Russia is now bombing Ukraine

do you really expect an honest and open insight into their views? in an interview with tucker carlson?

it's ok if you want to "engage" in these kind of things. but don't start with a rant on why tucker carlson even did that interview. if that's your starting point, my guess is you are way too naïve to "engage". and then complain about my lack of willingness to engage in that BS. 

here's some insight into russian motivations

  On 12/7/2024 at 2:48 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

do you really expect an honest and open insight into their views? in an interview with tucker carlson?

it's ok if you want to "engage" in these kind of things. but don't start with a rant on why tucker carlson even did that interview. if that's your starting point, my guess is you are way too naïve to "engage". and then complain about my lack of willingness to engage in that BS. 

here's some insight into russian motivations

 

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To answer your question, I do expect openness from Lavrov in explaining what the Russian position is of the Ukrainian conflict. I also expect honesty, and by this I do not mean honesty about their rationalizations and explanations for starting the war, but honesty about what their intentions are in the war, what their goals are, how they plan to implement those goals, and, most importantly, what they are willing to do and risk when it comes to escalation.

My point in citing McNamara before, and his rule of war to 'Empathize with your enemy', is that it is essential in foreign affairs to understand your enemy's thoughts and, most importantly, how these thoughts are guiding their actions in a military conflict. Obviously lavrov represents a country that is engaged in a large scale military conflict, so he is going to withhold and misrepresent information. American leaders do the same exact thing, most egregiously in middle eastern conflicts. This doesn't mean that I am going to stop watching interviews with American officials where they are asked and then respond to questions about what is guiding their policy and actions.

You disagree with the Russians and think that they are bad for starting this war, and you think that their explanation for why they entered into the conflict and invaded is all propaganda. That is all fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the war continues and that the Russians have the military advantage currently, and that it seems highly unlikely that Ukraine will be able to capture back control of the territory that Russia has gained control of since the invasion, roughly 17% of the country, located in those eastern oblasts that border russia. This is just the reality of the situation. Ukraine's manpower situation is dismal. Americans are urging them to start drafting 18 year olds and also to draft female soldiers (in current ukrainian law, women can serve in the military voluntarily but they cannot be drafted, I have read this)

I watched the Lavrov interview, and he talks not only about Ukraine but also about other current conflicts, like gaza/palestine and the resurgence of the syrian civil war. He explains his position, the current foreign policy of Russia. He talks about what diplomacy (or lack thereof) between Russia and US looks like from his perspective.

I am not out here trying to talk about how great a guy tucker carlson. I honestly do not give a fuck about him and I think he is by and large a jackass. He does not really editorialize during the interview except to express his concern over the fact that nuclear war is being openly discussed by both sides. He asks questions and lavrov does a majority of the talking (for over an hour).

  On 12/7/2024 at 5:13 PM, decibal cooper said:

To answer your question, I do expect openness from Lavrov in explaining what the Russian position is of the Ukrainian conflict. I also expect honesty, and by this I do not mean honesty about their rationalizations and explanations for starting the war, but honesty about what their intentions are in the war, what their goals are, how they plan to implement those goals, and, most importantly, what they are willing to do and risk when it comes to escalation.

You expect openness and honesty from a representative of a government which locks up people who openly disagree with it? Or worse, kill them? (navalny) Being open and honest might be a recipe for death.

Perhaps you should start with understanding their intention behind getting rid of all opposition within their country. And do you believe their "nazi" argument behind their "special operation" was honest?

There's a big difference between empathising and believing people. And when listening to representatives like Lavrov, you need more than what they're saying at face value. Sure it's important to empathise and understand them. But if your starting assumption is that they'll be open and honest, you're making a big mistake.

Again, he's not having a talk with Carlson to be open and honest. He has an agenda. He's pushing Putins agenda. And Putins agenda is anything but open and honest. Russia isn't a democracy. If you still believe you could have an honest and open discussion with Putin you're seriously mistaking. Btw, I'm not making an argument for not communicating with someone like Putin. But when you do - generally speaking - it's important to understand who you're dealing with. (to be able to see past the BS)

  On 12/7/2024 at 8:19 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

You expect openness and honesty from a representative of a government which locks up people who openly disagree with it? Or worse, kill them? (navalny) Being open and honest might be a recipe for death.

Perhaps you should start with understanding their intention behind getting rid of all opposition within their country. And do you believe their "nazi" argument behind their "special operation" was honest?

Look I realize it is an authoritarian government in Russia with respect to press freedom and to any opposition parties there have contact with or support from western governments. Lavrov talks about Nevalny in the interview btw. When tuckers asks him how he died, Lavrov replies 'I am not a doctor.' He even goes so far to imply that when Nevalny was evacuated to Germany that his health may have been tampered with there. Outrageous. Yes Russia still has stalinist tendencies. I get it, I realize that domestically in Russia there are real authoritarian policies that their citizens who oppose the government have to deal with and that it ain't pretty.

