Russia is now bombing Ukraine

  On 3/4/2025 at 10:08 AM, Ivy Zemura yvI oo ii oo said:

this "russian agent" narrative was tired back in trump's first term, and even more useless in his second.  this idea that republicans are going to "realize" anything they don't already know is even more naive.  too late for what?  they put him in office along with the rest of the american owning class.  they want him there

"they" is the american people?

I agree. Unless you're going for a "they"="american owning class". It's actually not the owning class who voted Trump in. Two times.

The "owning class" only started to kiss Trumps ass after it looked inevitable he'd be the next president. Both times. Second time it looked inevitable way earlier though. Thanks to Biden and the obliviousness of the Dems.

  On 3/3/2025 at 1:09 AM, chenGOD said:

You keep going on about the deal. There is no deal. There is only extortion.

You might laugh at the idea, but "the deal" included no guarantees from Putin. All it included was continuous extraction of resources from Ukraine.

And just in case you think this is some mendaciousness from the "mainstream media", the Kremlin has saved you the trouble:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/03/02/kremlin-says-us-foreign-policy-shift-aligns-with-its-own-vision-a88217

 

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Stick to the central issue at hand, how to bring the war to an end and stop the destruction and killing. The point of what trump admin is trying to do here, and what the zelensky press conference was all about, is getting the Ukraine and Russian heads of state (or their topmost diplomats) to a negotiating table in person. For all intents and purposes, that is the first part of 'the deal' - the mineral deal, at least the details that came out so far, is being proposed as a way for America to keep a real and large economic presence in the country that would be part of a larger security deal, backed by European countries, to cease hostilities and prevent them from happening in the future. Again, lots of things to be skeptical about here and nothing is finalized, but the point of all this from trump perspective is to get the stakeholders at a table together to see if a deal can be made. By the way, Zelensky still said he supports the mineral deal after that conference with trump, so that indicates that Ukraine is still receptive to this component of the deal.

With a few exceptions I still hold that you guys do not have a realistic view of this issue. You are all cheering on a brutal war of attrition that Ukraine has no chance of winning or even regaining any of the territory it lost. I despise US secretary of state rubio for his position on israel, but I agree with him on the Ukraine issue: he said he asked the European leaders what their plan is for bringing the war to a close, and one of them said basically 'let them continue fighting Russia for another year and then Russia is going to come to the table.' These people are mismanaging their own countries in Europe and they are perfectly okay with another year of this horror show, and there is no thought happening regarding how to end the war and preserve what is left of Ukraine.

I also think that you guys (with a few exceptions) are essentially the same. The issue seems fairly simple to me. There is a brutal and horrific WWI style war of attrition taking place, it has been going on for three years, there is no chance of Ukraine regaining territory unless Western countries send their own troops in to fight Russia (which would be a disaster in terms of escalation, and could even go nuclear). The Western countries hands are not clean in the decades long buildup to this war. The current central stakeholders are Russia, Ukraine, America, Europe (their political leaders, their constituents, their armed forces, etc.). These are the realities on the ground. Trump is the only leader here who is trying to get negotiations started.

What do you think is the best way to move forward here, given who the leaders are and where the conflict currently stands? I am talking about realistically moving forward, not some childish cartoon version of what the realities on the ground are, but what they actually are. How to end the war instead of blindly cheering on the western military-industrial-complex like a bunch of jive ass turkeys?

Interesting interview in Dutch paper with Velina Tchakarova. 

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2025/03/03/rusland-wil-een-nieuw-evenwicht-creeren-op-het-oude-continent-a4885041

It's in Dutch but here are some quotes in english:

  Quote

As an expert in strategic vision, Tchakarova has specialized in Vladimir Putin's long-term strategy. She founded her own think tank, FACE, in Austria. Before that, she was director of the Austrian Institute for European and Security Affairs AIES.

Tchakarova speaks Russian and reads Russian media. She was born and raised in Bulgaria 45 years ago, when the country was still part of the Soviet bloc. "Russia wages wars and military conflicts without any regard for human losses. For Moscow, geopolitical goals come first."

  Quote

Will Moscow agree to a ceasefire and what does Russia gain from it?

