france bans the face veil/burqa

  On 4/12/2011 at 4:23 PM, keltoi said:

no law against ninjas as far as i know

I don't think the law makes specifc reference to burqas, that was just one of the justifications. The law simply makes it illegal to cover your face in public, so ninjas would be covered too. Head scarves and most hijab are fine, its the covering of the face as it goes against the value sof the republic.

I have to say I agree with it. But on the other hand I wouldn't be able to don my burqa and steal the whole salmon from the local waitrose if it was introduced in this country. Conflicted. And I know this makes me sound like a reactionary twat, but I hope the people campaigning against the law will also be campaigning for the right of women to wear bikinis in arab countries. At all times, no matter how inappropriate. And for me to be allowed to hang around outside the local boys brigade hut flashing my jubblies at prepubescent boys because I have fantastical beliefs that compel me to do so. Every culture draws the line somewhere. Sarkozy may be an opportunist but I think it's right for France to say we're a secular republic and covering your face in public is not acceptable.

I think this is wrong because it posits the banning of something as some kind of solution.

Let us say that men born in the 40's and 50's are socially pressured to have short hair. A more 'enlightened' political majority doesn't come into power and 'liberate' everyone from their short hair. People just push the envelope. That is how social change happens. From the people themselves.

  On 4/12/2011 at 4:50 PM, Obel said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 4:30 PM, eugene said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 3:56 PM, disparaissant said:

i'd like both to weigh in, i hear the elephant is a raging islamophobe

 

f'realz though i think it's stupid to wear a face covering because an invisible sky man wants you to but i wont begrudge you the right to do something stupid, so wahey.

 

this is an easy "i'm a liberal, so fuck you !" answer. this isn't just about simple stupidity, it is inherently evil, a culture that celebrates oppression of women and exploits a backing of modern democracy. moreover, it persuades those women that they should be ashamed of revealing themselves which is even more fucked up imo. i find it comparable to the ban on foot binding in china where many women ignored it and continued binding their foot in secret because they were just culturally wired that way. basically "freedom of speech" shouldn't be taken as a dogma, there's a lot to discuss..

 

 

a disclaimer for twats that'll go "you wacist !!11!one " - i have exactly the same opinion on our own ultra orthodox jews and their ways.. bus lines where women must sit in the back and all that jazz..

 

See, I'm with you on the oppression of women thing and I personally hate the idea of the burqa. I just don't think government should be able to ban things to that degree, if people want to buy into a religion that makes them out to be shit then it's still their call.

how about children that are born in hardline muslim families ? they might have some kind of choice later on if they're lucky to be born in france or somewhere like that, but they spent their childhood learning that women are shit. those children are probably those women that are protesting the ban now.

  On 4/12/2011 at 4:58 PM, Salvatorin said:

I think this is wrong because it posits the banning of something as some kind of solution.

 

This is another point that's cropped up in a few discussions I've seen on it.

So there are two types of people who wear the niqab/burqa. Those who choose to, and those who are forced to.

If you choose to, you've now had your freedoms restricted.

If you are forced to, what are the odds you'll actually be able to leave the house now?

This isn't helping anyone.

Im just glad Joseph Merrick wasnt born 100 odd years later. Poor cunt had enough to contend with.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:01 PM, disparaissant said:

This is another point that's cropped up in a few discussions I've seen on it.

So there are two types of people who wear the niqab/burqa. Those who choose to, and those who are forced to.

If you choose to, you've now had your freedoms restricted.

If you are forced to, what are the odds you'll actually be able to leave the house now?

This isn't helping anyone.

Dont bring reason into this binary argument, god dam it.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:00 PM, eugene said:

how about children that are born in hardline muslim families ? they might have some kind of choice later on if they're lucky to be born in france or somewhere like that, but they spent their childhood learning that women are shit. those children are probably those women that are protesting the ban now.

dude every woman learns this to some degree or another.

i was raised mormon, women are shit to mormons too.

women are shit to the vast majority of organized religions.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:00 PM, eugene said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 4:50 PM, Obel said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 4:30 PM, eugene said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 3:56 PM, disparaissant said:

i'd like both to weigh in, i hear the elephant is a raging islamophobe

 

f'realz though i think it's stupid to wear a face covering because an invisible sky man wants you to but i wont begrudge you the right to do something stupid, so wahey.

