - but downplaying the USA's rabid expansionism over the years is hilarious.

  On 3/7/2022 at 11:58 AM, Satans Little Helper said:

I find it incredible that Putin acts like it is freeing Ukraine from "nazis". While he's actually eyeing Western influences (US). And he does so by invading Ukraine with some half arsed war. (his failed Blitzkrieg) And meanwhile, we're supposed to be nuanced about it? F your "nuances"! Putin ordered an invasion of a free country under false pretences. There's nothing nuanced about a gun aimed at your head. The whole US-this and US-that is nothing but poor excuses and pathological paranoia, imo. If Putin wants to fight the US, he should leave Ukraine where it is and point his guns at the US.

Additionally, sure, in this case nuance is not entirely good as in the short term we need to help out Ukraine because they no doubt are the victim in this situation. But siding with NATO like a loyal dog is not a good thing to be doing in the long term. It's flabbergastingly ironic that the so called "anti-war movement" is showing support to international military organisations.

Unrolled thread for better legibility.

  Quote

Our conditional deadline is June. Conditional because in June there will be no economy left in Russia – there will be nothing left. 

By and large, next week there will be a collapse (in Russia) to either of the two sides (for vs against war), simply because current tension (in Russia) is unsustainable. 

We have no analyses, we can’t make any forecasts in this chaos, no one will be able to say anything with any certainty (in Russia). 

To act through intuition, especially with high emotions, this is no poker game. But our bets will have to grow in size with hope that some option will succeed. The tragedy is that we can easily miscalculate, and as a result lose everything. 

By and large, Russia does not have an out. There are no options for a possible victory, only of losses – this is it.

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  On 3/7/2022 at 1:29 PM, milkface said:

Ohhh yeah "paranoia"....... (Bearing in mind this map is 12 years out of date)

Of course Putin's invasion is incredibly evil and also very confusing (because you're right there, this is not about denazification) - but downplaying the USA's rabid expansionism over the years is hilarious.

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That's quite a post coming from someone arguing for more nuance. So Westerners tend to think binary (Marvel?) and don't take all the complexities in account when dealing with issues like these? Yet here you are adding "Fuck NATO, Fuck Putin" and a picture suggesting the US just bombs half the planet without any consequences.

Nuance? Complexity? This looks *exactly* like all the nonsense that fits the bill of being binary and without taking any of the complexities into account.

OK, so I can pretend to be nuanced as well and discuss about Nazis in Ukraine. Is that even a valid excuse for Putin to do what he is currently doing? What about those extremist right wing militia in the US? Why doesn't Putin send his army to save the US from those? 

edit: there's a difference between nuance and just going off in the woods. or rather, going down some rabbit hole like Alice in Wonderland. But hey, it's a rabbit hole  with a lot of extremely complicated issues and nuance! *strokes ego*

  On 3/7/2022 at 1:46 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

That's quite a post coming from someone arguing for more nuance. So Westerners tend to think binary (Marvel?) and don't take all the complexities in account when dealing with issues like these? Yet here you are adding "Fuck NATO, Fuck Putin" and a picture suggesting the US just bombs half the planet without any consequences.

Nuance? Complexity? This looks *exactly* like all the nonsense that fits the bill of being binary and without taking any of the complexities into account.

OK, so I can pretend to be nuanced as well and discuss about Nazis in Ukraine. Is that even a valid excuse for Putin to do what he is currently doing? What about those extremist right wing militia in the US? Why doesn't Putin send his army to save the US from those?

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I wasn't on about nuance I was commenting on your defence of the status quo as an American. Also you got me mixed up with Hermolia, I never mentioned the nazis in Ukraine. A full on invasion of Ukraine with the aim of "denazifying" whilst displacing millions, killing thousands as well as destroying infrastructure would be the most stupid and chauvinistic thing ever. (Which it is).

  On 3/7/2022 at 12:01 PM, cichlisuite said:

yeah you can eat all the burgers you want and talk shit and probably wont get arrested, but disclose any shit that goes on behind the scenes and you get panama papered or Snowed-in ;). if you steal 100 bucks, you'll go to jail for 10(+) years, but if you commit a millions-heavy federal fraud and you're a "part of the tribe" you'll get a silly tap on the wrist and get to keep the money. if you become an (allied!) country leader, you'll receive a memo in a few days outlining what you can and can't do as a "sovereign" nation. and if you don't stick to the memo, you'll get gaddafied. oh you want to unionize for worker rights? haha, nice joke fella, billion dollar corporations are the only one on social welfare, here, fight a platoon of million-dollar lawyers, while you struggle to keep your kid in college. i can go on all day about this. no nation is perfect, and yes, there are shittier countries than usa. but saying someone should stop exercising his constitutional citizen rights and strive to have a better society is just the worst case of peer repression imaginable. see, you don't even need state repression. the sheep do it for you.