"Russia is prepared to agree to a ceasefire as a tactical move. To gain time, to replenish its troops, to strengthen its economy and to increase its global diplomatic influence. Russia will push for a ceasefire without binding peace conditions. And temporarily. Moscow will not give up its plans to continue the war in the long term. Russia aims for the complete subjugation of Ukraine. This means that with a ceasefire in 2025-2027, the war will continue after 2028-2030 when Moscow deems it necessary."

"A real peace agreement is unlikely. Unless Russia achieves key demands: no NATO membership for Ukraine, no US troops in Ukraine, recognition of all occupied territories and withdrawal of NATO to the 1997 borders."

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Is it more important for Russia to have the US end its sanctions and be accepted as a world leader than to make concessions to Kyiv?

“In Saudi Arabia, the negotiations were primarily about the future relationship between the United States and Russia. Ukraine is part of that. The Russian approach has two layers. One layer is about showing the world that they are not isolated and are on an equal footing with the US and China. The other layer is about a revisionist and imperialist view of the environment and the urge to control and subjugate it. Russia is out to destroy the post-Cold War European security order, because this order does not serve Russian interests.”

“By subjugating Ukraine, Russia is changing its geopolitical and economic weight within Europe. Economically, by having raw materials in Ukraine. It will change the balance in the Black Sea region. If it conquers Ukraine, it will be deeper in Europe, on the border with Romania, Hungary and Poland, which borders the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad. Russia does not plan to attack France or Germany. There is no need for that. It is about creating a new balance on the old continent. To show who has military muscle and who wants to use it. Moscow only thinks in terms of military means.”

“With its invasion on February 24, 2022, Russia deliberately started a war against the European security order. The Kremlin planned to subjugate Ukraine in three days. When they saw that this was not possible, they switched to a long war. It shows Russia's willingness to keep fighting. It is the Russian agenda for the next eight, ten, twelve years. I therefore do not expect lasting peace.”

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  Quote

While Trump is appeasing Russia, Putin and Xi Jinping have been calling each other to show the outside world their good relationship. How do China and Russia see each other?

“As equals. The Western narrative downplays this relationship by claiming that Russia is China’s junior partner. Russia is indeed economically weaker and is dependent on China for oil and gas exports, obtaining technology and circumventing Western sanctions. I look at it from a different perspective. Beijing needs Russia to gain access to resources in the Arctic. Russia is the only Arctic nation that is not a member of NATO. China is always afraid that it cannot secure enough resources.”

Some more bits on the geopolitics of the Artics here:

https://www.turkiyetoday.com/world/tchakarova-on-geopolitics-of-arctic-us-eu-divides-and-new-far-right-106701/

Surprised how much there is to do about the Artics. Wasn't aware of that. I thought Trump was joking about Canada and Greenland. Guess there's more to it.

  On 3/4/2025 at 12:55 PM, decibal cooper said:

Stick to the central issue at hand, how to bring the war to an end and stop the destruction and killing. The point of what trump admin is trying to do here, and what the zelensky press conference was all about, is getting the Ukraine and Russian heads of state (or their topmost diplomats) to a negotiating table in person. For all intents and purposes, that is the first part of 'the deal' - the mineral deal, at least the details that came out so far, is being proposed as a way for America to keep a real and large economic presence in the country that would be part of a larger security deal, backed by European countries, to cease hostilities and prevent them from happening in the future. Again, lots of things to be skeptical about here and nothing is finalized, but the point of all this from trump perspective is to get the stakeholders at a table together to see if a deal can be made. By the way, Zelensky still said he supports the mineral deal after that conference with trump, so that indicates that Ukraine is still receptive to this component of the deal.

With a few exceptions I still hold that you guys do not have a realistic view of this issue. You are all cheering on a brutal war of attrition that Ukraine has no chance of winning or even regaining any of the territory it lost. I despise US secretary of state rubio for his position on israel, but I agree with him on the Ukraine issue: he said he asked the European leaders what their plan is for bringing the war to a close, and one of them said basically 'let them continue fighting Russia for another year and then Russia is going to come to the table.' These people are mismanaging their own countries in Europe and they are perfectly okay with another year of this horror show, and there is no thought happening regarding how to end the war and preserve what is left of Ukraine.