 

this is an easy "i'm a liberal, so fuck you !" answer. this isn't just about simple stupidity, it is inherently evil, a culture that celebrates oppression of women and exploits a backing of modern democracy. moreover, it persuades those women that they should be ashamed of revealing themselves which is even more fucked up imo. i find it comparable to the ban on foot binding in china where many women ignored it and continued binding their foot in secret because they were just culturally wired that way. basically "freedom of speech" shouldn't be taken as a dogma, there's a lot to discuss..

 

 

a disclaimer for twats that'll go "you wacist !!11!one " - i have exactly the same opinion on our own ultra orthodox jews and their ways.. bus lines where women must sit in the back and all that jazz..

 

See, I'm with you on the oppression of women thing and I personally hate the idea of the burqa. I just don't think government should be able to ban things to that degree, if people want to buy into a religion that makes them out to be shit then it's still their call.

 

how about children that are born in hardline muslim families ? they might have some kind of choice later on if they're lucky to be born in france or somewhere like that, but they spent their childhood learning that women are shit. those children are probably those women that are protesting the ban now.

Bringing up children is a bit of a cheap tactic to ellicit an emotional reaction, but my response remains the same unfortunately. It fucking sucks that parents are happy to indoctrinate their kids with whatever beliefs they have before they can even be of age to make their own informed opinions, but I still feel that banning clothing is an attack on free speech.

My only hope is that like other religions as time goes on the more ridiculous parts of their systems die out, but I think banning burqa's is more likely to incite violent reactions. Pathetic as that sounds...

  On 4/12/2011 at 4:40 PM, Iain C said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 4:36 PM, eugene said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 4:30 PM, Iain C said:

it is a stupid, reactionary, anti-feminist law designed to appease right-wing fuckheads and neo-nazis (France is full of 'em). Sarkozy is a toad.

 

i can see a possible argument behind other points but how is it anti-feminist ?

 

imposing a diktat (primarily backed by male politicians and a patriarchal, authoritarian political order) on a woman's right to dress how she chooses in public seems anti-feminist to me. what's more, it criminalises the very women who it ironically proclaims to be "victims".

spot on, its just as bad to say you cant wear this as it is to say you have to wear it, it removes all discussion and feeds Europe's and america fear of islam and islamic people making there own choices.

also, now these women can't wear burqua's this also means they cant leave there own homes.

and anyone who says "anyone could be under a burqa" is a idiot, its like banning football because of a football hooligans, if someone wants to bomb somewhere they'll do it and you can't really stop them.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:03 PM, disparaissant said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:00 PM, eugene said:

how about children that are born in hardline muslim families ? they might have some kind of choice later on if they're lucky to be born in france or somewhere like that, but they spent their childhood learning that women are shit. those children are probably those women that are protesting the ban now.

dude every woman learns this to some degree or another.

i was raised mormon, women are shit to mormons too.

women are shit to the vast majority of organized religions.

aren't women just considered shit all over the world weather they're muslim, mormon or from australia?

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:10 PM, funkaholic said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:03 PM, disparaissant said:

dude every woman learns this to some degree or another.

i was raised mormon, women are shit to mormons too.

women are shit to the vast majority of organized religions.

 

aren't women just considered shit all over the world weather they're muslim, mormon or from australia?

yeh that was my point, the religion thing was just to kind of throw out there that just because someone is raised a certain way does not in any way mean they buy into it.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:03 PM, disparaissant said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:00 PM, eugene said:

how about children that are born in hardline muslim families ? they might have some kind of choice later on if they're lucky to be born in france or somewhere like that, but they spent their childhood learning that women are shit. those children are probably those women that are protesting the ban now.

dude every woman learns this to some degree or another.

i was raised mormon, women are shit to mormons too.

women are shit to the vast majority of organized religions.

Yeah. They have to either escape or have a revolution that comes from within their community, not some change legislated by the gov't.

i'm surprised at the poll results. watmm is not as liberal as i thought.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:04 PM, Obel said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:00 PM, eugene said:

 

how about children that are born in hardline muslim families ? they might have some kind of choice later on if they're lucky to be born in france or somewhere like that, but they spent their childhood learning that women are shit. those children are probably those women that are protesting the ban now.

 

Bringing up children is a bit of a cheap tactic to ellicit an emotional reaction, but my response remains the same unfortunately. It fucking sucks that parents are happy to indoctrinate their kids with whatever beliefs they have before they can even be of age to make their own informed opinions, but I still feel that banning clothing is an attack on free speech.