Again, when I said openness and honesty, I meant in relation to discussing what Russia's current policy is toward Ukraine and the west, and the comment from me that you quoted reflects that. He speaks honestly in the interview about what their intentions are when it comes to military escalation and also what their negotiating terms are. I do not like it any more than you do, but this conflict is not going to magically go away with Ukraine somehow regaining all of its territory and joining nato.

This conflict has not been great for Europe or its economy either, especially Germany and now France, whose government just did a vote of no confidence to oust their prime minister. All of this was instigated by the government budget in France. They are spending more than they are taking in, and they can't afford to foot the bill for hostilities in Ukraine, especially if Trump cuts off American contributions. If France wants to continue funding the war, then they are probably going to have to start cutting social services and cut spending on their own citizens. Trump met recently with Macron and Zelensky in Paris for the reopening of notre dame cathedral. I honestly hope that the discussion was geared toward trying to reach an end to the open warfare and de-escalation.

  On 12/7/2024 at 8:19 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

There's a big difference between empathising and believing people. And when listening to representatives like Lavrov, you need more than what they're saying at face value. Sure it's important to empathise and understand them. But if your starting assumption is that they'll be open and honest, you're making a big mistake.

Again, he's not having a talk with Carlson to be open and honest. He has an agenda. He's pushing Putins agenda. And Putins agenda is anything but open and honest. Russia isn't a democracy. If you still believe you could have an honest and open discussion with Putin you're seriously mistaking. Btw, I'm not making an argument for not communicating with someone like Putin. But when you do - generally speaking - it's important to understand who you're dealing with. (to be able to see past the BS)

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again, I get this completely, and as I suggested, the same things you say here are true of America and nato countries when it comes to war. You cannot take anything that they say at face value, but you can nevertheless analyze what they say officially and link it to their actions and their policies. Yes Lavrov has an agenda. So does America and nato in this conflict, and I believe that America and the western nato countries are more concerned with weakening Russia than they are with protecting Ukrainian democracy. If they truly believed that putin was going to start marching all throughout Europe then they would send their own militaries to Ukraine to stop him in his tracks. 

One example of where Lavrov speaks honestly in my opinion is at the very end of the interview. He says that John Kirby (who is national security communications advisor for biden admin) recently said that he is not too worried about nuclear escalation. That Kirby does not want to see escalation because use of nukes would devastate Europe. Lavrov remarks that he could tell from Kirby's remarks that the Americans have a mentality, a real belief, that if there is a nuclear exchange then America will come out of it unscathed, that it will only be Russia and europe who will be hit. I believe lavrov is accurate in this assumption, that this is what the people who are running biden's foreign policy honestly believe. They assume that they cannot be touched, and when people think this way they are liable to make reckless decisions which could potentially escalate to nuclear war.

This is why I believe it should be America's diplomats and our president and the secretary of defense, that they should all be having direct communications with their counterparts in Russia instead of refusing to speak to them. Lavrov talks about what diplomacy was like in previous administrations since fall of soviet union (Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, Trump), and even though with all of those admins the US-Russia relationship was still adversarial, at least there were open discussions and at least there was not a large scale proxy war that has been going on for three years now, with all signs pointing to the fact that Ukraine is going to be worse off at the end than at the beginning when America and nato made promises to support it until it was victorious.

Absolutely no reason why this conflict cannot be tamped down at this point. Both sides talking openly about nuclear exchanges is a disaster.

Some extra bonus BS from lavrov for decibal cooper to analyze 

what stage of the war is this? i like stanhope.. haven't watched it yet. gonna roll the dice eventually.

trump's pick for secretary of state asked about russia-ukraine policy (and some other things)

High level talks between US and Russia in Saudi Arabia, Zelensky excluded from these talks, but in one of the sources below it looks like US and Russian leaders and diplomats that Ukraine will be invited to the negotiations soon. Putin and Trump still have not met in person with nothing on the books as of now, but it looks like such a meeting is in the works.

https://apnews.com/article/us-russia-rubio-lavrov-ukraine-saudi-arabia-94bc4de5ecc86922d6ea4376e38f1cfd

  Quote

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) — Top U.S. and Russian officials had their most extensive high-level engagement since Moscow sent troops into Ukraine almost three years ago, meeting for four hours Tuesday before President Donald Trump suggested that Kyiv was to blame for the conflict.

Trump showed little patience for Ukraine’s objections to being excluded from the talks in Saudi Arabia. He said repeatedly that Ukraine’s leaders never should have allowed the conflict to begin, indicating Kyiv should have been willing to make concessions to Russia before it sent troops into Ukraine in 2022.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/feb/19/russia-ukraine-war-volodymyr-zelenskyy-vladimir-putin-donald-trump-europe-latest-news

  Quote

Trump told me Ukraine will take part in talks, Putin says

The Russian president is also quoted as saying that US president Donald Trump told him that Ukraine would take part in future peace talks.