I also think that you guys (with a few exceptions) are essentially the same. The issue seems fairly simple to me. There is a brutal and horrific WWI style war of attrition taking place, it has been going on for three years, there is no chance of Ukraine regaining territory unless Western countries send their own troops in to fight Russia (which would be a disaster in terms of escalation, and could even go nuclear). The Western countries hands are not clean in the decades long buildup to this war. The current central stakeholders are Russia, Ukraine, America, Europe (their political leaders, their constituents, their armed forces, etc.). These are the realities on the ground. Trump is the only leader here who is trying to get negotiations started.

What do you think is the best way to move forward here, given who the leaders are and where the conflict currently stands? I am talking about realistically moving forward, not some childish cartoon version of what the realities on the ground are, but what they actually are. How to end the war instead of blindly cheering on the western military-industrial-complex like a bunch of jive ass turkeys?

 

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there's not a single political entity right now which has a constructive and peaceful approach in mind. Everyone, down to Starmer, vd Leyen, Trump, Macron would like to get the piece of the pie and are working according to the instructions from their sponsors and are trying to save face now that their moistened anuses had been exposed.

In case of Trump, his pack of cronies ambushed Zelensky, and the cue to execute the ambush was the reporter who asked about Z's clothing ("He's a good guy" said Trump to the reporter in question). The goal was to undermine Z's position by bullying him into submission to accept USA's terms. The negotiations would happen without Z and without EU. It would be a deal between USA and Russia. And it's going to be a business deal. No politics or diplomacy here.

EU is in a fucked up situation, largely by its own making: our Brussels politicians were too long servants to the USA foreign policy and lost all autonomy, which is a disgrace of first order, and if you ask me, everyone from Stoltenberg, vd Leyen, Macron, Schultz, etc, should face criminal courts ASAP. WHY TF ARE THEY STILL CALLING THE SHOTS?!?!? The current situation is the result of USA foreign policy; to sever any prospect of cooperation between EU and Russia (that's before any Russian invasion, it's been ongoing ever since Putin came to power). Now the EU has to continue the war, because they're tied in a quite a clever knot: because USA shifted its face and abandoned EU, the EU cannot align to any of the options, because, on one hand it would have to cooperate (aka make its own deal) with Putin, the Aggressor, the image of which has been building up ever since Putin took power. And on the other hand, it can't continue to be fucked in the ass by USA because, well it's obvious why not. So now, EU has to save face by keeping up the appearances: continue the war and pour billions into Ukraine in what is probably the worst strategic decision ever, and frankly criminal to the bone.

I think the Ukr case is the most blatant and shameless case of a proxy war ever. People are dying and politicians and their handlers everywhere are rubbing their hands and counting their money. Ukr was pushed into a war and the campaign began at the point when it lost its nuclear arms.

I kind of feel sorry for Zelensky. At his election, he got pushed into a deal with the devil and now has to pay with his soul. You can see it on his face. I don't think Z knew what the end game was. I don't think he knew what was in store for him when he took the presidency. He never had friends, only opportunists who now show their true face: vultures. It's a fucking tragedy is what it is.

getting bad omens from this.

  23 hours ago, usagi said:

getting bad omens from this.

RAE named after the Autechre track? big if true

  On 3/4/2025 at 12:55 PM, decibal cooper said:

Stick to the central issue at hand, how to bring the war to an end and stop the destruction and killing. The point of what trump admin is trying to do here, and what the zelensky press conference was all about, is getting the Ukraine and Russian heads of state (or their topmost diplomats) to a negotiating table in person.

It's very easy. Russia withdraws all forces from Ukrainian territory as described prior to Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea and the Donbas. Russia guarantees Ukraine security. Ukraine as a sovereign nation, has the right to request entry into the defense treaty of its choosing (likely NATO).

Ukranian and Russian diplomats already held peace talks in 2022 in person, that could have given Putin almost exactly what he wanted, namely that Ukraine guarantee it never entered NATO. Foreign Affairs did a great job summarizing those rounds of talks.