 

My only hope is that like other religions as time goes on the more ridiculous parts of their systems die out, but I think banning burqa's is more likely to incite violent reactions. Pathetic as that sounds...

nah, i wasn't trying to go for emo arguments, the point is that there's much less choice than it seems to people who aren't familiar with basics of anthropology and socialization. i just don't believe that those who protest the ban went into islam on their own will..(needs some citations obviously but i'll keep it on this lvl for now.)

You should always be wary of the politics of victimhood. If it was practical to ban scousers and celts I would.

I think it's a terrible idea. I’m not sure if you can legislate against a religious practice without essentially legislating against the entire religion, which is a rather big thing to do. I really don’t see where this is coming from and I don’t know why you would want this sort of law. Are muslim women threatening to anyone? Or are they really begging to be freed from this oppression? Is this any place for the government to intervene?

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:26 PM, Coalbucket PI said:

I really don’t see where this is coming from and I don’t know why you would want this sort of law. Are muslim women threatening to anyone? Or are they really begging to be freed from this oppression? Is this any place for the government to intervene?

it's about politics. sarkozy is terrified of losing votes to the front national and other far-right groups in france. this is his way of clawing some votes back from frightened boneheads.

see-through burqas would fix this mess

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:33 PM, keltoi said:

see-through burqas would fix this mess

LOL! what about a burqa with a womans body printed on it?

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:28 PM, Iain C said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:26 PM, Coalbucket PI said:

I really don’t see where this is coming from and I don’t know why you would want this sort of law. Are muslim women threatening to anyone? Or are they really begging to be freed from this oppression? Is this any place for the government to intervene?

 

it's about politics. sarkozy is terrified of losing votes to the front national and other far-right groups in france. this is his way of clawing some votes back from frightened boneheads.

I think that's definitely true but I haven't even seen the government try to pass off any excuse for this, you'd think they'd need some justification to get any support

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:26 PM, Coalbucket PI said:

Or are they really begging to be freed from this oppression?

i think the right question to ask is are they able to protest their oppression without serious repercussions.

but yeah, the question whether they feel oppressed is interesting..quite possible that they might not, perhaps they feel some sort of fulfillment following laws of islam and all. but i believe the obligation of a state that considers itself a patron of freedoms is to offer those freedoms and to be able to actually provide them for those willing to take them. protecting those middle-age enclaves against criticism for the sake of freedom of speech and religion just seems wrong to me.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:46 PM, eugene said:

protecting those middle-age enclaves against criticism for the sake of freedom of speech and religion just seems wrong to me.

there's criticism, and then there's arresting/fining/"re-educating" people for wearing something. there's a difference.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:41 PM, funkaholic said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:33 PM, keltoi said:

see-through burqas would fix this mess

 

LOL! what about a burqa with a womans body printed on it?

i'd settle for see-through from the neck down

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:55 PM, Iain C said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:46 PM, eugene said:

protecting those middle-age enclaves against criticism for the sake of freedom of speech and religion just seems wrong to me.

 

there's criticism, and then there's arresting/fining/"re-educating" people for wearing something. there's a difference.

i'm somewhat alarmed by how many right wingers i know who are like YEAH RIGHT ON

i mean if you get caught wearing a burqa/niqab you literally have to take a citizenship class

it's reeducation by the state

totally 1984

except i guess since it's those damn muslims it's okay? well who's next?

  On 4/12/2011 at 6:18 PM, disparaissant said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:55 PM, Iain C said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:46 PM, eugene said:

protecting those middle-age enclaves against criticism for the sake of freedom of speech and religion just seems wrong to me.

 

there's criticism, and then there's arresting/fining/"re-educating" people for wearing something. there's a difference.

i'm somewhat alarmed by how many right wingers i know who are like YEAH RIGHT ON

i mean if you get caught wearing a burqa/niqab you literally have to take a citizenship class

it's reeducation by the state

totally 1984

except i guess since it's those damn muslims it's okay? well who's next?

At least we don't let them cut the hands off thieves and stone homosexuals to death...even though they want to...because it's their culture...and that's immutable, right?

  On 4/12/2011 at 6:37 PM, acidphakist said:

At least we don't let them cut the hands off thieves and stone homosexuals to death...even though they want to...because it's their culture...and that's immutable, right?