He also reportedly said that he would be happy to meet Trump, but that meeting still needs to be prepared.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/zelenskyy-trump-putin-war-ukraine-russia-started-rcna192765

  Quote

KYIV, Ukraine — Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Wednesday hit back at Donald Trump's accusation that Ukraine started its war with Russia, saying that the American president is trapped in a “disinformation bubble” and adding that his country was not for sale.

The pugnacious response followed Trump’s surprising comments Tuesday that Ukraine was responsible for Russia’s invasion of the country three years ago. Trump also argued that Kyiv could have made a deal to avoid the conflict.

Trump blaiming all on Ukraine lol 

Here we go.. 

However I really want this war to end

  On 2/19/2025 at 5:22 PM, cern said:

Trump blaiming all on Ukraine lol 

Here we go.. 

However I really want this war to end

Same, really want it to end - glad that talks between the high level people have begun, but I also have a feeling that things can still go sideways for a ceasefire and that this is only the first step toward a finish line that is still very far ahead.

As someone who wants the war to end, I don't think there's a need to specify that you want the war to end, that's a given, unless you're a psycho, in which case you should probably preface your opinion by stating that you support eternal war. 

Anyway, Trump: mad king, going senile, dumb, ill informed, corrupt or just straight up evil? 

Probably all of the above. The western world has got to stop relying support from the US, turns out they've gone fucking insane. I hope Ukraine and Europe manage to pull through somehow.

  On 2/20/2025 at 5:40 PM, Silent Member said:

The western world has got to stop relying support from the US, turns out they've gone fucking insane. I hope Ukraine and Europe manage to pull through somehow.

What do you mean “gone”?! In what galaxy do you live? What’s new? People on the west have zero connection with the reality! And the EU higher powers’ leaders are the pinnacle of stupidity and impotence! 
 

The west is living in a movie; lying to them selves that we are the world, we are the children… killing and scheming the rest of the world and after 30 yrs of continuous lying, now everyone is shocked all of a sudden when it comes back to them? Faak me

They've started saying the evil shit out loud, and are actively sabotaging whatever western democracy means or stood for.

  On 2/20/2025 at 6:07 PM, Silent Member said:

They've started saying the evil shit out loud, and are actively sabotaging whatever western democracy means or stood for.

My dear friend, we’ve been living in a lie all along! Double standards are in the roots of the west and let us not pretend that our “democracy” holds a millimeter longer outside our economic interests. The bad shit is that we neither had the moral standards nor economic interests in the shit! The good thing is that we’re finally speaking what’s what 

imo

It seems that the negotiations are mostly about how to agree to get Ukraine to rollover and acquiesce to getting completely fucked over. + some sweet oil and natural resource deals

  On 2/20/2025 at 5:40 PM, Silent Member said:

As someone who wants the war to end, I don't think there's a need to specify that you want the war to end,

this is unfortunately necessary at times because there are a lot of reddit-ass morons and Ukraine flag twitter accounts out there who will take any kind of criticism of Zelensky or the psyop side of this war as implicit support for the Russians. it is perfectly possible to be critical of how the war is being spun while being firmly on the side of people who are simply defending themselves from invasion and oppression.

I for one resent the fact that this war is talked about as crucial for the west's security and wellbeing and is consequently presented as something the whole world must care about, while various other bloodier, longer-running conflicts around the world are not given a shit about. brown people kill each other all the time, who cares, but white people killing each other, well we can't have that. it's all about peace and humanity and virtue signaling so long as it's something the west is ideologically aligned with.

I know we should not have to talk about things in these terms at all (i.e. "my war is more important than your war") but people are stupid and self-centred and have limited attention spans, and that forces this type of conversation.

  On 2/21/2025 at 10:27 PM, Keyxox said:

 

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Ah the old "expansion of NATO caused the war" bollocks. Sachs' explanation of the NATO role in Kosovo is horseshit, and without the bombing (terrible as it was) the genocide perpetrated by the Serbs would have continued. As evidenced by Russia's aggression and then attack on Ukraine, former Soviet Bloc countries requesting membership to NATO is based on real concerns.

Anyhow, more germane to the current situation - Paul Krugman offers an economic viewpoint of current efforts to aid Ukraine (also includes Macron correcting Trump, which is always good to see).

https://substack.com/home/post/p-157900168?

  On 2/21/2025 at 6:34 AM, usagi said:

bloodier, longer-running conflicts around the world are not given a shit about.

Which bloodier, longer-running conflicts are not given a shit about?

Trump & Vance really shit the bed on this one.

https://time.com/7262883/trump-zelensky-meeting/

Yeah just seen this. 

  On 2/28/2025 at 8:23 PM, Silent Member said:

Trump & Vance really shit the bed on this one.

https://time.com/7262883/trump-zelensky-meeting/

jfc trump/vance are petulant little children. fucking assholes. 

  On 2/28/2025 at 8:57 PM, ignatius said:

jfc trump/vance are petulant little children. fucking assholes. 

I mean regardless of the details of the war, conscription, natos advances etc...this is insane treatment of a head of state in public. And they suck putins ass everytime. Zelensky whatever u think of him is a bigger dude than the other two combined. Gross.