Trump's policies have now guaranteed that America no longer is recognized as a trusted partner in anything (both defense and trade related), and instead have spurred the UE to increase defense spending as well as provide a one time investment on top of member states' individual spending. Further, as highlighted in that article, Trump's suspension of US military aid to Ukraine has worsened chances of peace and has increased the security risk in the EU (it's also ensured that the EU stop buying US military materiel as soon as possible, worsening the US economy and causing job losses in the defence sector but that's a different topic).

  On 3/4/2025 at 12:55 PM, decibal cooper said:

With a few exceptions I still hold that you guys do not have a realistic view of this issue. You are all cheering on a brutal war of attrition that Ukraine has no chance of winning or even regaining any of the territory it lost.

No one is cheering on the war. I do have a realistic view of who started it, and who can end it, very easily (hint, it is not the west, regardless of Mearsheimer's insistent chirping to the contrary). Your cheerleading for subjugating Ukrainian people to rule by Russian proxy is frankly appalling.

  On 3/4/2025 at 12:55 PM, decibal cooper said:

Trump is the only leader here who is trying to get negotiations started.

This is demonstrably false - and again, there is no deal. Zelensky said he would sign a deal that includes security guarantees - no such deal currently exists.

  On 3/4/2025 at 12:55 PM, decibal cooper said:

What do you think is the best way to move forward here

See the first paragraph in this response.

  22 hours ago, chenGOD said:

It's very easy. Russia withdraws all forces from Ukrainian territory as described prior to Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea and the Donbas. Russia guarantees Ukraine security. Ukraine as a sovereign nation, has the right to request entry into the defense treaty of its choosing (likely NATO).

Ukranian and Russian diplomats already held peace talks in 2022 in person, that could have given Putin almost exactly what he wanted, namely that Ukraine guarantee it never entered NATO. Foreign Affairs did a great job summarizing those rounds of talks.

Trump's policies have now guaranteed that America no longer is recognized as a trusted partner in anything (both defense and trade related), and instead have spurred the UE to increase defense spending as well as provide a one time investment on top of member states' individual spending. Further, as highlighted in that article, Trump's suspension of US military aid to Ukraine has worsened chances of peace and has increased the security risk in the EU (it's also ensured that the EU stop buying US military materiel as soon as possible, worsening the US economy and causing job losses in the defence sector but that's a different topic).

No one is cheering on the war. I do have a realistic view of who started it, and who can end it, very easily (hint, it is not the west, regardless of Mearsheimer's insistent chirping to the contrary). Your cheerleading for subjugating Ukrainian people to rule by Russian proxy is frankly appalling.

 

This is demonstrably false - and again, there is no deal. Zelensky said he would sign a deal that includes security guarantees - no such deal currently exists.

 

See the first paragraph in this response.

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It’s the same thing every time with you dude. You describe what you would like to happen instead of engaging with the reality. There is zero chance that Putin is going to withdraw. You do not understand how war works and you also do not seem to understand the stakes of war. You are moralizing. You present no realistic option and you restate inane and unrealistic Biden US State department talking points about how old Vlad should just see the light of day and do the right thing. Very pathetic. 

  23 hours ago, usagi said:

getting bad omens from this.

It would be nice if they had agreed to use this kind of financial instrument to deal with other issues like housing, healthcare, education, re-settling refugees etc, but here we are. If this proves successful maybe that's a possibility in future. Improving European social issues is the only way to halt the far right and pro-Putinists.

  22 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

engaging with the reality. There is zero chance that Putin is going to withdraw.

Your crystal ball told you this? The reality is before Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea and then the Donbas, there were no Russian troops in Ukraine territory. That state of affairs is very easy to restore.

  22 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

Very pathetic. 

What's pathetic is you making excuses justifying the invasion of a sovereign nation (contrary to Mearsheimer's assertions, Ukraine joining NATO posed no security nor existential threat to Russia, Ukraine had no offensive capability, so not even Mearsheimer's weak argument of "preventive war" holds water).

  22 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

You do not understand how war works and you also do not seem to understand the stakes of war.

Pray tell, what are these mysterious stakes of war that only your wizened personage can ascertain.