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Amen.

  On 3/7/2022 at 1:52 PM, milkface said:

I wasn't on about nuance I was commenting on your defence of the status quo as an American. Also you got me mixed up with Hermolia, I never mentioned the nazis in Ukraine. A full on invasion of Ukraine with the aim of "denazifying" whilst displacing millions, killing thousands as well as destroying infrastructure would be the most stupid and chauvinistic thing ever. (Which it is).

Amen.

My defence of the status quo as an American? What are you talking about? Also, I don't have you mixed up with Zeff/Hermit. I took aim at your claims of nuance and lack thereof.

And I think you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. A defence of the US status quo which I'm not aware off. And I'm also supposed to have Zeff's argument in mind. Do I have more in my mind? Except for Marvel movies and Disney fairytales? Capitalist Cheeseburgers perhaps?

I'm sure you've got a very well thought out and nuanced idea about my one dimensional consumerist capitalist mindset. Taking all the complexities in account as well, I'm sure.

  On 3/7/2022 at 1:38 PM, milkface said:

Additionally, sure, in this case nuance is not entirely good as in the short term we need to help out Ukraine because they no doubt are the victim in this situation. But siding with NATO like a loyal dog is not a good thing to be doing in the long term. It's flabbergastingly ironic that the so called "anti-war movement" is showing support to international military organisations.

What do you mean with siding with NATO? About what? What are you even talking about?

  On 3/7/2022 at 1:29 PM, milkface said:

 but downplaying the USA's rabid expansionism over the years is hilarious.

Downplaying USA's rabid expansionism? What are you talking about?

Question: would you argue Russia's mission in Syria is a kind of expansionism? 

The invasion in the Ukraine clearly is, btw.

  On 3/7/2022 at 1:43 PM, dcom said:

Unrolled thread for better legibility.

 

Interesting read. Thanks! Reads like a bureaucrat working overtime. And I'm still surprised by the amount of hubris. That's not just Putin. The whole system seems to have this mindset of playing some kind of fantasy role playing game where they think they can do what they believe the US is doing. 

Surprised Erdogan/Turkey is mentioned as well, btw. As the coming talks between Lavrov and his Ukrainian equivalent are supposed to take place in Turkey this week. The Turkish-Russian relationship is an interesting one. And it's def interesting it pops up right in the middle of this mess. Also note Turkey is another one of those countries on the list of potential EU membership. Or it was.

  On 3/7/2022 at 12:52 PM, chronical said:

 

relevant beats?

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  On 3/7/2022 at 12:01 PM, cichlisuite said:

saying someone should stop exercising his constitutional citizen rights and strive to have a better society

I knew someone would say this. Is that what I said? Read carefully.

  On 3/7/2022 at 2:06 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

And I think you're putting a lot of words in my mouth.

You're continuing to do just this which is why I'm not even gonna both responding to your wall of text. Plus you're assuming that by bashing NATO I therefore must be pro Russia lol. Only proving my initial point right claiming that westeners tend to believe that if you criticise X then you must be Y. Read my previous posts very carefully and slowly.

  On 3/7/2022 at 4:33 PM, milkface said:

You're continuing to do this which is why I'm not even gonna both responding to your wall of text. Plus you're assuming that by bashing NATO I'm pro Russia lol. Only proving me right. Read my previous posts very carefully and slowly.

I'm assuming that you're pro russia? Where?

You're full of it, son.

  On 3/7/2022 at 4:36 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

I'm assuming that you're pro russia? Where?

You're full of it, son.

When you said this:

"Question: would you argue Russia's mission in Syria is a kind of expansionism? 

The invasion in the Ukraine clearly is, btw." - Of course I think the same as you. Hense why I said literally on the same page that this current situation US expansionism up against Russian expansionism using Ukraine as the battlefield. Russia want to push their influence west, and the USA want to push their influence east and neither are happy about the opposite persons' actions.

how sick would it be if putin and biden duked it out in a mecha battle?