  22 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

It’s the same thing every time with you dude.

It's called a principled approach to reality, which involves not bending over for dictators (actual dictators, like Putin). What you are suggesting is not appeasement as was practiced by Chamberlain (done to buy time to build up allied military capacity, which had been far outstripped by German military industrial capacity in the interwar period), what you are suggesting is a complete capitulation to Russia's territorial gains, installation of a Russian puppet government in Ukraine, no reparations to be paid by Russia for their naked act of aggression, and no potential for prosecution of war crimes as those committed at Bucha and Irpin at the very least.

Every action and analysis of war has a moral component, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous. So please spare me the moralizing argument.

The stakes of the war is that human life on both sides is being needlessly sacrificed you fucking idiot. way better to do a deal and stop the carnage. The longer this war goes on the more lives and territory Ukraine will lose. It either ends with some kind of diplomatic settlement or Europe and America go toe to toe with the Russkis, which in my opinion would quickly escalate into a nuclear confrontation. 

By the same logic we should hand over Gaza to Israel. On a plate. Because it saves further carnage.

OK. I guess we live in a world where the powerful can get away with anything nowadays.

literally the bargain.

  22 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

The stakes of the war is that human life on both sides is being needlessly sacrificed you fucking idiot.

Those are not the stakes of war, that is the price of war. The stakes of war refers to advantages gained or lost as a result of military actions. For example, the stakes of war in Europe between 1939 and 1945 was rule by a fascist Nazi regime or the re-implementation of sovereignty and domestic determination of national direction.

  22 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

The longer this war goes on the more lives and territory Ukraine will lose.

Current most accurate estimates show Russia has lost more combatants than Ukraine, while of course Ukraine has lost many more civilians than Russia. Territory is hard to control, and the more resources Putin throws at controlling these territories, the more Russian people will suffer. Domestic policy may still play an important role in this.

  22 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

It either ends with some kind of diplomatic settlement or Europe and America go toe to toe with the Russkis, which in my opinion would quickly escalate into a nuclear confrontation. 

A diplomatic settlement is possible but unlikely, because Russia has shown that it is not to be trusted. America has just announced a halt to all aid to Ukraine, so obviously while Trump is President, America will not get involved. As indicated, Europe is ramping up domestic spending, and the proposed one-time package of 840billion Euros indicates Europe will take this seriously. This will not escalate into a nuclear confrontation because neither side will wish to rule over irradiated lands due to the lack of productivity from said lands. It will obviously result in more death and destruction, which is a heavy price to pay, but the stakes of bowing down to a dictator (likely imperialist) are too grave to consider.

Someone should do a "Luke, I am your father"-scene with Putin and Zelensky pasted over their heads.

I'm sorry but anyone who believes that some "deal" with Putin will magically end the conflict has watched too many hollywood happy ending movies. Putin can't be trusted to comply! this is what Zelensky keeps saying - you cannot trust anything coming from the Kremlin. they lie about almost everything, especially all the BS they feed to their own citizens. Putin will not stop until he believes he has achieved total victory, which is to permanently control the majority of the land belonging to Ukraine.

here's an article explaining why Putin won't simply pull the troops out in the event a ceasefire is reached. there's a real threat of social instability if all the troops return home without getting the $$$ that was promised to them:

https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/putin-unlikely-demobilize-event-ceasefire-because-he-afraid-his-veterans

  Quote

The Kremlin is very likely preparing to retain a mobilized military even if there is a ceasefire in Ukraine at least in part in order to evade the problem of reintegrating Russian veterans into Russian society.

  On 3/4/2025 at 12:55 PM, decibal cooper said:

Stick to the central issue at hand, how to bring the war to an end and stop the destruction and killing. The point of what trump admin is trying to do here, and what the zelensky press conference was all about, is getting the Ukraine and Russian heads of state (or their topmost diplomats) to a negotiating table in person. For all intents and purposes, that is the first part of 'the deal' - the mineral deal, at least the details that came out so far, is being proposed as a way for America to keep a real and large economic presence in the country that would be part of a larger security deal, backed by European countries, to cease hostilities and prevent them from happening in the future. Again, lots of things to be skeptical about here and nothing is finalized, but the point of all this from trump perspective is to get the stakeholders at a table together to see if a deal can be made. By the way, Zelensky still said he supports the mineral deal after that conference with trump, so that indicates that Ukraine is still receptive to this component of the deal.

With a few exceptions I still hold that you guys do not have a realistic view of this issue. You are all cheering on a brutal war of attrition that Ukraine has no chance of winning or even regaining any of the territory it lost. I despise US secretary of state rubio for his position on israel, but I agree with him on the Ukraine issue: he said he asked the European leaders what their plan is for bringing the war to a close, and one of them said basically 'let them continue fighting Russia for another year and then Russia is going to come to the table.' These people are mismanaging their own countries in Europe and they are perfectly okay with another year of this horror show, and there is no thought happening regarding how to end the war and preserve what is left of Ukraine.

I also think that you guys (with a few exceptions) are essentially the same. The issue seems fairly simple to me. There is a brutal and horrific WWI style war of attrition taking place, it has been going on for three years, there is no chance of Ukraine regaining territory unless Western countries send their own troops in to fight Russia (which would be a disaster in terms of escalation, and could even go nuclear). The Western countries hands are not clean in the decades long buildup to this war. The current central stakeholders are Russia, Ukraine, America, Europe (their political leaders, their constituents, their armed forces, etc.). These are the realities on the ground. Trump is the only leader here who is trying to get negotiations started.

What do you think is the best way to move forward here, given who the leaders are and where the conflict currently stands? I am talking about realistically moving forward, not some childish cartoon version of what the realities on the ground are, but what they actually are. How to end the war instead of blindly cheering on the western military-industrial-complex like a bunch of jive ass turkeys?

 

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yo. i'm ready to rub my nuts on your vinyl collection and i want an answer - do you accept my deal?

(seriously, it amazes me that you're this entrenched in this pro-trump narrative. every point here is rooted in disinformation going back as far as the 2016 trump era. my point about the deal is serious. what is your take on that?)

  20 hours ago, Dragon said:

yo. i'm ready to rub my nuts on your vinyl collection and i want an answer - do you accept my deal?

(seriously, it amazes me that you're this entrenched in this pro-trump narrative. every point here is rooted in disinformation going back as far as the 2016 trump era. my point about the deal is serious. what is your take on that?)

You are a bitch made warmongering fucking retard is my opinion of you 

I just want peace, man.

the peacemaker* over here

*mr cooper

lets use hollywood logic to solve global issues! 

#americuhfuckyeah!

  19 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

You are a bitch made warmongering fucking retard is my opinion of you 

You tout "pragmatism" as if it should trump most other things here.  There's a time & place to be pragmatic but now is not that time or place.

Maybe ask the Ukrainians if they want to be pragmatic about this whole kerfuffle?  If someone is willing to fight and die for their country and family, is that a time to be pragmatic?

Apologies @Dragon - I did hit the ignore button on this thread before you made your snide comment, but it still showed up in my notifications. That’s no excuse for being mean on my part but it is so infuriating to me when ppl think that this war is some kind of reality television show or sports match or like it some kind of cable news political show with the in depth analysis - also very weird to me that arguing for a ceasefire of a major war gets ppl so pissed off on here. Any way please do not bait me by quoting me in the political threads haha. I can’t trust myself to not respond, thought I could but I cannot, very pathetic for me. Need a break from this place for a while. Until I return you warmongers have fun with the analysis and so forth, adieu

  18 hours ago, EdamAnchorman said:

You tout "pragmatism" as if it should trump most other things here.  There's a time & place to be pragmatic but now is not that time or place.

Maybe ask the Ukrainians if they want to be pragmatic about this whole kerfuffle?  If someone is willing to fight and die for their country and family, is that a time to be pragmatic?

Yes when there is absolutely no chance for victory in this case without there being a nuclear Holocaust then I would consider pragmatism lol, I would consider peace and ceasefire so that the Russians do not end up taking more of their country. Okay this was the last one adieu again 

EU just announced $840 billion plan to re-arm europe. 

https://www.newsweek.com/eu-rearm-europe-plan-billions-2039139